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Am I being a hypocrite?

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Intresca

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Okay, I'm not sure entirely sure if what I'm about to say will make any sense at all, I can only try. I recently had a discussion with my girlfriend about a lot of the things I see during my day that irritate me. She understood most of them, except for one. When people drive around in their cars all night, especially teenagers, as a form of entertainment. For a reason I was unable to explain to her properly, that really irritates me. I told her I found it to be a waste of time, that driving up and down the same road in your car for hours on end was an extremely non-productive activity. It had no purpose in my opinion. And to use a line from Atlas Shrugged, the most depraved type of person is the one who has no purpose. That made her extremely angry, and she brought up something I hadn't thought of. I play video games quite a bit, which is also an extremely unproductive thing to do. She said that there wasn't really any difference between me playing video games and the people who drive around all night. They were both unproductive forms of entertainment. Now, I can see her point on that, and I am ready to admit that she's right. But, for some reason, I needed the opinion of some other people on this. Am I wrong? Am I being a hypocrite for saying that driving around in your car with no destination is worse than sitting around moving your thumbs in order to play a game? I'm honestly stuck here, even though it's really a simple thing. Am I being a hypocrite?

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Well, I share your preference for video games over aimless driving -- at least video games have goals. But I don't see anything inherently bad about enjoying to drive... a little weird, in my opinion, but certainly not an immoral thing to do. (Provided, of course -- like with any recreation -- it doesn't infringe in their more important values.)

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I appreciate the comment, really. And you may be right that my finding the aimless driving incredibly irritating is weird. I had to ask because when she presented the idea that I might be wrong about that, it seriously bothered me and made me question a lot of other things about myself. Which only irritated me more. And this discussion led us from a simple thing such as driving versus games, to us talking about how a lot of things that irritate me, apply to her. I suppose that doesn't really matter though, I can solve the "irritations apply to her" on my own, but I was seriously confused as to whether or not I was being a hypocrite, I appreciate the comment MinorityOfOne. Thanks.

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While MinorityOfOne is correct in pointing out that video games have goals, it must be stated that only certain video games are moral. Many evasive games exist, which distort reality and create nightmarish visions of evil. However, there are luckily many morally uplifting games to play. I would mention the Tom Clancy games, such as Splinter Cell and Ghost Recon, where one plays as an anti-terrorism operative. Defeating disgusting terrorism and glorifying America is clearly right and rational, and it makes these games excellent experiences based upon proper philosophies. Other excellent games include the Desert Storm games, especially the recent sequel Back to Baghdad.

Evasive, evil games include anything that suggests A is NON-A - in other words, anything that tries to create an alternate reality or tamper with this one. This includes the depraved Final Fantasy games and their ilk, which create "Alternate" universes where A is non-A (ie, "magic" exists) and thus offend reason. Then there are the Resident Evil games, which sickeningly distort reality and suggest that A is B - this world is not this world, but a ghoulish world of supernatural evil and death. The sense of life in these games is also nauseatingly malevolent.

Evil games are nothing new. Consider old games like Super Mario Brothers and Sonic the Hedgehog, with their irrational, evil metaphysics. They distort reality with their improbable movements, their surrealistic environments, and their perversion of money (in both games, valuables like coins and rings are COLLECTED, not produced. Do these evaders not understand that wealth must be CREATED?)

I suggest the XBox system if one chooses to play moral games. HALO, in which mankind (in a scientifically sound future) fights against evil agressors with dogmatic beliefs, is a personal favorite. Ninja Gaiden is another new game where the protagonist uses his moral judgement to brand evil AS EVIL, and destroy it in the name of values. Plus, the system is created by Bill Gates, one of the greatest American capitalists and producers of wealth. This explains why its games identify A as A and present proper philosophies.

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Roark,

I don't mind usage of magic in computer games. You don't always look at concretes there, you look at its theme. What is your goal and how you achieve it? The most immoral games in this way would be the types similar to "Icy Tower." There's no point in that game, given that in the end you'll certainly fall back down. In Harry Potter computer game you use magic, but you use it to destroy evil. What's more, you can learn magic, just like you can learn about the real world. So it basically says that magic is also bound to some reasonable facts and can be logically explained - because it can be learned. Even if that were not true, the entire Harry Potter is still good because it describes the fight good vs. evil and the good ultimately wins. There's an essay on ARI about Harry Potter, I suggest you read it. It's here: http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/potter.shtml

So whether or not a game is good or not, is an issue more difficult to discuss than whether or not it is good to drive the car up and down the street. I see no reason why driving the car without setting the destination would be immoral. There is a purpose to it, and that's having fun.

