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Suppose you are taking the buss, and in the middle of nowhere-you-know you see in the street what you think might be the man/woman of your dreams (judging by the way they walk, their look in the eyes and expression).

Would you attempt to get off the buss and chase them, or just keep on riding and tell yourselves it was probably not as good as it looked?

I am quite confident almost all people would choose option B, and I wondered why.

Anyone's got an answer?

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Suppose you are taking the buss, and in the middle of nowhere-you-know you see in the street what you think might be the man/woman of your dreams (judging by the way they walk, their look in the eyes and expression).

Would you attempt to get off the buss and chase them, or just keep on riding and tell yourselves it was probably not as good as it looked?

I am quite confident almost all people would choose option B, and I wondered why.

Anyone's got an answer?

This is an interesting question. Personally, I think that even if I were in a position in which it would be easy to approach the woman of my dreams, I would be reluctant to do so. I'm not sure if I'm ready to meet her. But, then.. that depends on which specific dreams you're talking about.

For instance, I could conceive of meeting someone who is so much more my ideal than anyone I've seen before, that I wouldn't be able to resist throwing caution to the wind and getting off the bus to chase her down. But, I would think that would be a more intense experience than "think she might be" the woman of my dreams. It still wouldn't be a certainty, but maybe more of a probability. A mere possibility-- well, that's relatively common, and not worth being late for my meeting, or whatever.

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One could not possibly judge accurately based on a passing look in the eyes if the man or woman actually lived up to his dreams. And nobody would interrupt the schedule of an entire busload of people, hit the ground running and begin talking to a beautiful stranger who most likely also has an agenda of his or her own, because it would probably turn out to be a rude, presumptuous gesture, and a big waste of time.

"Oh, you have to go? Uh... ok. But your eyes, they're so dreamy! Oh, sure, uh yeah no problem. Ok well, bye."

Now you're stuck on the side of the road without a ride.

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This is an interesting question. Personally, I think that even if I were in a position in which it would be easy to approach the woman of my dreams, I would be reluctant to do so. I'm not sure if I'm ready to meet her. But, then.. that depends on which specific dreams you're talking about.

eh? B) what do you mean by that "which specific dreams..."? Not to be rude or anything, but are you suggesting that sex without a relationship is good (or am I misinterpreting, or was it a joke)?

As for "not ready"... it raises an interesting question. Suppose you do get to know this woman, and you discover that "wow, she really is my ideal woman", will you then tell her "I'll call you in a couple of years, when I'm ready for this" and not talk to her until then? I doubt that. But then, if meeting her NOW wasn't a high value before you met her, how would it become important value once you already know her?

For instance, I could conceive of meeting someone who is so much more my ideal than anyone I've seen before, that I wouldn't be able to resist throwing caution to the wind and getting off the bus to chase her down. But, I would think that would be a more intense experience than "think she might be" the woman of my dreams. It still wouldn't be a certainty, but maybe more of a probability. A mere possibility-- well, that's relatively common, and not worth being late for my meeting, or whatever.

I meant an intense experience, and not just a good looker :D

(and anyway I think that "physical" beauty should only be a minor criterion for choosing a romantic partner, when "physical" relates to traits like eye&hair color, bone structure, etc).

One could not possibly judge accurately based on a passing look in the eyes if the man or woman actually lived up to his dreams. And nobody would interrupt the schedule of an entire busload of people, hit the ground running and begin talking to a beautiful stranger who most likely also has an agenda of his or her own, because it would probably turn out to be a rude, presumptuous gesture, and a big waste of time.

"Oh, you have to go? Uh... ok. But your eyes, they're so dreamy! Oh, sure, uh yeah no problem. Ok well, bye."

Now you're stuck on the side of the road without a ride.

Thank you for expressing EXACTLY the type of excuses that people would normally use to justify why they give up their dreams.

First of all, I didn't mean to stop the entire bus, just to get off at the near station.

Notice that you have a pessimistic approach: you assume that the woman would be disturbed by your approach, and would find it a "rude, presumptuous gesture". This assumption has no real basis in reality: the woman might be delighted to meet you. It might seem "logical" to you that she would find it rude, but that seems like a logical conclusion only because you are working with wrong premises.

Edited by ifatart
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eh? B) what do you mean by that "which specific dreams..."? Not to be rude or anything, but are you suggesting that sex without a relationship is good (or am I misinterpreting, or was it a joke)?

