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Morality of visiting Strip Clubs

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I am in a relationship with another objectivist and we are entering some bumps in the road. Most of them come from miscommunication or lack of communication. One of our topics of discussion were strip clubs. He thinks it is ok to go to strip clubs whereas I don't.

I appreciate all opinions on this topic and will commit to replys.

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Ask yourself what would allow your friend to enjoy a strip club?

For people who value sex very highly, sexual pleasure is attained by (well in your case) a woman of high competence, moral stature and a great mind.

Those things cannot be found in a strip club.

A strip club is mainly meant to allow people to experience sexual pleasure based on viewing direct sexual contents.

A stripper does not show off her great mind or moral stature in such a job.

How can such a thing be sexually appealing to any Objectivist is beyond me.

Sexuality divorced from a woman's mind is not a rational value.

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Actually, I did speak about strip clubs initially, since previous relationship problems stemmed from strip clubs. I did my best to make sure that he was either opposed to the idea of strip clubs (I am not, I simply hold higher expectations for objectivists), or has decided not to go to them for reasons I determine to be good ones.

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Actually, I did speak about strip clubs initially, since previous relationship problems stemmed from strip clubs. I did my best to make sure that he was either opposed to the idea of strip clubs (I am not, I simply hold higher expectations for objectivists), or has decided not to go to them for reasons I determine to be good ones.

So how do we go from that, to his present opinion that visiting strip clubs is OK?

Is this a purely theoretical argument you're having, or are you feeling hurt because you believe he wasn't honest with you? Is he actually visiting such clubs, or expressing that he would like to?

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Actually, I did speak about strip clubs initially, since previous relationship problems stemmed from strip clubs. I did my best to make sure that he was either opposed to the idea of strip clubs (I am not, I simply hold higher expectations for objectivists), or has decided not to go to them for reasons I determine to be good ones.

And what would be a good reason?

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I appreciate all opinions on this topic and will commit to replys.
It depends on what he does when he goes to the strip club. Some clubs are classy places where you can go to watch beautiful woman dance. Other clubs allow "full contact" lap dances, etc.

What kind of club does he go to and what does he do when he gets there? Why don’t you go with him and see for yourself?

I can not think of any good reason for an Objectivist to go to a strip club.
I can't think of any good reason why an Objectivist shouldn't go. What does "go to a strip club," mean to you? What assumptions are you making?
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I can't think of any good reason why an Objectivist shouldn't go. What does "go to a strip club," mean to you? What assumptions are you making?
"Going to a strip club", for me, implies other people rubbing up against you, possibly loss of control (how many men will turn a woman down when she starts to kiss him?) and lap dances. All summed up in one word according to me: betrayal.

He basically claimed that he paid for a lap dance when he went to a strip club, and he had the nerve to compare some sexual move I made on him to something the stripper did! No, he wasn't giving me advice, he was making a comparison between me and the stripper. This is a very uncomfortable situation for me and I let him know that. Then he explained that after his first experience, he cannot justify himself paying for that and has no desire to ever go again.

Now he has completely forgotten that he said that.

(Fixed quotaion block-tag. sN)

Edited by softwareNerd
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"Going to a strip club", for me, implies other people rubbing up against you, possibly loss of control (how many men will turn a woman down when she starts to kiss him?) and lap dances. All summed up in one word according to me: betrayal.

He basically claimed that he paid for a lap dance when he went to a strip club, and he had the nerve to compare some sexual move I made on him to something the stripper did! No, he wasn't giving me advice, he was making a comparison between me and the stripper. This is a very uncomfortable situation for me and I let him know that. Then he explained that after his first experience, he cannot justify himself paying for that and has no desire to ever go again.

Now he has completely forgotten that he said that.

I can think of all sorts of reasons why an Objectivist, in an established relationship (which is what we're talking about), shouldn't want to go to a strip club.

His behavior here seems very contradictory...

As an Objectivist, what does he think is the ethical justification for his behavior?

Edited by KendallJ
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Going to a strip club is okay as long as you go for the right reasons. If you go to get sexually aroused, and to 'get some', then you're probably a loser. But if you go because the atmosphere is fun, then i don't see anything wrong with it.

Women shouldn't be put on a pedestal for having a hot body. That being said, i see nothing wrong with admiring a woman's physical beauty.

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"Going to a strip club", for me, implies other people rubbing up against you, possibly loss of control (how many men will turn a woman down when she starts to kiss him?) and lap dances.

Most people think of strip clubs as places for watching beautiful women dance. Furthermore, the clubs have strict rules about touching the dancers. (I think so, I've never been to one.) And if cannot control yourself in the presence of a pretty woman, you have other issues.

Which is not to say that going to strip clubs is OK. My question would be - what is a rational reason for going?

Edit: I have gone to Hooters to see the pretty girls while I eat with friends. To those who oppose strip clubs - what about Hooters and the like?

