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Antagonism towards your Objectivism

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raptix

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We all have to deal with irrational people, so what methods or advice do you have to further your own self-interests?

For example, every individual in my family gains their morality from society, I for now, have to live with them, yes I do have a choice, yet it'll mean to move out and pay rent elsewhere which will slow my progress on other more important matters, so this subject has little weight on my interests in terms of significance. I don't comment on any issue they ask me to opine on, or offer my real views and simply say I don't know enough about it, I'm not evading reality because I know just how they are philosophically (position wise) and how they'd react to my unpopular views (that is: with great antagonism). To me such antagonism can create hostility or by itself close walls between them doing me favors, or trading me values that they otherwise would.

Hostility is not a value gained in my situation, these are people who'd reply to my ideas with "you're too extreme" "you're arogant" "you need to be open minded", etc.

So I've made the choice to live with others. That's how I deal with them, they're obviously not Objectivists.

What do you do? Offer your stories, tell us even if you're very explicitly Objectivist and have gotten into massive debates, even if others will frown at you, share such stories (ie: wife kiccking you out).

I think alot of us need food for thought on this issue, wherever we can get it from, dealing with others who are irrational is a learning curve that, in our lifetime, has no end -- and most importantly its almost an imperative we pretty much can't avoid.

Edited by raptix
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How I would handle any given discussion is contextual to the person, place, subject and time. I generally have no reservations about discussing my views with most folks, even if it will cause unease, anger, bitterness, whatever. However, there are times and places (frequently at work) where sharing the particulars of my views would likely put me at odds with the rules and policies of the organization I work for. In those times, I might generally say, "I don't care to discuss that at this time."

One time I got into a discussion with a co-worker (away from work) about religion and atheism. I was slightly shocked at first that he reacted so poorly, as if my stating that I was an atheist was an assault on his choice to believe in a god. There was nothing in the manner in which I said that that should have prompted such reaction. Additionally, the years of his observations of my character and actions didn't lead him to believe I was an evil person, but now all of a sudden he starts to think I may be... LOL!! After some conversation, I was able to belay his fears and calm his concern that I was not asailing his belief system (even though I was in a sense during our conversation, but in a very diplomatic way). He still said I'm going to hell, but that was no surprise.

However, I have had a number of conversations with other people that were quite amicable. There are quite few people out there who don't think it's right to be "judgemental", even when I think they should be. Conversing with them tends to be less confrontational, but then I don't expect to make any progress either. It takes a lot to break the through the mish-mash of a philosophy that they use to guide their lives.

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I usually do not start talking about my views out of the blue, because I know not many people here would agree with even a small portion of them. However, if the subject comes up and we are discussing something like politics or education I will give my opinion on it, and then try to explain to the person in question why I think this and this is a good thing, and why the current situation doesn't work.

Especially at first it is very difficult to go against the mainstream thought, because it is not likely to be easy, but by now I could never go back to ignoring things like this; that alternative would cost me far more than standing by my principles ever would. This is, I think, the main reason why I do defend them when I think there is some point to it. Some people are simply not open to reason, so it's better to just say something like "I don't agree", instead of trying to explain your position on the subject.

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I used to debate a lot in the beginning, but now I am content to mostly let people believe whatever they want. Sometimes its hard to resist getting in to the debate though. I have never understood it, but a lot of people are afraid of new ideas. And Objectivism challenges nearly every fundamental premise of modern society, so you can't expect people to be happy to hear it.

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Usually it's not in my interest or time to get into "debates" with other people about Objectivism or politics in general. I try to lead by example, not by spouting empty slogans.

My family isn't hostle, but I don't wear my philosophy on my sleeve. People in class or school actually think it's interesting whenever it comes up; my left-of-center classmates think of me as a libertarian and it's fun to disarm them sometimes using philosophical detection every now and then. I have a colleague who is a spitting image of Peter Keating, actually.

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The only time I ever identify myself as an Objectivist to people is when I'm explaining something Objectivism-related that I do: "I was talking about this issue on Oo.net, oh, that's Objectivism online, Objectivism's a philosophy . . .", about like someone else might explain that they "met someone down at First Christian, that's a church . . ." (I explain my hobbies the same way.) Otherwise, I express my views without giving background of that sort. You're never going to express a system of ideas in casual conversation with people that aren't close to you.

As for family members, I discuss ideas very energetically with the intellecual ones, and otherwise I have almost zero relationship with the others; we have precisely the closeness that I'd have with my coworkers if I knew them for a similar period of time.

I will outright, boldly and unapologetically identify myself as an atheist if people are talking smack about atheists, though, but only at work, where conversations of this kind are inappropriate and against company policy, to boot; it's my way of saying, "You know, you were just extremely insulting and indiscreet, and if I were the angry type you could lose your job over those comments. Zip it." It really amazes me how little they think before spouting off wherever and whenever.

