Greed

[konerko14]

Does greed mean an excessive desire to make money or can the desire be less than that?

Does greed only pertain to wealth and material possessions?

[DavidOdden]

I don't think that greed only relates to physical possessions. To be excessive, there has to be a scale, where "greedy" would be beyond that point. So what is the standard by which the scale is esablished? The usual answer is "more than you deserve", which leaves unanswered the question "How much do you deserve?". There is not a lot of clear meaning to the word, which is why connotations about "excessiveness" take over.

[Ifat Glassman]

To be excessive, there has to be a scale, where "greedy" would be beyond that point. So what is the standard by which the scale is esablished? The usual answer is "more than you deserve"

Just wait until GreedyCapitalist gets here...

[Chops]

It is a pretty arbitrary word, as David pointed out.

Personally, I'd define it as "Acquiring more than you've earned" where what "you've earned" being defined at that point where in order to acquire more, you must violate someone else's rights.

I would not consider "Greed" to be wanting to keep what you've earned through moral means.

So, in answer to David's statement of "How much do you deserve?" is really defined as that threshold where you go from "respecting the rights of others" to "violating the rights of others."

[IAmMetaphysical]

greed

n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves

"aquire and posses" means: gain and keep, so it means and excessive desire to value, which means: an excessive desire to live, which is quite impossible, so I contend that "greed" is an invalid concept based on the altruist morality's view of life. The whole need and deserve part is non-essential. Wanting more than you need for what? For the immediate moment? For a week? Is planning for the future greedy?

Wanting what you don't deserve is somewhat the opposite of greed, if you realize that the whole altruist economic scheme means recieving based on need and not desert.

[bobsponge]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I do not believe there is such thing as Greed. There is Envy, Lust, Jealousy, Selfishness, Condescention, Elitism (which are all often defined in the place of greed), but there is no such thing as Greed. I remember Neil Boortz talking about this once, and he said the same thing.

[IAmMetaphysical]

As an aside: is Elitism a bad thing?? I take being elite as being good.

[Vladimir Berkov]

I would agree that "greed" in the pejorative sense means aquiring more than what is earned or alloted by or to you.

For instance, let's say you are at a party and see a plate of scones on the table put out for the guests. It would be greedy to take all of the scones, leaving none for the other guests. This is the type of situation in which greed truly is a negative trait.

[konerko14]

So why is Objectivism commonly known to be an advocate of greed if we cant even define it?

[DarkWaters]

So why is Objectivism commonly known to be an advocate of greed if we cant even define it?

Objectivism, heralds selfishness, a well defined concept of egoism as opposed to altruism. We cannot say whether or not Objectivism preaches greed until we define it. DavidOdden and friends already pointed out the difficulty in providing a rigorous definition for the word greed. If it is defined in terms of excess, who is to determine what is excessive? Society? The individual? An unknowable supernatural entity? A giant purple space goat?

[RationalBiker]

A giant purple space goat?

Hey, that's my deity..

[softwareNerd]

If it is defined in terms of excess, who is to determine what is excessive?

Reality? (That is, if it is to be used legitimately.) As in, "in his greed he ate so much of that cake, that he now has a stomach ache".

[Styles2112]

Hmmm. I think Greed exists and I think it is an evil as well. Much like those before me stated, I think it's a want, or forcing, of the unearned. I always hated when people talk about those who are "ambitious" as if it were horrible. But I always had separated the two. To me, those who are ambitious are those who work hard and productive for their way to the top (in pretty much any work environment). Greed is for those who short-cut and step on people's throats on the way up (unethically). I'm not phrasing it well, but I hope you guys understand what I'm getting at.

i.e. a thief is greedy, initiating force for the unearned (I'm talking about those stealing tv's and such, not food for survival, but even they might fall in that catagory).

i.e. a person who steals a co-workers work and ideas to get promotions in a company is greedy.

[KendallJ]

So why is Objectivism commonly known to be an advocate of greed if we cant even define it?

I'll take that one.

I agree with Bobsponge, and I 'll even take it one further. I think greed is a Package Deal.

