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TheColdTruth
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I saw this the morality of strip clubs thread, and had to make a branch thread specifically devoted to it.

Ask yourself what would allow your friend to enjoy a strip club?

For people who value sex very highly, sexual pleasure is attained by (well in your case) a woman of high competence, moral stature and a great mind.

Those things cannot be found in a strip club.

A strip club is mainly meant to allow people to experience sexual pleasure based on viewing direct sexual contents.

A stripper does not show off her great mind or moral stature in such a job.

How can such a thing be sexually appealing to any Objectivist is beyond me.

Sexuality divorced from a woman's mind is not a rational value.

So all stripers are inherently stupid, and devoid of high competence, moral stature, and a great mind?

Oh-hoh. I'd love to see what you're going to use to back this one up. I have a couple friends that are strippers, that are anything but what you just described them as.

How are you going to justify that blanket-policy type of blind stereotyping?

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So all stripers are inherently stupid, and devoid of high competence, moral stature, and a great mind?

Just thought I'd point out that you twisted his words around - that is definitely not what he said. Can you explain how a stripper might show off the great mind she possesses while she is at work? Perhaps by gaining a clientele that is more interested in the fascinating intellectual conversation she provides than her naked body? I guess that's possible, but I find it to be highly unlikely.

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Just thought I'd point out that you twisted his words around - that is definitely not what he said. Can you explain how a stripper might show off the great mind she possesses while she is at work? Perhaps by gaining a clientele that is more interested in the fascinating intellectual conversation she provides than her naked body? I guess that's possible, but I find it to be highly unlikely.

So you're saying anyone doing a job whose main focus isn't somehow intellectually related is incapable or practically unlikely to be intelligent?

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No, it means that they may find it impossible to convey the fact that they are highly intelligent while at work to an onlooker. I work in a clean room chopping up dead people on a daily basis and my coworkers run the gamut from the highly intelligent to the extremely mediocre. I challenge you to simply watch us working (no sound) and tell who is who.

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I think the answer is obviously not. Furthermore, I think it could be a very good career choice for some people. I hear a good stripper can make upwards of 100k a year, that isn't bad for unskilled labor. Obviously they need to have plans to move on with their lives after 30 or 35, but it could be a great way to get money to pay for college or start up a business.

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I saw this the morality of strip clubs thread, and had to make a branch thread specifically devoted to it.

So all stripers are inherently stupid, and devoid of high competence, moral stature, and a great mind?

Hold your horsies... I was talking about getting sexual pleasure from sex divorced from mind. Strippers don't get sexual pleasure from being strippers, they get money for it. Which is another thing.

Moreover, I didn't say that strippers are stupid, or that even their costumers are stupid. If you're going to claim I said something, please quote ME. I don't appreciate words being shoved into my mouth.

Now, if we are talking about stripping as a career, I have two things to say:

  1. A career should be the means for someone to fulfil their ability and potential, to allow them to take pride in themselves, and pleasure from the job itself. Stripping is not a job that calls upon a woman's creativity or intellectual ability (unless they also dance, and then it might require very little creativity). So choosing it as a career is immoral. (* See my remark below)
  2. Generally sex and money should not be traded. The appropriate payment for sexual pleasure should be virtues.

(*) If a woman has no choice but to work as a stripper to survive, and it is temporary, then it would be OK, but only as a temporary job.

Or, if a woman gets naked as part of some dance (not the kind of strip-clubs), and it is artistic, and she is doing it for the artistic value (for the pleasure of the dance and the creativity it takes) then it is okay as well.

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1. A career should be the means for someone to fulfil their ability and potential, to allow them to take pride in themselves, and pleasure from the job itself. Stripping is not a job that calls upon a woman's creativity or intellectual ability (unless they also dance, and then it might require very little creativity). So choosing it as a career is immoral. (* See my remark below)

2. Generally sex and money should not be traded. The appropriate payment for sexual pleasure should be virtues.

These two points are dripping with assumptions.

A career should be the means for someone to fulfil their ability and potential

I know quite a few women that, despite their better than average physique, would have no ability or potential as a stripper. My point is how do you assume that being a stripper is not a pursuit of the ability or potential of one's self? I, for one think that it would take an acute level of ability to fulfill the role.

[...]to allow them to take pride in themselves, and pleasure from the job itself [...]

another blathering assumption in this context

[...]So choosing [it is] immoral. [...]

All but supported here.

Don't get me wrong here. I don't mean to be short, only to point out what you have not said. Also, I have seen some seedy and worthless establishments in this field and detest their nihilist bones and the degrading atmosphere, but I have also seen some very, if not, regal establishments that are no where close to those kinds of places.

Do I know exactly where to stand as to their morality, not quite, this thread has sparked some thought, but will I be quick to admonish (especially living in Las Vegas) the very powerful multi-million dollar industry? No.

Generally sex and money should not be traded. The appropriate payment for sexual pleasure should be virtues.

Generally? Ok, generally. "Appropriate" is a value judgement so I understand that in the context of your life the celebration of virtue and the exchange thereof is your only currency for intimacy. Adding the word "should" to a statement of your own value judgement does not expand it's context.

I don't want to come off as "nit-picky" here, I just get the impression that you have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this topic. And it's nothing personal, you just seem to have rounded out the "average" rational opinion on the matter and I want to, because of my own shallow understanding here, explore it.

Thanks

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So you're saying anyone doing a job whose main focus isn't somehow intellectually related is incapable or practically unlikely to be intelligent?

Now you're twisting my words. Fantastic.

I think you need to read more carefully before jumping to conclusions and deciding what you think the person meant is actually what they said. Perhaps instead of starting sentences with "So you're saying" you could ask "Do you mean...?" and give people a chance to clarify things for you instead of putting words in their mouths.

