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Well I've been having some problems with this and I would greatly appreciate other member's opinions, young or old, new or seasoned to the forum.

First off, I'm 15 years old. I'm a freshman at a Jesuit high school, (How unfortunate.) and I am a very strong objectivist, as is my father. My mother is a typical Christian-Republican. I have read all of Ayn Rand's major works, including Atlas Shrugged; as well as The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.

Now that were through with that:

People, peers or otherwise, have thought my outlook on life and ethics questionable at best, threatening at worst. I am an atheist, the only one in my grade level, (Save one more, who is a pseudo-objectivist, his last name is Rand ironically) and I have encountered quite a bit of hostility from my teachers and classmates on the "god" question, as well as the "need to give" issue. But that's not really the problem; actually I expected that. I'm sure that alone does not make me special.

The real topic I wish adressed is the unacceptence I receive from older Ojbectivists. I attended the Law convention in Denver with my father last April, and many were amazed to find a "Randroid" my age. That is also to be expected, though. The real problem is here, on the web. I have been rejected/removed from a number of mailing lists, including Jack Crawford's, because of my age. Now as long as I dont clutter the bandwith with silly messages or the other members are forwarding pornography, (impossible at best) I saw no reason I could not participate. I believe I have a relatively firm grasp on the philosophy and ethics, yet I am regularly removed from forums or groups because of my age.

Now your turn. Do you find my age odd or disturbing? Is this just a choice few, or the entire community? The idea is against Objectivism, to be sure, and so I said to the aforementioned Crawford. But do you all have a problem, or is it me who has it?

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Now your turn. Do you find my age odd or disturbing? Is this just a choice few, or the entire community? The idea is against Objectivism, to be sure, and so I said to the aforementioned Crawford. But do you all have a problem, or is it me who has it?

Welcome to the forum!

First off, objectively you should realize that one post from you would not be adequate enough for any of us to assess you character or your knowledge/understanding/integration of Objectivism. No fair or accurate answer (IMHO) can be rendered as to whether it's you or them. Perhaps after you have demonstrated your knowledge and your character (and perhaps personality), I (or we) could give you a more informed opinion.

Likewise, we have no information from these other people with which to evaluate your case.

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I have been rejected/removed from a number of mailing lists, ..., because of my age. ... I am regularly removed from forums or groups because of my age.
Are you sure it's primarily because of your age? What I mean is, do these forum owners say something along the lines of: "Rommel, your posts are excellent, but we're sorry we just do not allow 15-year olds on the list; we'd love to have you back in a year or two." Or, do they say something about your posts, and mention your age as a contributing factor?

We have a few members who are your age, and -- if my memory is right -- we have at least one 14 year old. So, welcome to the forum.

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First off, I'm 15 years old. I'm a freshman at a Jesuit high school, (How unfortunate.) and I am a very strong objectivist, as is my father. My mother is a typical Christian-Republican. I have read all of Ayn Rand's major works, including Atlas Shrugged; as well as The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.

I'm 17 for another month now. I really wished I would have gotten into Objectivism sooner, at 15 I was nowhere near where I am today, I suppressed my individual streak for a long time before I finally let it loose and wound up in a whole lot of trouble for it. I finally came around at the start of this year and haven't been happier.

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No, unfortunately no explanation was given. Just

"Thank you for your reply, but I shall remove you from the list/forum. It is for adults"

That was the excact reply I got from our esteemed colleague Mr. Crawford, to which I replied with a scathing several-paragraph email about how it was so in line with Mrs. Rand's philosophy to judge one based on one's age. He has yet to reply, but that was in June.

Edited by JMeganSnow
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What has Rand's philosophy got to do with that, unless one knows the reasons behind excluding non-adults? For instance, it is quite possible that the list owner does not want to discuss issues with minors -- even smart minors with whom he agrees -- in a situation where the legal guardians of those minors might have a legitimate objection to such discussion.

It is best not to rush to judgement without understanding more. Many a time, you might think that the only reason a person would do something is "Reason A", which is an irrational reason; and that may lead you to condemn them. My advice is to keep that condemnation to yourself for a while, and politely explore the other person's reasoning. Once you have "peeled away enough layers" of reasoning, to be more sure that the person is indeed being irrational, then that is the time to act accordingly.

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You make a fair point softwarenerd, but I was more keeping it in line with values and views expressed in her essay on racism in The Virtue of Selfishness, that it is foolish to judge someone based on one's race. From there you can draw a simple analogy to judging one based on other attributes like age or gender, etc.

