AshRyan Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 I think all recreational drug use is immoral, but on different levels. Leaving aside health and legal issues - "recreational drugs" are either a bad short-cut to a legitimate state of mind that can achieved on a reality-based approach, or creates a completely unnecessary and unbeneficial state of mind... I agree entirely with Eran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex_banana-eater Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 This I think is the main point in this issue, and many others besides. Is making a profit off the irrationality of others morally acceptable? Are not we encouraging this immorality through creating certain products? Irrationality of others? So if I market the same product a competitor has for a higher price (but use more marketting) and capture the buyers "irrationality", am I morally wrong? According to your same line of logic, I believe "yes" would be the answer. Would it be immoral to sell candy to a fat man? Yes--according to your previous reasoning. How have you firmly decided that drug use is literal destruction of values? Drug users use drugs because they feel it improves their life. Life isn't completely about physical well being for all people, but sometimes emotional and recreational activities offer a better benefit than a slight health risk to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex_banana-eater Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 I think all recreational drug use is immoral, but on different levels. Leaving aside health and legal issues - "recreational drugs" are either a bad short-cut to a legitimate state of mind that can achieved on a reality-based approach, or creates a completely unnecessary and unbeneficial state of mind. How can you claim drug experiences are always unbeneficial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Drug users use drugs because they feel it improves their life. Perhaps that's the problem. Rather than thinking about how drugs may be impacting their health AND their life, they are just acting on their feelings. It's important to think about what is causing those feelings. I'm sure the junkie who NEEDS his next fix FEELS that it's making his life better when he gets it. VES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearmint Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 There's non-'recreational' reasons for taking currently illegal drugs. Steroids would be a good example here, ephedra also. I believe that psychologist Timothy Leary published several papers showing positive results he had experienced using LSD with patients as part of 'behavoir alteration' experiments, prior to it being outlawed. Etc. Not that recreational use alone is immoral, provided that the drug isn't significantly damaging to you in the long term. Theres no conclusive research that links drugs like marajiuna/MDMA to long term health problems, and I dont think theres any for psychadelics such as mushrooms/LSD either. Obviously addiction/dependency/'escapism' is a serious prolem, but that applies to pretty much everything; a person who relies on television to fill up all his spare time isn't morally superior to someone who uses receational drugs to do the same. Moderation would be the key factor; drugs (if used at all) should be a supplement to a happy and productive life, not a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Not that recreational use alone is immoral, provided that the drug isn't significantly damaging to you in the long term. Theres no conclusive research that links drugs like marajiuna/MDMA to long term health problems, and I dont think theres any for psychadelics such as mushrooms/LSD either. In answer to the question "what is morality," in The Objectivist Ethics Ayn Rand states: "It is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions -- the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life." Further on she says "Since reason is man's basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." Rationality is the prime Objectivist virtue, the one virtue at the root of all others. If moral judgment is to mean anything at all, then first and foremost we judge a person on his commitment to reason, to "a state of full, conscious awareness, to the maintenance of a full mental focus on all issues, in all choices, in all of one's waking hours." At any given moment we can raise the level of our awareness to deal with some fact of reality, or we can lower our awareness in an attempt to evade the fact. It is this act of volitional control over of our consciousness, and the continuing use of reason to guide our thinking, which is at the heart of morality, or immorality. Long-term health problems is a significance issue but, an even more immediate concern is the reason for using these "recreational" drugs, and the drug's effect on the mind. If the purpose of the drug is to reduce awareness, to narrow one's reasoning abilities, to lose oneself in a hallucinatory stupor, then how can such actions not be seen as immorality? One does not necessarily need a drug to lose oneself in a mindless task so as to evade issues and concerns, but "recreational" drugs are quite useful for accelerating that activity. It is not a stretch to realize that those who use drugs to change their consciousness are not quite happy with the consciousness that they have. A man committed to, and