No, I didn't intend that to be a sexual innuendo. (LOL) I hadn't thought of it that way. But what I meant is-- I have different dreams, and different versions of my ideal person. There is a person who would be ideal for me now, who might be completely different from the person I might want to spend the rest of my life with. And there's the person who has all the qualities that I've thought about and come to value, versus the person with all new qualities that fascinate me but that I've never considered actually existing in one person at one time. And the person who has a lot of things that I'd like to learn about, and who I'd like to have an intimate relationship with, but that I don't even know if I'd be compatible with in any kind of serious relationship. And lots of variations between these.

As for "not ready"... it raises an interesting question. Suppose you do get to know this woman, and you discover that "wow, she really is my ideal woman", will you then tell her "I'll call you in a couple of years, when I'm ready for this" and not talk to her until then?

Well, if I already know her, that's a little different than a perfect stranger. It's a lot harder to be pessimistic if you actually know the person is ideal. :D

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Thank you for expressing EXACTLY the type of excuses that people would normally use to justify why they give up their dreams.
I don't see how it follows that I'm providing excuses for giving up on my dreams (!) from assuming that a person walking in a city most likely has an agenda they would rather not have interrupted.
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Would you attempt to get off the bus and chase them, or just keep on riding and tell yourselves it was probably not as good as it looked?

I am quite confident almost all people would choose option B, and I wondered why.

If I truly, truly, truly thought the person was a Dominique, I'd jump off the bus. A person of the highest mind is hard to find. But if they merely looked statuesque, I'd stay in the AC and keep my seat.

But agreeing a bit with what Bold said: even if I did meet this woman of my dreams, I'd know I'm not good enough for her yet. I'd still meet her though, because 1) she could see that I eventually can be the man of her dreams 2) I'd rather be the Eddie Willers to the girl of my dreams than not meet her at all.

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I agree, even if i did meet the "perfect girl" right now, i wouldn't get into a serious relationship with her. Not because there's anything wrong with relationships, but because i'm still young, and i'd rather focus on other things right now.

I wouldn't try to hold onto her though; i'd rather find someone else when i am ready

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I don't see how it follows that I'm providing excuses for giving up on my dreams (!) from assuming that a person walking in a city most likely has an agenda they would rather not have interrupted.

Because while it is true that she probably has an agenda, if she is the woman of your dreams then she would value meeting you as well (because if you value yourself, and you value those things in another person too, then that person should value themselves and yourself too), and she would be interested in spending a minute of her time to allow you to keep in touch.

Assuming that a person you value will not feel the same is pessimism.

Well, if I already know her, that's a little different than a perfect stranger. It's a lot harder to be pessimistic if you actually know the person is ideal.

Yeah ok. But I wasn't asking about that. I asked how will being in a relationship becomes a value after you meet the ideal woman if before you met such woman, you would have no desire for such relationship at all. Because this would imply living your life according to what coincidences occur in your life and not according to your plans. You might be true to your initial plan though and let the woman know that you rather resume contact with her in a few years. But I find it hard to believe that once you already meet such person that you are charmed by, that you would want to stop talking to her... See the problem I was raising now?

But agreeing a bit with what Bold said: even if I did meet this woman of my dreams, I'd know I'm not good enough for her yet. I'd still meet her though, because 1) she could see that I eventually can be the man of her dreams 2) I'd rather be the Eddie Willers to the girl of my dreams than not meet her at all.

I really appreciate the last thing you said. It shows that you are truly interested in the value this person would give you, and not in the "status" or "position" the relationship would put you in (in other words it shows that you are not a second hander).

But - why do you think that you would not be good enough for her? Me don't get it.

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I don't see how it follows that I'm providing excuses for giving up on my dreams (!) from assuming that a person walking in a city most likely has an agenda they would rather not have interrupted.

Maybe you don't like being interrupted on the street, but girls are different. I think they genuinely enjoy being approached by guys, even if she isn't interested. As long as you don't act like a total dumbass, she'll appreciate your straightforwardness and confidence.

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But - why do you think that you would not be good enough for her? Me don't get it.
Suppose, for simplicity's sake, that the girl of my dreams is to be a brilliant novelist, and suppose my ultimate ambition is to be a chess grandmaster.

If I haven't attained a certain amount of my ambitions, and she has attained hers, what could the girl of my dreams see in me?

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Suppose, for simplicity's sake, that the girl of my dreams is to be a brilliant novelist, and suppose my ultimate ambition is to be a chess grandmaster.

If I haven't attained a certain amount of my ambitions, and she has attained hers, what could the girl of my dreams see in me?

It doesn't matter how far along you are on your path, but whether or not you're actually aligned to a path you deem worthy. A girl of any real quality/self-esteem will simply appreciate the fact that you are living your life purposefully. Was Roark any less desireable because he was compelled to work in a quarry one summer?

I've known a few girls who were real-life gold diggers, whose main concern was how successful a man is. From my experience, these girls are typically very beautiful and VERY good with handling men. If you're on a date with one and it's quite apparent, RUN, DON'T WALK to the nearest exit.