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You make a fair point softwarenerd, but I was more keeping it in line with values and views expressed in her essay on racism in The Virtue of Selfishness, that it is foolish to judge someone based on one's race. From there you can draw a simple analogy to judging one based on other attributes like age or gender, etc.

Dude your only 15 you have no idea what your talking about. Go watch ninja turtles.... :pimp:

Im just kidding Rommel =) I got into Objectivism at a young age too. I wouldnt worry about it too much- your more then welcome here. And btw, ninja turtles is awesome.

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Are you people like 7, or 16?

Ninja turtles is for kids. Dragon Ball Z, on the other hand... is a different matter :pimp: .

I use to be a DBZ junkie too. I still have all the episodes on DVD!!!! I stopped watching when I realized they kept reworking the same plot over and over and over. Everythings peaceful, then a bad guy comes, they fight and they start winning, and then he turns into a super bad guy and then woops them all, then they turn into super duper sayans and then he turns into super duper bad guy, then they become super duper sayans and then everyone dies and they have to get the dragonballs to ressurect everyone... =(

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Well I've been having some problems with this and I would greatly appreciate other member's opinions, young or old, new or seasoned to the forum.

First off, I'm 15 years old. I'm a freshman at a Jesuit high school, (How unfortunate.) and I am a very strong objectivist, as is my father.

Now that were through with that:

People, peers or otherwise, have thought my outlook on life and ethics questionable at best, threatening at worst. I am an atheist, the only one in my grade level, (Save one more, who is a pseudo-objectivist, his last name is Rand ironically) and I have encountered quite a bit of hostility from my teachers and classmates on the "god" question, as well as the "need to give" issue. But that's not really the problem; actually I expected that. I'm sure that alone does not make me special.

The real topic I wish adressed is the unacceptence I receive from older Ojbectivists....

OK,

First--Ditch the Jesuit/Catholic/Religion thing--religion is BULLSHIT and INCOMPATABLE with OBJECTIVISM: You cannot be a subjectivist AND an oBJECTIVIST AT THE SAME TIME--No Way!

Second--Stand Alone just like John Galt ! Never worry about whether or not you are being accepted ! If being accepted by others is among your highest values, then join a church, and drop Objectivism.

Streamline

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[cut]

Now your turn. Do you find my age odd or disturbing? Is this just a choice few, or the entire community? The idea is against Objectivism, to be sure, and so I said to the aforementioned Crawford. But do you all have a problem, or is it me who has it?

It'd be a bit hypocritical of me to be disturbed by your age. I'm 17, but I was 15 when I first joined this forum. (I had to go look that up; I can't believe it's been that long already.) I wouldn't worry too much about being excluded from internet groups. The problem with internet socializing is that it gets out of control fairly easily and that leads people to restrict their sites more than is probably ideal, in order to preserve their member base. Because, honestly, how many other kids your age do you know that would be able to have a decent discussion on serious topics with adults? It's the curse of being precocious. :ninja: I've never encountered that problem personally, however.

Welcome to the forum!

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Because, honestly, how many other kids your age do you know that would be able to have a decent discussion on serious topics with adults?

It's the curse of being a subject of the public school prison system. Those who attend SVS (google for sudbury valley) schools are able to discuss things at an adult level, because of the rich experiences they've had interacting with other students and staff and just doing their own thing. The above problem is not an age issue, but mostly because the system doesn't allow for children or young people to have experiences of their own.

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Maybe it wouldn't necessarily be an age issue, but the problem is is that most people I've encountered in the "public school prison system" don't care that they're not learning anything.

I have a lot of resentment for the public education system, but on some level the students have to take some responsibillity too.

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I have a lot of resentment for the public education system, but on some level the students have to take some responsibillity too.

How can they be responsible in a system that fosters dependency? This issue has to do with "The Fourth Purpose" of the Prussian Public Schooling system. Please read Underground History of American Education available online for free.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

Also: Against School : How Public Education Cripples Our Kids, And Why?

http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

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One afternoon when I was seven I complained to him of boredom, and he batted me hard on the head. He told me that I was never to use that term in his presence again, that if I was bored it was my fault and no one else's.

This is what I was trying to get at. Yes, public schools are intent on crippling a child's learning. However, the students, for the most part, sit there and let them, and that makes me angry. Plenty of them know that they aren't learning anything, that school is boring, useless, a waste of time, etc. But they don't do anything. They don't say anything. They don't care. They accept the dependency and the idea that it is the school's job to teach them. Plenty of them aren't even angry. They are bored and they don't care, and I can't say for certain whether they got this attitude from their parents or from their teachers. But can we really blame it all on the parents or the teachers? Doesn't that take away the credit from the kids who actually survive with their minds intact?