I've just started Peter Swartz "Understanding Package Deals" which covers the way anti-concepts are introduced to specifically destroy good concepts. I.e. how anti-concepts are integrations based upon non-essentials.

Anti-concepts are non-definitional, i.e. loosely defined. In this case "wanting too much". This concepts combines the ideas of wanting both the unearned, and the earned to a large degree. i.e. it combines the opposites by taking a non-essential trait, quantity, and making a new concept out of it.

What happens is it destroys the good concepts: i.e. ambition (wanting only the earned to a large degree), and excellence (actually earning it to a large degree).

Once you accept the concept, you can't analyze it on it fundamentals, so one can't advocate it, seriously. Talking about a concept used in its "perjorative sense" is a big tip off that a better concept exists.

I, as an Objectivist, advocate it, only as a "thowing it back in your face" way. In the same way that Rand uses "The Virtue of Selfishness" to try to take back the true concept of individualism, this would be the only way of adovcating greed, in an attempt to take back the true concepts of ambition, and excellence.

[psychotrope]

I've noticed that most people tend define greed as "wanting or having more than I have currently." And that's always how "excess" is defined too. People who earn $60,000 a year decry the "rich" for their "excess" when what they are really looking at is how much more the "rich" have than they do. By third-world standards the person who earns $60,000 could be decried for the same reasons.

So I've concluded that when someone says "The rich are so greedy," what they really mean is "I'm jealous because the rich have more than I do."

[gags]

So I've concluded that when someone says "The rich are so greedy," what they really mean is "I'm jealous because the rich have more than I do."

Good point. Envy is a far more destructive feeling than greed.

[JMeganSnow]

IFor instance, let's say you are at a party and see a plate of scones on the table put out for the guests. It would be greedy to take all of the scones, leaving none for the other guests. This is the type of situation in which greed truly is a negative trait.

It's not greedy to take all the scones if no one else wants the scones. Perhaps they're bad scones. The other partygoers aren't greedy for demanding scones when they couldn't bestir themselves to get to the party on time?

Good point. Envy is a far more destructive feeling than greed.

Envy qua envy is not destructive, it's natural. It's completely rational to want things that other people have. Heck, since pretty much everything is owned by someone, what else are you going to want? What's irrational is what people usually do about it: trying to take the whatever-it-is away from whoever has it.

[gags]

It's not greedy to take all the scones if no one else wants the scones. Perhaps they're bad scones. The other partygoers aren't greedy for demanding scones when they couldn't bestir themselves to get to the party on time?

Scones? What kind of parties do you go to JMS?

[KevinD]

To the extent that the term is meaningful, I would define "greed" an irrationally excessive desire, one which entails or leads to harmful consequences.

You could say that the farmer in the fable about the goose that laid the golden eggs "got greedy" — that is, he wanted more, and tried to obtain more, than he could legitimately lay claim to in reality. In doing so, he destroyed the very thing which would have (eventually) made him rich.

There's clearly a package-deal involved in the way most people think about and use the term.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Kevin Delaney

[konerko14]

I, as an Objectivist, advocate it, only as a "thowing it back in your face" way. In the same way that Rand uses "The Virtue of Selfishness" to try to take back the true concept of individualism, this would be the only way of adovcating greed, in an attempt to take back the true concepts of ambition, and excellence.

But the definition of greed, "wanting more than one deserves" doesnt really have anything to do with ambition and excellence. It seems like Ayn Rand just rearranged the meaning of 'greed' to fit her need.

[DavidOdden]

But the definition of greed, "wanting more than one deserves" doesnt really have anything to do with ambition and excellence. It seems like Ayn Rand just rearranged the meaning of 'greed' to fit her need.

