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Help With Selflessness

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Hi, I'm new here. In the past half year or so, I've become interested in Ayn Rand and her theory of Objectivism. I am by no means an expert on the subject, or do I think I really have a good understanding of it. I'm trying to educate myself more on the topic.

My question is this. In some professions, such as being a firefighter or ER worker, is it considered selflessness when they do their work? I feel a bit confused, because after reading the Fountainhead, selflessness is portrayed as a great evil. In these jobs, a person is working for the happiness of others. On the flip side of that though, I was thinking that they may be doing it for their own selfish reasons, such as to make themselves happy. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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These were the things I were trying to break down myself. For example, a firefighter goes into a burning building to save a person. Some would say it is a selfless act, that they are risking their life for another. But, if that person did it for the rush that they get from it, for their own 'fun' or enjoyment, then it would be selfish.

My other question is, is it considered 'living through another person' if the firefighter would get enjoyment out of saving the persons life?

Sorry if I'm being vague, please ask anything else that you might be wondering.

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There is an article in Virtue of Selfishness. It's called "Isn't Everyone Selfish?" It tackles your question. Have you read it? If not, I suggest you find it and read it as it has the answer.

The key here is the trade of values. If one gives up a greater value for a lesser one, then it is not selfish, but selfless.

Another article I suggest is another one from VoS: "The Ethics of Emergencies." This one covers actions and their evaluation in emergencies, such as the one you just gave (a firefighter goes into a burning building to save a person).

Keep in mind that a firefigter gets paid.

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The thing that confused me for the longest time was the difference between "selflessness" and benevolence. There is nothing wrong with wanting to save lives. The reason why is more important. If they say they want to save lives for a "higher purpose" or for the good of mankind then it is selflessness.

Realize that they are being trained to save lives and that most of them would probably not do it if they didnt have gear on them (which would increase their chances of dying)

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Welcome to the forum!

You mention firefighters, but don't allude to the danger they face, only to the fact that they save others. So, I'll address just that (it's simpler :) ), by saying that most work people do is done and traded with others.

That division-of-labor spells productivity. If a person had to farm his own cereal and vegetables, spin his own yarns, build his own house, ... the net result would be less food, cloth, housing for him and everyone else. So, that is the background context. Given that context, each person chooses one (or very few) things that they specialize in, and they trade their services with others.

So, an architect builds buildings for others; a farmer grows food for others; a fire-fighter puts out other people's fires. When each individual chooses a job he asks himself questions like: what do I like to do? what are the things I am able to do? what are the things that people will pay me to do? and so on. If one asks oneself such questions and ends up deciding to be a fire-fighter, then one has presumably done so rationally.

Does that answer your question? If not, or if it raises new ones, post away.

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My question is this. In some professions, such as being a firefighter or ER worker, is it considered selflessness when they do their work?

Speaking as a member of one of those occupations, a police officer, I can assure you I derive great selfish value from my occupation. I value the concept of justice, I value having a reasonably safe living environment, and I value having rational people performing the job of policing. I do not see myself or the way I perform my job as being selfless in the least. Is there risk? Yes, of course. But there is risk in many, if not all jobs. I have some degree of control over the risks I take because I have equipment, training and (I think) a rational mind.

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Yes, consider someone who becomes a doctor even though medicine bores him and he finds hospitals and clinics to be depressing places. Let's also assume that he lives in a country where doctors aren't paid very much. Let's say that despite this he decides to become a doctor because he thinks that's the good thing to do to help people. THat would be unselfish, and not a prescription for happiness.

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When I was applying to medical school, I knew that I would face the question, "Why do you want to be a doctor?" Most of the other people I knew didn't venture beyond, "Because I want to help people".