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I own every Final Fantasy game except for three and have enjoyed and beaten all of them. Does that make me immoral?

Have you ever watched "The Matrix and enjoyed it for some cool special effect or some other aspect of the movie?" If so, I guess you're immoral. Have you ever read a fantasy novel, and enjoyed it for entertainment value? I guess you're immoral.

Roark, you should really think about your post some more. Each and every person values each and every form of entertainment in a different way- provided that they enjoy video games, movies, or whatever from of entertainment of a certain type. It's like you're stating, if you enjoy spinach and I don't, that automatically makes it immoral to you.

It's when you start believing in these forms of entertainment as being real- like the possibility of the matrix existing, or the world of Final Fantasy existing- that is when it becomes immoral.

I can still play these games, watch these movies, and read these books soley for entertainment value and still accept in the principles of objectivism. You know why? Because these forms of entertainment were created by man for the purpose of enjoyment and entertainment.

You may not like the Final Fantasy series because it is not real. That is fine. However, just because you don't like something for whatever reason that you do not like it for, it does not mean that it isn't moral.

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I enjoyed Doom, I must confess. We used to play Doom on a network in computer class in highschool. Then we shot each other into a bloody pulp right under the teacher's nose. It was great!

I think it is wrong to judge games ideologically. You should judge them on their playability. While I don't generally appreciate the horror-movie kind of game, if it intelligent and fun to play - I will give it a try.

Some quest games were set in a fairely malevolent universe, but they were SO FUN to play!

But I have to admit - nothing beats Monkey Island!

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When people drive around in their cars all night...

Driving down the 101 with the top down, hair blowing in the wind, with my love at the wheels, :P ... nice...

Perhaps what irritates you is not just the driving, but totality of what you see in the particular people you observe.

As for DOOM... I found it to be nice clean fun. Only, for someone who doesn't play regularly, video games make my eyes spin after a while :confused:

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The question is: What meaning does the video game have that driving around in groups in a car all night dosen't.

There is an argument to be made that video games have a certian--well not aesthetic, quite--value in a similar way to, say, playing a sport.

Many games have skillful aspects... reflexes, quick thinking, stratagy, etc...

While I am not prepared to fully make this argument, it should be clear, by now, that video games are not to be dismissed in the same way as riding around in cars all night.

Incidentially, the individuals who take part in the actions you describe usually do so for the deliberate purpose of being aimless, and for the reason that they "have nothing better to do." It is certianally correct to disapprove of such an action for such a reason. Whether or not video games ought also be disapproved of--whether the goal behind playing them is to avoid doing anything--is a seperate matter.

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In my mind, the driving around the car activity is usually NOT about the driving around in the car. It's about the social interaction between friends. It's like when a group of people go bowling, skating or any number of other activities. The activity is secondary to the social dynamic involved.

With regards to computer games, I don't believe the setting makes the game evil. The mission or the objective might, but not the setting. I think the setting may only be problematic if the game (or game producers) were trying to pass it off as being reality. Since I'm intelligent enough to recognize it's just a game and that I shouldn't base any of my morals or ethics on it, I don't see the problem. I value the games simply as entertainment, nothing more.

VES

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I don't see anything inherently bad with wanting to drive around for a while, especially if there's some good music for you to listen to. I don't own a car, but I do occasionally think about how good it would feel to take the car (if I had one) for a long drive, with a stash of great music. I really would do that when i get the oppurtunity and the time. I think it would be helpful in clearing my head and de-stressing.

As far as the video games go :) I really enjoy playing them. Some more than the others though. Like I'd anyday pick Ghost Recon over Doom, though on LAN something like Doom or Quake III can be a lot of fun. The thing about Ghost Recon and SWAT 3 is that you just can't go in with all guns blazing, got to think about how to handle the situation. I really enjoy that, so much so that one of my professional interests are in Game Programming among other things :):)

dinesh.