I'm not arguing with you that the education system is a horrible, evil mess. But I still don't think that we can absolve kids who would rather watch American Idol than read Les Miserables of all guilt for their ignorance. We can be angry over the hours they have to waste in school, certainly, and I have a personal rage against that, but life is not all school.

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In response:

First; I'm not at all religious. I'm an atheist as I suspect most, if not all objectivists are, yet I have the misfortunte of having a Catholic mother. (Objectivist father.) However, Rockhurst is a great school, regardless of its religion, and I've encountered little hostility or "shunning" from other students because of my religious choices. It's the fact that we are required more semesters of thelogy than science that disturbs me. In fact, my atheism has become a sort of system of recognition for me, I'm dubbed the "atheist kid" or "everyone's favorite atheist" which amuses me.

Second; I don't really care what other people think. However, the fact that they remain in positions of power relative to their respective forums and newsletters seriously hampers my ability to receive and share information, so the very fact that a simple age difference is preventing me from getting possibly-important updates and information on a common philosophy bothers me; it is not the fact itself that bothers me, but rather, its results.

-Rommel

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In response:

I'm an atheist as I suspect most, if not all objectivists are,

That's kind of a requirement. If you aren't atheist, you're not an objectivist. You can't just accept the parts you like and say "oh well I'm an objectivist, but ..."

Have you asked why that is their policy yet? Why don't you get the information another way? If your father is sympathetic, why don't you ask him to join the mailing list and share the information with you? (This is assuming that this isn't a terms of use or other policy violation.)

By the way, welcome to the forums. :waves:

Edited by Nate
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But I still don't think that we can absolve kids who would rather watch American Idol than read Les Miserables of all guilt for their ignorance.

*snort* If that isn't an elistist statement. Les Mis is a hard read (largely because there are large sections with no plot action whatsoever, IMO) and many people don't enjoy reading. I've read Les Mis and I have probably the most minimalist education possible, while my housemate, who has an actual education and a MUCH better job than I do, follows American Idol.

And then there's my Dad, who has a doctoral degree in engineering and watches Saturday morning cartoons. The truth is that you can't judge someone's degree of education or intellectualism by what they do for recreation.

It doesn't detract from your accomplishment if we don't blame children that collapsed under pressure. It's counter-productive to attack someone for not being a genius or not having heroic independence or not raising their own selves if their parents fell down on the job. It's not evil to try and fail, and even I never, quite, reached the stage of not trying at all.

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*snort* If that isn't an elistist statement. Les Mis is a hard read (largely because there are large sections with no plot action whatsoever, IMO) and many people don't enjoy reading. I've read Les Mis and I have probably the most minimalist education possible, while my housemate, who has an actual education and a MUCH better job than I do, follows American Idol.

And then there's my Dad, who has a doctoral degree in engineering and watches Saturday morning cartoons. The truth is that you can't judge someone's degree of education or intellectualism by what they do for recreation.

Ouch. Okay, you're right, and I'm sorry. It was a generalization that I shouldn't have made. My bitterness about my old school got in the way, which I shouldn't have let happen. I retract the statement and apologize if I offended anyone.

It doesn't detract from your accomplishment if we don't blame children that collapsed under pressure. It's counter-productive to attack someone for not being a genius or not having heroic independence or not raising their own selves if their parents fell down on the job. It's not evil to try and fail, and even I never, quite, reached the stage of not trying at all.

My accomplishment isn't much of one. I escaped. I transferred schools. I don't know how much longer I would have lasted at my old school. And in any case my dad raised me to be a good student and I'm no genius.

You said you never quite reached the stage of not trying. Well, what I'm trying to get at, is that I knew a lot of people at my old school who did reach that stage. I'm not talking about students that try to learn the material and fail, or students that are miserable in school because it's boring, pointless, etc. I'm talking about the students who hate any subject that's difficult, who think school is worthless and are still perfectly happy attending it, who not only don't try, but don't ever want to. Even if they had a way out of the public schools, they wouldn't take it, because it would be harder.

What I want to know is at what point does this stop being the fault of the teachers or the parents and start being the fault of the student? Can we really blame parents or schools for every person that graduates from high school unmotivated, unhappy, and unprepared?

To that end, do you think that the legal system should give less severe punishments to criminals who had horrible parents?

I feel like I am missing something important here.

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