Edited by GreedyCapitalist
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Shouldn't the partners involved in the relationship decide for themselves what is and what is not acceptable behavior? If consenting adults decide that it is OK for their partner to go to strip clubs, have affairs, and do whatever -- then who are we to say that X behavior is wrong for them?

If you don't like the way your partner behaves, why not dump him/her and find someone who shares your values?

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This is a very uncomfortable situation for me and I let him know that. Then he explained that after his first experience, he cannot justify himself paying for that and has no desire to ever go again.
Did he decide to stop going because he doesn't want to pay for it, or because it makes you uncomfortable?

Also Note: Not all "Objectivists" share the same values—that is to say that not all Objectivists are Objectivists! Sounds silly but if you read through the posts you will find a vast array of views, opinions, and interpretations of Objectivist Ethics. This could be a very interesting (although probably too controversial) topic for a new thread.

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I can't think of any good reason why an Objectivist shouldn't [to a strip club]. What does "go to a strip club," mean to you? What assumptions are you making?

You "can't think" of any reason why an Objectivist in an established relationship shouldn't go to a strip club? That does not speak well for your ability to think. You should be ashamed of yourself.

A strip club is a place where men go to, at best, oogle naked or semi-naked women (and there are worse activities). For any man in a relationship, going to oogle naked women is a betrayal of the relationship, plain and simple.

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A strip club is a place where men go to, at best, oogle naked or semi-naked women (and there are worse activities). For any man in a relationship, going to oogle naked women is a betrayal of the relationship, plain and simple.

Don't you think that whatever constitutes a betrayal of a relationship (or any agreement for that matter) should be decided between people that are in THAT relationship?

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I'm one of those lucky people who gets to draw pinup smut for pay, I do this for a living, I've been happily self-employed for years doing this, so here's my take on it all--

It's a perfectly morally acceptable transaction--- they have nice boobs, you have a desire to see nice boobs. You pay, and get to see nice boobs. Both parties walk away from the transaction having benefitted. How this is immoral is beyond any kind of logical comprehension.

Same as prostitution-- the reason it is a 'victimless crime' is because both parties are consenting. The hooker provides the nookie, and the john provides the money. Supply, demand. Transaction made, both parties walk away having benefitted.

Nobody is forcing girls to strip or be hookers. They can always flip burgers if they feel like it. They have a tangible asset (boobs) that can be used to provide income.

The only reason I can see that people might think it is immoral is from religious knucklebashing and brainwashing. And my argument for that is that the thing you call God designed you naked, and beautiful, so why is it a shame to look at such a work of art? In your own religion's words, the greatest work of art, crafted in His image no less. To gaze upon the naked form is to gaze upon God's visage, therefore, if you look at strippers, you should feel enlightened, as many do. So quit trying to be such a Puritan, and enjoy the flesh.

-JB

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For any man in a relationship, going to oogle naked women is a betrayal of the relationship, plain and simple.
What if the woman in the relationship agrees (for whatever reason --- and I can think of several “good” ones) that it is okay for her man to go? It’s up to the two people in the relationship to decide what each partner “should” or “should not” do. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with going to a strip club. It is wrong to violate a relationship but the relationship “agreement” can have whatever terms the two partners decide is in their rational self-interest.
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The only reason I can see that people might think it is immoral is from religious knucklebashing and brainwashing.

Did you read the thread, or just the title? :dough:

The subject at hand is for people that are in relationships! :dough::dough::dough:

What if the woman in the relationship agrees (for whatever reason --- and I can think of several “good” ones) that it is okay for her man to go?

Provide those "good" reasons.

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Provide those "good" reasons.

They are trying to improve their sex lives. She wants to do a striptease for him--they go together and watch. She wants to learn what turns him on. He's impotent in his relationship-- so as an experiment they decide that he should go to a strip club and “oogle.” He is writing a novel and needs to find out what goes on in there. Etc etc etc :dough::dough::dough: Maybe you should try it --- you might like it!

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I don't include hippies or other "free love" depravity in my definition of "relationship," so I don't see how it could be decided otherwise.

For some looking at naked people is not the same as having sex with them. I am not for strip clubs (I have expressed criticism about them under another topic) but the decision of what is acceptable in a relationship - I am leaving to people in that relationship. Whatever they decide may not be for me - but it is them who are living with the conditions and consequences of their agreement.

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Now he has completely forgotten that he said that.

(Fixed quotaion block-tag. sN)

Well, it sounds like you need to make him remember. The issue of whether or not strip clubs are appropriate for person A vs. person B are irrelevant, because you are not comfortable with them. I wouldn't want anyone I was in a committed relationship with frequenting one, either. This seems like a pretty simple situation. You decide whether or not this is a deal-breaker for you and act accordingly. If it is, he needs to decide what is more important to him: the strip clubs or you. That is, if you're still willing to trust him at this point despite his back and forth on the issue.

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