in love with his own awareness, has no need and does not seek through drugs to change his conscious state to something less, in order to experience anything at all. As Ayn Rand wrote, in Part V of "The Comprachicos," The Objectivist, December 1970, "Men who have found the right way of life do not seek to escape from awareness, to obliterate their consciousness and to drug themselves out of existence." Obviously addiction/dependency/'escapism' is a serious prolem, but that applies to pretty much everything; a person who relies on television to fill up all his spare time isn't morally superior to someone who uses receational drugs to do the same. Moderation would be the key factor; drugs (if used at all) should be a supplement to a happy and productive life, not a replacement. I agree with the first sentence, but I would suggest thinking again about the last one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Not that recreational use alone is immoral, provided that the drug isn't significantly damaging to you in the long term. You may be interested in a discussion of recreational drug use on two radio shows hosted by Objectivist entertainer PRODOS. Both programs are available to listen to and download in RealMedia at the links provided underneath each program description. UNDERSTANDING DRUG USE - Part 1: From the viewpoint of users Peter: "As a teenager I listened to the Beatles and put trying LSD on my list of things to do . . . With magic mushrooms it's like you can talk to God" Fiona: "Cocaine is like snorting a line of confidence. Ecstasy is the best day in your life pill" This is part one of a two part series where we seek to understand drug use. On this show we speak with two 'recreational' users. On the next show we invite philosopher, Dr Andrew Bernstein, and psychologist, Dr Ellen Kenner, to offer their analysis and comments. Peter and Fiona are not junkies or addicts. Peter runs a successful restaurant and Fiona is an international model. They have used: LSD, Marijuana, Cocaine, Amphetamines, Hash, Opium, Heroine, and Ecstasy. We discuss: Their favourite drugs. Why they use them. The experience of using each drug. How they started. The notion of escapism and comparing different types of 'recreational' escapism with using drugs like: travel, fishing, going to Disneyland, seeing a movie. The use of drugs for 'enhancement' and celebration. Telling reality from fantasy. Can drugs enhance creativity? Their views on using drugs safely, like checking the quality, buying from trusted suppliers. And much more. http://www.prodos.com/archive015understandingdruguse.html === UNDERSTANDING DRUG USE - Part 2: Can drug use ever be rational? Dr Ellen Kenner: "Do the drugs actually serve their emotional purpose?" Dr Andrew Bernstein: "Emotions are rightly the consequence of our achieving our values." This is part 2 or our two part series exploring the use of drugs. Please listen to Part 1, below, before proceeding. From the Ayn Rand Institute, Psychotherapist, Ellen Kenner, and Philosopher, Andrew Bernstein examine the issues raised by 'recreational' drug users Peter and Fiona. Topics covered include: Can there be a safe use of drugs? Would there be anything wrong with invoking pleasure, confidence, ecstasy by direct stimulation of the brain? The cause-and-effect connection between emotions, values, action. The issue of escapism, recreation and fun. Using drugs to deal or alter feelings. Can 'cocaine confidence' be transferred to everyday life? Achieving the virtue of independence. Emotions as a reward for achieving values. Emotions as signals that guide us. Can one be better off in any way by using drugs? Given the potential life offers is drug use selfish enough? http://www.prodos.com/archive016understandingdruguse.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 If the purpose of the drug is to reduce awareness, to narrow one's reasoning abilities, to lose oneself in a hallucinatory stupor, then how can such actions not be seen as immorality? IF that is the purpose of recreational drug use, then you are correct, Stephen. It cannot be seen as anything but immoral. I will argue that it isn't necessarily the purpose of ALL recreational drug use, however. Take marijuana, for example. Used in small amounts, it does little to impare anything. The effect is more along the lines of relaxation than those you described. How is this any different from the man who has one or two (alcoholic) drinks for the same effect? I'll also add that marijuana is much less physically harmful than alcohol. I will concede that, when not used in moderation, marijuana can do exactly what you said. When used to excess, as a means of evading reality, it is certainly immoral. Betsy: I am very interested in the discussion you posted. I will be checking it out when I have a little time. Thank you for the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 IF that is the purpose of recreational drug use, then you are correct, Stephen. It cannot be seen as anything but immoral. I will argue that it isn't necessarily the purpose of ALL recreational drug use, however. Take marijuana, for example. Used in small amounts, it does little to impare anything. The effect is more along the lines of relaxation than those you described. Are you suggesting that marijuana is relaxing the way that a body massage, or a warm bath, might be relaxing? If so, I do not think that to be the case. A massage