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I will outright, boldly and unapologetically identify myself as an atheist if people are talking smack about atheists....

I rarely do that as, sadly, all too often non-Objectivist atheists - or at least the more visible ones - are of the nihilist variety and, as a result, I can fully understand why many people regard them with contempt. It is normal for people to tend to paint with too large a brush based on their own first hand experiences and stereotypes - a stereotype which, in this case, is unfortunately well deserved. All to many atheists have a beef with religion not because of any serious intellectual disagreements but rather because they resent the fact that people find value in it and that they are serious about living what they regard as a virtuous life.

I would take a typical rank and file church going Christian over a Madeline Murray O'Hare style nihilist any day of the week - the Christian is much more likely to be benevolent, rational and in pursuit of the achievement of values while the nihilist only seeks to bring everyone down to his level of misery. I know and have known a great many religious people for whom I have a great deal of respect. But when it comes to nihilists - well, I have nothing but contempt for such people.

As for those who attack atheists for other reasons - well, I pretty much ignore such comments as I rather doubt that anything I say will convince them.

As for discssing Objectivism, there is an old saying that one should "never discuss religion and politics." Add "controversial philosophical issues" to the list and I think it is a pretty wise piece of advice or general social and business situations. Certainly there is a time and place for such discussions: when people are actually interested in what you have to say on such subjects. When they are not, there is no point in discussing them. Plus, by focusing the conversation on subjects that one does not have in common with the other person, one misses out on the potential enjoyment that might be gained by discussing what one does have in common.

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Only one of my siblings that lives with us know we are studying Objectivism and that we are atheist. When my mom was visiting for a few months earlier this year I didn't even use the term, and when we went to the local Objectivist meetup group I just mentioned she probably wouldn't enjoy it because a lot of the people there were atheists. (She doesn't even know I am an atheist. We have agreed to not discuss religion too much any more.)

She is coming to visit for a few more months later this week since my sister is due to have her baby later this month. We just bought a new bookcase, and my husband and I just put up a bunch of books up. Including all of our Rand fiction and Objectivism books on the shelves, on the same shelf with a couple of bibles. (Hey, I like to keep books I have read...what can I say?)

Anyway... we will be gone for a week after she arrives on vacation. I am sure she will peruse the book shelf and ask many questions when I get back. I thought about keeping the books in my bedroom, but even though I am not ready to say I am 100% Objectivist yet, I am tired of not having out in the open. I decided I won't discourage her if she want's to come to the next meetup after we get back, but lay it on the line what it is about. If she doesn't ask, I will leave it alone.

I have thought of sending some of my siblings some info, but I am not really sure how to go about doing that. They all live so far away, and it seems wierd to share it with people when you don't normally have regular communications with them except for family reunions.

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It´s quite funny to see how do you have problems with hiding your religious stands. I don´t have such troubles in my country. It´s normal to be an atheist in Czech Republic and it´t rather odd to believe in god. At least I get in touch almost just with atheists - I don´t know about anyone in my last class who wasn´t. :P If someone believe in god here, it´s probable that he does not do so much strongly (i.e. he does not go to church, doen´t read bible and so on). Some research that was done here showed that just 1/3 of people say they believe in god and the number is getting smaller (christians are mostly old people) - it´s maybe only one good vestige of communism. What is important too is that religion has little impact in public issues. I hope you envy me now. :P

But I have different problems with objectivism here. It´s hard to say that I think that the capitalism is good, that selfishness is virtue, that someone should not sacrifice oneself for others and so on. The worst case is probably with capitalism - socialistic way of thinking is too much rooted in Czech Republic. :thumbsup:

My way of dealing with the problem is not speaking about any philosophical issue with those that are not opened to rational discussion - that means with majority of people. :(

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It´s quite funny to see how do you have problems with hiding your religious stands. I don´t have such troubles in my country.

I think it really depends on what part of the country you are in, in the US, and also what type of religion you are dealing with as well. My mom is one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I was for many, many years. You don't just leave that religion. You have to very careful fade from it if you want to save your family humilation.

(But that was long ago, and would be anothe thread...so back on topic I guess!)

I don't really care if most people find out I am an atheist, I don't make a big deal about it, but don't hide it either...with the exception of my mom. But I have been inspired by our lovely IKEA bookcase...so maybe that will change this trip...maybe not.

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It´s normal to be an atheist in Czech Republic and it´t rather odd to believe in god[...] it´s maybe only one good vestige of communism.

[...]

My way of dealing with the problem is not speaking about any philosophical issue with those that are not opened to rational discussion - that means with majority of people. :P

So Czechs are not atheists because they are rational, but because of communism?
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So Czechs are not atheists because they are rational, but because of communism?
Communism [uSSR] worked during its time to destroy as much religion as possible. Before the time of USSR, religion was very common. Nowadays, post-communist countries have very little of it, and it mostly stays with elder people. So, it basically fades away currently.
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Communism [uSSR] worked during its time to destroy as much religion as possible. Before the time of USSR, religion was very common. Nowadays, post-communist countries have very little of it, and it mostly stays with elder people. So, it basically fades away currently.