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I recently had a discussion with my girlfriend about a lot of the things I see during my day that irritate me.  She understood most of them, except for one.  When people drive around in their cars all night, especially teenagers, as a form of entertainment.  For a reason I was unable to explain to her properly, that really irritates me.

This is a good opportunity for you to hone the extremely important psychological skill of introspection.

Why does it irritate you? What value of yours is at stake here?

I told her I found it to be a waste of time, that driving up and down the same road in your car for hours on end was an extremely non-productive activity. It had no purpose in my opinion. And to use a line from Atlas Shrugged, the most depraved type of person is the one who has no purpose.

Let's assume, for the moment, that what they are doing is immoral. So what? What is it to you? How does it affect you and your values?

Do you feel that it is a threat to your values if other people don't accept the same values in the same way that you do? Why?

Does what they are doing interfere with some goal of yours? Does the noise they are making keep you from pursuing some activity?

Do they have something, like a car or more leisure time, that you wish you had? Does the fact that they have it and you don't seem wrong and unjust to you?

Emotions always involve our own values and strong emotions involve our most important values. When you have a strong reaction to something like this, you can learn a lot about yourself by introspecting and identifying the value(s) at stake.

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But I have to admit - nothing beats Monkey Island!

Yeah... Nothing can beat the curse of Monkey Island. And the curse is you just play it and play it and keep playing it, and when you're done, you give it another go. And you keep playing it until you're one of LeChuck's minions trying to win Elaine for him; until you look like Murray. Buahahaha! :confused:

OK, just kidding.

What I'm saying is - games are fun. Fun is good. According to syllogism, games are good.

BTW, I loved Quake and I too excelled at it at highschool. Could beat anyone in my class. My teacher wasn't too happy about it either.

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This is a good opportunity for you to hone the extremely important psychological skill of introspection.

Thanks for that, Betsy. Too often I've found myself violating the "So what?" rule of discussion and debate - I reach the point where I've invested signficant amounts of time, energy, and emotion in an issue, only to look back and wonder, "So what? What's the point? Why is this important?"

My rule is - never discuss an issue unless the outcome will in some way matter to me. Since I do not play video games, and since I'm not too concerned with the moral implications of driving around aimlessly in a car, I'm choosing to sit this one out.

Then again, it's a nice day...perhaps I'll go for a ride. :blink:

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Evasive, evil games include anything that suggests A is NON-A - in other words, anything that tries to create an alternate reality or tamper with this one.

Assuming that this post was serious, it must be pointed out that fantasy elements do not invalidate something. It is the underlying theme of the game that must be examined. The Romantic Manifesto mentions this in a chapter.

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I think RC is right about this.

I have solved many business problems by just taking a spin... Also, I have utilized the relative privacy affforded in a car to explore social relationships with people when I did not have my own house/apartment etc.

Further, the Car and the mobility that comes with it has come to represent for many people the Independence that most value at least to a certain degree.

It seems doubtful to me that any chosen human behavior could not be an attempt at purposeful action. Granted the purpose may not be consciously identified by the agent, and certainly that purpose may be empty, or the behavior may not be the best way to acheive this purpose,

But all effects have causes. In the case of Human Behavior, it is the thought which procedes them that is the cause.

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This includes the depraved Final Fantasy games and their ilk, which create "Alternate" universes where A is non-A (ie, "magic" exists) and thus offend reason.

:blink:

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

I don't think anyone who plays Final Fantasy confuses it with reality and believes that Squaresoft is trying to assert that the abilities of FF characters are possible in real life.

P.S. I have owned every Final Fantasy game all the way back to old-school Nintendo and love them. The graphics are beautiful, the interfaces are always fresh and original, and they are games that require quite a bit of thought. FF XI is out now; I just bought it. They've added online capabilities that enables you to interact with other FF players worldwide. Does it get any better than that?

P.P.S. Videos games are not unproductive. They are a wonderful source of recreation.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Betsy, thank you for taking the time to really help me with my problem. I know it's been quite awhile since I've even visited this forum since I posted here, but I've been a little too busy. I have however, thought about what you said. I have all my own answers now, and I've shared them with my girlfriend. I won't put the answers on here, I don't think I was really supposed to anyway, but thank you for reminding me of "So what?"

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Incidentially, the individuals who take part in the actions you describe usually do so for the deliberate purpose of being aimless, and for the reason that they "have nothing better to do."