I refused to offer that up as my reason because it was untrue. My motivation for becoming a physican was purely selfish. I found the human body, its normal physiology, and all of its pathology fascinating. I loved learning how to evaluate problems, putting clues together, coming up with (ideally) the correct diagnosis, and taking care of the problem (if possible). My interest in going into a surgical specialty was also selfish. I loved watching my hands produce measurable, immediate results without ill-effects. That likely stems from the part of me that enjoys immediate gratification.

Had I become a physician solely for the good of others, I never would have made it through medical school. In those moments when people claim to have a right to your skills, skills acquired through more work than they likely will ever do in their lifetimes, you had better have more to fall back on than wanting to serve them to get you through. If the work itself does not have intrinsic value for you, you're done.

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If the work itself does not have intrinsic value for you, you're done.

Bravo! I, making my living as an artist, do it for the money, plain and simple. There's also the selfish reason that the world pays me to draw T&A, which I find an enjoyable pastime in addition to a source of income. Other artists I've met can't possibly fathom it-- "How can you be such an evil capitalist?" they ask, "You're supposed to do it for the spirit of doing it!"

How much spirit will you have for something when everyone expects you to do it for free? Folks are also more likely to crap on your effort when it's doled out 'in spirit'-- there's no ingrate quite like the entitled.

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My interest in going into a surgical specialty was also selfish. I loved watching my hands produce measurable, immediate results without ill-effects. That likely stems from the part of me that enjoys immediate gratification.

LOL!! You went to study medicine because you have a need for immediate gratification?!

Medicine is one of the most demanding fields that offer the least immediate gratification when you're a student!

How did you go through the 7 (it is 7, right?) years of education, of studying the names of all the bones, muscles, diseases etc'?

Just want to add one more thing, to what bobsponge said: I'm also an artist. But I don't do it primarily for the money, I do it percisely for the "spirit of it" as you called it. I am making money off of it, but that is not what I have in mind when I paint.

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LOL!! You went to study medicine because you have a need for immediate gratification?!

Medicine is one of the most demanding fields that offer the least immediate gratification when you're a student!

How did you go through the 7 (it is 7, right?) years of education, of studying the names of all the bones, muscles, diseases etc'?

Just want to add one more thing, to what bobsponge said: I'm also an artist. But I don't do it primarily for the money, I do it percisely for the "spirit of it" as you called it. I am making money off of it, but that is not what I have in mind when I paint.

I never said that I needed immediate gratification but only that I enjoy it. 010.gif

Having said that, I can imagine how that probably seems when you consider the ridiculous path I took.

When it comes to choosing what to pursue in medicine, I factored that part of my personality into the mix. I had to imagine what I would prefer doing if I was up all night. I knew that I would do best on my feet and using my hands.

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Just want to add one more thing, to what bobsponge said: I'm also an artist. But I don't do it primarily for the money, I do it percisely for the "spirit of it" as you called it. I am making money off of it, but that is not what I have in mind when I paint.

I believe that to some degree I understand what you're saying here. You like to do things because you want to see them done, correct? But that is obviously a selfish motive.

I think what bobsponge meant was more along the lines of people who did art because 'everyone needs art'. This can be also expressed as 'for the sake of art'. Art is obviously defined as outside of your person.

To the original question, when considering it think about it this way. "Are they compensated for their work moentarily/objectively?" 'Because they like to save completely anonymous people' would probably not fall under this category. Keep in mind, this is limited to things "of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind; objective reality". (Merriam Webster Online Dictionary)

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I believe that to some degree I understand what you're saying here. You like to do things because you want to see them done, correct? But that is obviously a selfish motive.

The reason I paint is that I enjoy it tremendously. The enjoyment it gives me is incomparable to anything else in my life.

Even if I could make no money off of it, I would take some other job just to allow myself to continue painting.

I also paint because I like looking at the final result, which is what I think you meant by "like seeing it done".

If I remember correctly you talked about falling in love with your own painting when looking at it on the thread about your drawing of Dagny. I understood perfectly well what you were talking about there. And yes, it is also a major factor in why I enjoy painting.

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