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Maybe you don't like being interrupted on the street, but girls are different. I think they genuinely enjoy being approached by guys, even if she isn't interested. As long as you don't act like a total dumbass, she'll appreciate your straightforwardness and confidence.

Yeah... Nothing like a charming p142d000095979400.gif to brighten up my day...

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"Opportunities" aren't context-less absolutes. My flinging myself from the bus (given, it'd have to be a guy) would depend on a lot of factors, none of which are isolatable in a hypothetical. That, and I'd like to remind you of an AR quote: "There is no such thing as an 'only' chance or a 'single' opportunity." Given, she was talking about employment instead of romantic relationships, but it still applies. If the guy is really the man of your dreams, most likely you'll have similar interests and encounter him again later while you're pursuing those interests, and then you can tell your grandkids this great story about how you saw your spouse for the first time walking down the street and how you just knew it was FATE and bore them to death.

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If I haven't attained a certain amount of my ambitions, and she has attained hers, what could the girl of my dreams see in me?

The same potential that exists in her?

If my ambition was to be CEO of my own large company, and that wouldn't be realized until I was 60 would I defer finding my true ideal until then?

The person you are now is the person with the potential to become a chess grandmaster. You've already made volitional steps to make yourself into that person. Will you continue on the path? Maybe not. But then, she might not either.

Anyone can admire a CEO. I want a woman who can tell the potential CEO apart from the potential drop outs. That takes rationality, strong values and philosophy.

Edited by KendallJ
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Anyone can admire a CEO. I want a woman who can tell the potential CEO apart from the potential drop outs. That takes rationality, strong values and philosophy.

According to The Millionaire Mind by Thomas J. Stanley this pretty much requires you to recognize real ambition when you see it. Good book, btw, and it contains some interesting advice on the qualities that indicate a good potential spouse.

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Suppose you are taking the buss, and in the middle of nowhere-you-know you see in the street what you think might be the man/woman of your dreams (judging by the way they walk, their look in the eyes and expression).

Would you attempt to get off the buss and chase them, or just keep on riding and tell yourselves it was probably not as good as it looked?

I am quite confident almost all people would choose option B, and I wondered why.

Anyone's got an answer?

Well, the answer is quite simple actually, no one can identify the "love of his life" from a single glance through a bus window. Combine that with a person's netural insecurity in those matters and you'll see why most people prefare to stay on the bus

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It doesn't matter how far along you are on your path, but whether or not you're actually aligned to a path you deem worthy.
I would expect the girl of my dreams to like me (but not regard me as ideal) simply for the fact that I am "on the worthy path", but should she treat every Tom, Dick, and Harry who takes some baby steps onto the worthy path as the man of her dreams???

Was Roark any less desireable because he was compelled to work in a quarry one summer?
No. I could care less whether a lack of sales forced my "ideal novelist" to have to clean houses to make ends meet. The important thing to me would be, not that she was one of the millions of people with a great novel simmering in the back of their minds, but that she, through hard work and raw talent, forged this quality work that few can and even fewer will.

If my ambition was to be CEO of my own large company, and that wouldn't be realized until I was 60 would I defer finding my true ideal until then?
No, for several reasons...

You may have used "potential" in two divergent ways

  1. "I currently possess the necessary capabilities to beat a chess grandmaster. I have the potential to do so if I can schedule the match and find a grandmaster willing to play.
  2. "I currently do not possess the necessary capabilities to beat a chess grandmaster. However, I have the potential to do so if I study hard and make the necessary efforts to improve my game."

What must the girl of my dreams see in me (love me for)? "The same potential that exists in her?"

If you only meant potential B... what's ideal about giving her ultimate love so freely to so many, many others?

If you only meant potential A, then, quite simply, that "potential" does not yet exist in me. Shouldn't it be a part of "ideal mate" that they love you, not for being one of millions of shmoes who have potential B, but because you are one of the few with potential A? If "yes", then is there anywhere we disagree?

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I would expect the girl of my dreams to like me (but not regard me as ideal) simply for the fact that I am "on the worthy path", but should she treat every Tom, Dick, and Harry who takes some baby steps onto the worthy path as the man of her dreams???

No. I could care less whether a lack of sales forced my "ideal novelist" to have to clean houses to make ends meet. The important thing to me would be, not that she was one of the millions of people with a great novel simmering in the back of their minds, but that she, through hard work and raw talent, forged this quality work that few can and even fewer will.

Unfortuantely, that's not the real world. No amount of "hard work and raw talent" is ever a guarantee for anything in life. Sure, we have some control over the outcome of our lives, but when we talk about success, as you are, we depend upon the opinions and approval of others.