I think this is basically it, as far as the driving-issue goes.

There isn't anything wrong with driving as recreation.

But a lot of teenagers and perhaps young adults ...

Well, They're mindless, screaming, violent animals that drive really fast and play loud music constantly and "hang out" with eachother... all so that they can escape the fact that their lives are wastes.

Now, perhaps I've overgeneralized and exagerated, but I know the point is unavoidable.

Thats what is potentially really scarry or "irritatting"..etcetra

As for video games... they can be good and they can be bad. And I think if you aren't sure that your gaming isn't totally good, then there probably is room for improvement.

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But a lot of teenagers and perhaps young adults ...

Well, They're mindless, screaming, violent animals that drive really fast and play loud music constantly and "hang out" with eachother... all so that they can escape the fact that their lives are wastes.

Now, perhaps I've overgeneralized and exagerated, but I know the point is unavoidable.

Thats what is potentially really scarry or "irritatting"..etcetra

Why is this irritating or scary to you? If someone else wants to waste his time, how does that effect you?

Do you find the irrationality of others a threat to your values? How? Are these people interfering with your activities? How?

Unless there is a personal issue at stake, you would probably dismiss it as their problem and it wouldn't affect you emotionally at all. The fact that it arouses negative "pay attention" emotions, is a signal that there's something important here to introspect and think about.

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When people drive around in their cars all night, especially teenagers, as a form of entertainment.  For a reason I was unable to explain to her properly, that really irritates me.  I told her I found it to be a waste of time, that driving up and down the same road in your car for hours on end was an extremely non-productive activity.

I can identify with this sentiment. Near where I live, there used to be a large outdoor mall where people would come from miles to drive essentialy in circles around the mall. It was a pick-up spot for people between the ages of 18-25. I hated it. The noise, the lights, the god-awful music (most of it rap which to me is worse than Chinese water torture), the sum total of it made me feel just the way you do. The police eventually discontinued it because of complaints. I feel that only an idiot would drive up and down in such a fashion and that it could possibly be used as a proxy IQ test (or lack thereof). But I think the responses you have gotten are right. You shouldn't focus on it if you don't need to. As for your girlfriend liking this sort of activity. Well, that might be a concern. I think you need to ask yourself the nature of this relationship. If she's a fan of the driving-for-fun thing, she probably isn't the most cognitive minded of creatures. Accept her for what she is and make the most of it. Or find a girl who would likes to read.

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The fact that it arouses negative "pay attention" emotions, is a signal that there's something important here to introspect and think about.

I completly agree.

I would guess that this kind of thing is something many if not most people deal with.

As for myself, I've given some attention to it whenever I've had to pass a group of thugs on a sidewalk or serve a venoumous woman or an abusive man.

I havn't really ever worked out a complete answer. Two thoughts that I can remember having are:

1. The belief that evil is potent or powerful is relevant.

and

2. The belief that some nastyness people give me is deserved or that it is more real and important than other kinds of interaction.

I apprieciate the intelligence behind your questions, Betsy. And I thank you for asking them and setting them down in this thread.

I didn't answer your specific questions because this should be my first contribution to the general subject. But I'd guess that its the right response.

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1. The belief that evil is potent or powerful is relevant.

That's understandable, but as you get more experience with life, you will find how unhappy, anxious, guilty, and helpless evil people really are. In addition, you will discover all the ways you have in your power to avoid them and their bad effects on your life. Eventually, you can get to the place when, seeing them at their worst, you don't get upset or irritated, but just think, "How dumb!" and walk away unaffected.

2. The belief that some nastyness people give me is deserved or that it is more real and important than other kinds of interaction.

If it is deserved, you can fix the situation. If it isn't real or important, you can come to understand why. In either case, the power is YOURS.

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That's understandable, but as you get more experience with life, you will find how unhappy, anxious, guilty, and helpless evil people really are.  In addition, you will discover all the ways you have in your power to avoid them and their bad effects on your life.  Eventually, you can get to the place when, seeing them at their worst, you don't get upset or irritated, but just think, "How dumb!" and walk away unaffected.

Just 5 minutes ago, I was saying almost the exact same thing to a friend of mine. The effect another person's actions have on you (with the acception of forceful ones), is ultimately YOUR choice, not theirs.

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