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Now you're twisting my words. Fantastic.

I think you need to read more carefully before jumping to conclusions and deciding what you think the person meant is actually what they said. Perhaps instead of starting sentences with "So you're saying" you could ask "Do you mean...?" and give people a chance to clarify things for you instead of putting words in their mouths.

But, you can't troll as well that way.

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These two points are dripping with assumptions.

I know quite a few women that, despite their better than average physique, would have no ability or potential as a stripper. My point is how do you assume that being a stripper is not a pursuit of the ability or potential of one's self? I, for one think that it would take an acute level of ability to fulfill the role.

I can think of many activities that would be challenging and demanding skills: Such as being able to count the hairs on one's arm, being able to twist one's tongue inside the mouth, balancing a fork on one's nose, eating pieces of metal, and being a hooker.

Almost every activity requires some amount of skill. That alone does not make it worthy as a career.

Being a stripper does require skill, but if at the end of the day one's product is a bunch of aroused men, then one's job is bad, because the product is bad (sex divorced from mind).

If on the other hand, the stripping club is something more like a place mainly for dancing (like the Vegas shows might be) then at the end of the day a dancer can say that the product they have created was art.

Like I said, I have nothing against dancing naked, or even against sexual dance as long as it is primarily dancing.

Now, I don't know, if you know some striping joints who put emphasis on dance and not on sex (where dancers are instructed to create art primarily and not arousal) then such place does allow a woman to use her mind in a good way. But if the strippers are required to put emphasis on arousing the clients, then that is a bad job.

That said, notice that you responded to your own conclusion from the things I said and not to what I actually said. I never said that stripping does not require any skill. I did say that a worthy career should provide one with an opportunity to fulfil their potential, among other things.

another blathering assumption in this context

All but supported here.

So you mean a woman should take pride in herself if she manages to bring men to sexual arousal using nothing more than her body? Explain to me why, please.

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So you mean a woman should take pride in herself if she manages to bring men to sexual arousal using nothing more than her body? Explain to me why, please.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that being a stripper would be all that fulfilling or prideful. I just don't see a reason to think it's all that bad.

Arousal for one thing isn't some kind of purley biological reaction, like that of goosebumps or blinking on a windy day. Even if it's only a visual stimulus it's not separated from rational value jugdements or from the mind; and in my view is not something that is immoral to value in at least some respect albeit small.

I just don't see how you can drop the gavel on all sexual arousal/situations/actions that are not part of the one on one intimate exchange of two lovers. Which from my perspective is what your essentially saying with your stance on this issue. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

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  • 1 year later...
How? Because they are using their sexuality to make money? What's wrong with that?

If you are asking me for an estimation of the morality of stripping or becoming the next Ron Jeremy, I cannot answer you, because I am not sure. One thing I am sure of is the self-destructive nature of these acts to an individual's psychology.

Edited by adrock3215
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One thing I am sure of is the self-destructive nature of these acts to an individual's psychology.

How are these destructive to one's psychology? Why would one take a self-esteem hit by selling ones sexuality? She'd have to be ashamed of it for that to happen. What's there to be ashamed of? How is stripping in essence different than modeling for a sculpture for money? Is it because she is explicitly flaunting her sexuality versus having it passively displayed? What in the explicit flaunting of one's sexuality makes one's self-esteem take a hit in *all* situations and contexts.

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ok I cannot see it:

Roark stopped into a strip club after a very long day, the gyrations and raw sexuality appealed to his animal nature and pleased him.

"AH" he exclaimed, "life is good." as he tossed back a beer and a shot.

Edited by pam
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How are these destructive to one's psychology? Why would one take a self-esteem hit by selling ones sexuality? She'd have to be ashamed of it for that to happen. What's there to be ashamed of? How is stripping in essence different than modeling for a sculpture for money?

The essence of modeling for a sculpture is to sell the concretized idea of beauty to a rational intellect for contemplation. The essence of stripping is to sell the idea of physical pleasure (disconnected from any rational intellect) to a group of crude, drunken idiots. To illustrate the difference clearly, consider the fact that people don't usually masturbate to the thought of a sculpture.

Is it because she is explicitly flaunting her sexuality versus having it passively displayed? What in the explicit flaunting of one's sexuality makes one's self-esteem take a hit in *all* situations and contexts.

I don't think that gorgeous self-confident women who want to flaunt their sexuality are becoming strippers.

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She'd have to be ashamed of [her sexuality] for that to happen.

You may want to check that premise. It is not necessary for one to be ashamed of something to not want to share it promiscuously with anyone who will pay. It could also be that one values it highly enough that it is not for sale.

Would you sell out on your principles for money? No, but does that mean you're ashamed of them?

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I think this is another subject that can't be judged expect in specific cases. Remember that Roark broke rocks rather than compromising in his chosen profession. I can imagine a female particle physicist driven to stripping over the stranglet/black hole nonsense surrounding the Large Hadron Collider.

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breaking rocks, working a crap job, waitressing.

would you want to your "stuff" shown to a bunch of drunken patrons? i doubt it-and in this day and age men will make more money stripping for other men.

anyway

there IS a difference even if people dont want to admit it

aka, self um respect

Pam

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You may want to check that premise. It is not necessary for one to be ashamed of something to not want to share it promiscuously with anyone who will pay. It could also be that one values it highly enough that it is not for sale.

I agree, but if a woman of self-esteem chooses to share her body in a sexual way only as a means of desire not the actual acts, but live fantasy to make money, what's wrong with that?

Would you sell out on your principles for money? No, but does that mean you're ashamed of them?

What if she doesn't subscribe to the view that it violates a fundamental principle to engage in an act of fantasy. I'm not talking about a whore, but a stripper; there is a difference.

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