A person should want to be a novelist only because he enjoys the process of writing, not because he expects anything from it, whether it's a published book, fame, money, or followers.

To quote cyrano: "when i have made a line that sings itself so that i love the sound of it, i pay myself a hundred times"

Furthermore, you seem too picky. it's hard enough to find a girl with the good looks/high self-esteem combo, let alone some grand vision that reflects my values.

Edited by Febod
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A person should want to be a novelist only because he enjoys the process of writing, not because he expects anything from it, whether it's a published book, fame, money, or followers.

...

Furthermore, you seem too picky. it's hard enough to find a girl with the good looks/high self-esteem combo, let alone some grand vision that reflects my values.

This is a form of malevolent universe premise. It is my ambition to be a novelist, both because I love to write and because I expect a published book, a moderate amount of fame, money, and possibly followers out of it. Because I love to write, I work hard to be the best writer that I can be, and this is precisely what makes me a value to the people that love to read. If I were to deny expecting a return on my writing, that would mean that I believed everyone in the entire world was incapable of perceiving what is of value to them and, frankly, I would not care to live in such a world.

Fortunately, this situation doesn't pertain. It might take me a long time to find my perfect audience, but I fully expect it to happen.

As for being "too picky", that's like saying that it's difficult enough to find a job with high pay and good benefits so it's unreasonable to insist that you should enjoy the work as well. If this is your view of romantic relationships, why haven't you married an evangelical christian or feminazi? Many of them are good looking and have (apparently) high self-esteem. Is it perhaps because they don't value what you value?

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This is a form of malevolent universe premise. It is my ambition to be a novelist, both because I love to write and because I expect a published book, a moderate amount of fame, money, and possibly followers out of it. Because I love to write, I work hard to be the best writer that I can be, and this is precisely what makes me a value to the people that love to read. If I were to deny expecting a return on my writing, that would mean that I believed everyone in the entire world was incapable of perceiving what is of value to them and, frankly, I would not care to live in such a world.

Fortunately, this situation doesn't pertain. It might take me a long time to find my perfect audience, but I fully expect it to happen.

As for being "too picky", that's like saying that it's difficult enough to find a job with high pay and good benefits so it's unreasonable to insist that you should enjoy the work as well. If this is your view of romantic relationships, why haven't you married an evangelical christian or feminazi? Many of them are good looking and have (apparently) high self-esteem. Is it perhaps because they don't value what you value?

Happiness and success are two different things. If i subscribed to the malevolent universe premise, i'd say happiness isnt possible at all.

Why are you so concerned with finding your audience? are you implying that if your audience didn't exist you wouldn't write at all? This sounds like you're letting the thoughts of others dictate your life, when in reality, what others think of you is really none of your business. And to the extent you care what others think is the extent to which you put your self-esteem in their hands.

yes, christians and feminists may have apparent self-esteem, but they don't.

Edited by Febod
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Why are you so concerned with finding your audience? are you implying that if your audience didn't exist you wouldn't write at all? This sounds like you're letting the thoughts of others dictate your life, when in reality, what others think of you is really none of your business. And to the extent you care what others think is the extent to which you put your self-esteem in their hands.
It would be ridiculous to write professionally and not consider the people who are actually going to make it professional and not just a hobby. The very nature of writing demands that an audience be present, anyway. Would you prefer people who do what they enjoy while expecting no payment, because they should only do it for themselves, but reserve actual paid work for things they do not consider enjoyable, because then they wouldn't have to consider someone else's opinion?

You are also not necessarily placing your self esteem in the hands of other people by considering whether or not they will pay for your product.

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Unfortuantely, that's not the real world. No amount of "hard work and raw talent" is ever a guarantee for anything in life. Sure, we have some control over the outcome of our lives, but when we talk about success, as you are, we depend upon the opinions and approval of others.
I was talking about the personal aspects of success. To me, "success" is successfully writing the great work, which is under the complete control of the novelist, and in no way is dependent on what other people think about it.

I tried to be pretty explicit that I was not referring to book sales or popularity - though these are very good things :worry:

A person should want to be a novelist only because he enjoys the process of writing, not because he expects anything from it, whether it's a published book, fame, money, or followers.
Since my example was about what I would want in a mate (and not why the mate should want to be this or that), you're talking about something a bit different from what I'm saying.

At any rate, enjoying writing is probably the most important thing, but hardly the only thing to consider. Unless it's bringing in income, a person can't spend all day writing...

It might take me a long time to find my perfect audience, but I fully expect it to happen.
:whistle:

Why are you so concerned with finding your audience?
Finding one's audience means not having to work in the granite quarry :lol:
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