If you re-read what he said, he did not say anything that suggests that Rand had a special definition of greed. If you check VOS, you will see that she does not use the term "greed" at all, or "greedy" except once in a quotative kind of way. There is no sense in which Rand uses "greed" or "greedy" as having a special meaning -- no rearrangement of the meaning of the word, whatsoever. And anyhow, "wanting more than one deserves" is not "the" meaning of the word, that is a spin put on the meaning by certain lexicographers. But let us just live with this definition for the moment. Then consider the typical wealthy tycoon, who is accused of greed, such as John D. Rockefeller or Bill Gates. But these gents deserve the wealth that they acquired, so the label doesn't refer to them. How about Rupert Murdoch, worth a mere $7.8 billion? No, he actually earned his wealth, so he deserved it, and he's not greedy either. So I'm having a hard time actually finding anyone who is greedy.

Oh, wait, I found one! Michael Moore apparently has multiple millions of dollars. And he does not deserve a dime. So he is our example of greed. Then I think I would agree that greed is evil.

[konerko14]

So what did Ayn Rand imply the meaning of 'greed' meant? She used it a lot throughout Atlas Shrugged, so she must have meant something by it. Heres an example from AS:

When Reardon and Dagny ask a stranger how to get to the Twentieth Century Motor Company. Reardon took out a ten dollar bill and extended it to the stranger, and asked "Would you please tell us the way to the factory?"

The man stared at the money with sullen indifference, not moving, not lifting a hand for it. If one were ever to see a man devoid of greed, thought Dagny, there he was.

[KendallJ]

So what did Ayn Rand imply the meaning of 'greed' meant? She used it a lot throughout Atlas Shrugged, so she must have meant something by it. Heres an example from AS:

When Reardon and Dagny ask a stranger how to get to the Twentieth Century Motor Company. Reardon took out a ten dollar bill and extended it to the stranger, and asked "Would you please tell us the way to the factory?"

The man stared at the money with sullen indifference, not moving, not lifting a hand for it. If one were ever to see a man devoid of greed, thought Dagny, there he was.

Well, I just checked the indexes of most of her major works as well as the Lexicon, and the term is not there. This partially would indicate what she thought of the concept.

This quote is exactly how I would expect her to use the concept as if it was an anti-concept. She is exposing the nature of the anti-concept. She is exposing and undoing it in her usage, isn't she? If greed really means "wanting too much" then lack of it means "wanting your fair share" and then there are many people who might fit that bill in general. But if greed is an anti concept mean to destroy the concept ambition, then lack of greed should not mean "wanting enough", but instead it really means "lacking all ambition". Look at who Dagny is referring to. Is it the average Joe, who just wants his own fair share? No. It's the person who doesn't want anything, including that which he would earn by giving her the information she is seeking. She in effect is saying, "now there is what greed (or it's lack thereof) really means".

[DavidOdden]

So what did Ayn Rand imply the meaning of 'greed' meant? She used it a lot throughout Atlas Shrugged, so she must have meant something by it {AS p. 266}

I think you're on the right track here. So the first question is, given the context of that chapter, what idea is she conveying and second, is that conveyed by her other uses of "greed" in AS? Leaving the second question aside, what about the first?

[addendum]

Oh, fiddle, plot spoiler and all . That's what happens when you take the dog out for a few minutes for a romp in the snow in the middle of a post. Anyhow, the point is, look at the totality of the uses of "greed(y)" in AS, especially how greed is seen as a vice (and why it is). Now look at the particular individual -- the reductio ad absurdem of the anti-greed crowd. More accurately, the "I'd commit suicide but I just can't be bothered" crowd.

Edited October 21, 2006 by DavidOdden

[konerko14]

Heres two more quotes from Atlas Shrugged(they are only a couple pages apart):

Lee Hunsaker, president of Amalgamated Service, during a conversation with Dagny, kept saying, "if anybody would ever give me a chance." He goes on to say: "..we were young men embarking on great careers... But do you think anybody gave us any encouragement? They did not. Not those greedy, entrenched vultures of priviledge..."

Eugene Lawson, president of bank who loaned a large amount to Twentieth Century because they "needed it". Talking to Dagny, about his lost fortune: "But I do not mind it. What I lost was mere material wealth. I am not the first man in history to suffer for an ideal. I was defeated by the selfish greed of those around me. I couldnt establish a system of brotherhood and love in just one small state, amidst a nation of profit-seekers and dollar-grubbers."

Edited October 21, 2006 by konerko14