In Poland, back in the day, those secret anti-communist/anti-government gatherings were held in Churches. To this day Poland is 90%+ Catholic. One of the reasons I do not live there.

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In person, I take a similar tactic as some above. If a conversation warrants my input, I'll give my opinion, which is often quite different than anyone else's. I try to put it in a way that invites developmental questions (those that require more than a yes/no response).

If I get the opportunity to elaborate, I stay as succint as I can. I'll usually throw in a little philosophical foundation and O'ist plug:

"I disagree with your notion that militant Muslims aren't evil people. The reason you can't figure out what should be done about terrorism is because you think it's not your right to judge people as evil. It is your right, though. As an Objectivist, I believe that a person must always exercise rational judgment according to what he sees right in front of him. Terrorists initiate lethal force against people in an attempt to conquer them. This is evil, and can only be dealt with one way: delivering their violence back to them tenfold."

Don't be antagonistic; just explain your position and calmly know that as far as you've figured, you're right. (Just be right!) Eventually, those that care about issues or politics or ideas will come to you and ask, "You've got an interesting take on things. What do you think about ...?" If you engage in a productive conversation - succintly implanting Objectivist ideas efficiently and logically - you'll get their gears moving. If this has happened three or four times, and they haven't tried to scratch your eyeballs out, it's time to pick out an appropriate Rand work and buy it for them.

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So Czechs are not atheists because they are rational, but because of communism?

Yes, such is the case. Communists tried to eliminate religion because it was some kind of competition. But they did not succeed in some countries (e.g. Poland). In Czech Republic they did quite a good job and left this country with many atheists (If I remember it well, Czech Republic is one of the least religious countries - maybe even the least one). It has one great advantage and it is that when I discus philosophical issues I don´t need to refute their religious believes firstly and there are not many cases when someone say that he just believe in something and have no other reason for his opinion.

There is something about the history of communism in Czechoslovakia. Notice that it is history of Czechoslovakia so the statistics at the end does not hold for Czech Republic (I Slovakia is much more religious people than in Czech Republic - it´s probably due to the fact that Slovakia is more rural than Czech Republic and religion preserved better in the country than in cities). And it´s 15 years old so the rate changed with the passing years too.

Edited by Blinky
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You can see from alot of the Economics Eastern Europe has adopted, that you can persuade an Atheist through rhetoric much easier than a Theist.

I'm trying to remember my geography though, Czech Republic isn't really that "Eastern" its kind of middle of Europe.

*Googles for a map.

Edited by raptix
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I find myself to be very open about my beliefs. I have talked to many friends, co-workers, family members and random encounters about the subject. I even post bulletins on my Myspace page with quotes from Ayn Rand or writings from myself about Objectivism asking for my many random friends' opinion (I'm guessing everyone knows what Myspace is, being the craze it is now :lol: ). I'm not being some weirdo trying to convert every person they see, I wouldn't waste my time, I am just happy to bring it up when a subject I can relate it to is being discussed (which is often). I enjoy doing this because I get to hear every possible alternative and anti-Objectivist arguments I can; this helps me with future debates, keep an open mind, gain pride in Objectivism vs. other belief systems, and furthers my search of someone that can change my mind about Objectivism (Which at this point, seems like it will have to be God himself coming down to discuss my misunderstandings :confused: )

As long as it wont get you in trouble, I highly recommend all of you do the same if you have the time and feel you can keep it at more of a debate or discussion level and not so much a violent argument (some people just can't handle it, and you are just wasting your time). It really is a great learning experience whether it requires me to do more research on a certain topic, or it helps me further understand the reasons people cling onto the many irrational beliefs out there. You can never learn enough.

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As an Objectivist, I focus my life around rational goals and then work to achieve them. Any sane person is not going to get mad at me for this. I don't see how being an Objectivist is going to get you into too much conflict.

I have to disagree. As an Objecitivst:

1- You judge people. The people you judge poorly will resent you (though they deserve your judgment) - they have been convinced that if they don't judge, they earn a right not to be judged.

2- You take a moral stance on issues. People who want to evade reality will hate you for standing up for what is right, for stating in ways they can understand exactly why they are wrong. They don't want to be right, they just want you to be wrong too. In fact they may settle only for your admission that you could be wrong. If you are an Objectivist they won't even get that - and will hate you for it.

3- You will get things done and will be happy. People will envy you for it. They will be horrified that such a person (extremist, unforgiving, atheist, whatever aspect of Objectivism irks them) can be happy.

I've had all of these reactions in the one year I've been an Objectivist. And much more in the past, since I lived by most of Objectivism's principles even before putting conscious thought into philosophy.

mrocktor

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