or bath directly and physically affects the body (muscles, joints, etc.) but marijuana directly affects the mind. Each may lead to "relaxation" by reducing tension, but by completely different routes. Marijuana impairs the functioning of consciousness, in both awareness and judgment. I see below you also liken its use to the effect of alcohol. That is right, and alcohol has the same reducing effect on awareness and judgment. If that is how some people need to 'relax,' by lowering the level and capability of their consciousness, the I would suggest their efforts would be more wisely spent in discovering the source of their psychological need to become less aware, in order to reduce their tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jrshep Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 ...deleted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Does this mean that it is immoral to drink alcohol? If it is not always immoral to drink alcohol, when would it be and when would it not be immoral? Conscious awareness is our means of staying in touch with reality. The goal of focusing our conscious mind is that awareness. Evasion is a means of subverting that goal, and that deliberate, willful act of evasion is immoral. If alcohol, or any other substance, serves that purpose of evasion, then that act too is immoral. If people enjoy alcohol as a drink, with their meal or in some social context, I have as little concern with that as I would have about drinking apple juice. But, to the extent that alcohol is needed to "relax," and to the extent that the degree of consumption impairs the ability to properly deal with whatever task is at hand, then such actions would range from not good to immoral, depending on the purpose of the choice and the severity of the result. We regulate our awareness to be in accord with whatever task is at hand. If we have to study for an important test tomorrow, an activity which might require the most acute mental functioning we are capable of, then the choice to take a substance which momentarily relieves the anxiety of the impending test -- to "relax" -- at the expense of dulling our thinking capacity, would be an immoral choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 We regulate our awareness to be in accord with whatever task is at hand. If we have to study for an important test tomorrow, an activity which might require the most acute mental functioning we are capable of, then the choice to take a substance which momentarily relieves the anxiety of the impending test -- to "relax" -- at the expense of dulling our thinking capacity, would be an immoral choice. Suppose there is no important test to study for. You are just going to have a nice restful evening at home. I see no difference between having a glass of good wine with dinner and a hit of pot after it. A hit of marijuana isn't evading anything. Used mildly there is no more loss of awareness, no more "dulling of the senses", as you put it, than can be found in one alcoholic beverage. Yes, smoking pot (or drinking, or using any substance, for that matter) when you should be studying for a test, working, driving, or doing any number of other things which require your undivided focus, is immoral. What it all boils down to is where a drug falls in your value system. Those addicted to hard drugs (most noteably, heroin), place the drug at a level with (in some cases, even higher than) their life.This is drug abuse at its worst; utterly disgusting. To place it higher than any productive value would be immoral. But condemn a man for a completely harmless indulgence? I don't condemn him. Frankly, I would rather concentrate apects of a man's character the do matter. P.S. One more comment to add, Stephen, in agreement to another one of your statements: Yes, if a man needs some sort of substance to relax (meaning he can not/will not relax any other way), there is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. P.P.S.This doesn't pertain directly to the topic at hand, but I recommend reading Don Watkin's blog entry on quitting smoking. I found his ideas about addiction extremely interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 ... A hit of marijuana isn't evading anything. Used mildly there is no more loss of awareness, no more "dulling of the senses", as you put it, than can be found in one alcoholic beverage.... What it all boils down to is where a drug falls in your value system. First, please quote me correctly. I did not say "dulling of the senses." I said "dulling our thinking capacity." (Hmm. It is after dinner time. Did something affect your awareness of what I said?) Second, my "value system" is such that I place no positive value on taking a substance which reduces my awareness, lessens my reasoning ability, and adversely affects my judgment. I make no disinction in that regard between marijuana, alcohol, or any other similar substance. I like my mind and my awareness just like it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_Connery Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Objectivists, I think we can all agree, approve of the use of body enhancing drugs. These are a short-cut to a legitimate state of being physically. Why then would we disapprove of a short cut to a mental state of being? (Assuming there were no negative side-effects) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex_banana-eater Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 I don't mean to hijack, however I'd like to hear some opinions on this article by someone I've talked to: http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=223&pf=1&noupdate=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Why then would we disapprove of a short cut to a mental state of being? (Assuming there were no negative side-effects) I do not like the use of "short cut to a mental state" because of the possible connotation that such a shortcut is in lieu of mental effort, rather than as adjunct. But, I suspect your intent was to say something like "Why would we disapprove of a substance which were to enhance one's proper mental state?" If that is what you meant, then, leaving aside a number of scientific and psychological issues, I for one would have no objection to the safe use of a substance which enhanced my awareness, sharpened my thinking ability, and affected my judgment in a positive way. What I have objected to in this thread, and continue to object to, is the use of a substance which reduces my awareness, lessens my reasoning ability, and adversely affects my judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 I for one would have no objection to the safe use of a substance which enhanced my awareness, sharpened my thinking ability, and affected my judgment in a positive way. A pretty good description of my morning cup of coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 A pretty good description of my morning cup of coffee. To me, it's the perfect cup of tea made by my own hands Dinesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Thanks again for your excellent posts, Mr. Speicher. You have expressed my thoughts on this topic exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwakeAndFree Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Dinesh, What kind of tea do you mean? In Israel they started selling some very nice Indian Chai, which is great in cold winters. But it's ready-made. Do you actually pick your own herbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_speicher Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Thanks again for your excellent posts, Mr. Speicher. You have expressed my thoughts on this topic exactly. Well, again, you're most welcome. But please, again, Stephen is just fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Well, again, you're most welcome. But please, again, Stephen is just fine with me. All right, I think I've got it now, Stephen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manavmehta Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 (edited) (Background note from Mod: A thread (link) about the movie "American Beauty" turn to a discussion about dealing in drugs, because one of the characters sells illegal drugs. This sparked discussion about activities like selling knives and guns, etc. Since the discussion appears to be more than just a passing aside, I'm creating a separate thread for it, and will move some of the relevant posts from the movie-thread into this one. (Earlier this forum had a pretty long thread ago about tobacco, drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc. It might be of interest.) - SoftwareNerd] End of Background note ) What about them? I enjoyed the movie and especially admired the kid with all the technology: he ran his own business (and ran it off of contraband, which gains my doubly admiration) and exuded much self-confidence. I don't consider the selling of drugs to be a productive or creative endeavour. While alcohol does have some genuine recreational value, drugs are of no value whatsoever to a society of rational men. The only "value" of drugs (if you can call it that) is that they help you to escape reality, to escape a focused (sober) state of consciousness to enter a state of consciousness that is unequivocally un-focussed, and I don't get why a rational person would ever want to do that (for that matter, I don't understand people who like to get stone drunk on alcohol either). So, I don't think the kid is worthy of admiration for running a business that caters to the vices of people, instead of indulging in a more productive activity. I don't subscribe to the view that the running of a business as such is to be considered a virtue, regardless of the context i.e. what value the business offers to its customers. Such a view would regard a contract assasin and an industrialist to be morally equivalent, since they both run businesses! Edited May 22, 2005 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iouswuoibev Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I don't consider the selling of drugs to be a productive or creative endeavour. While alcohol does have some genuine recreational value, drugs are of no value whatsoever to a society of rational men. Alcohol is a drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_w Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 (edited) "I don't consider the selling of drugs to be a productive or creative endeavour." so the individuals at bristolmyerssquib and pfizer et al are productive because they wear the white collar when they sell "legal" drugs? and the mcd job vs white collar is immaterial unless it is the case where whoever is in either job is fulfilling their potential no? Edited May 18, 2005 by dawn_w Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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