Self-sacrificial acts

[konerko14]

Konerko14: You asked, in post 1, "What are the most common self-sacrificial acts people commit nowadays?"

My first question is "common - for who's culture and society?".

Any culture and society.

The next question that I have is "Why is this of value to you?" If, in each location, what is sacrificed is different then in another, to answer your question, "everything is the most common self-sacrifical acts".

I want to know how the belief in altruism translates into these peoples' actions. Not all of them will make the same decisions but I knew there would be the most common acts between them.

[Time_Maker]

Cogito: In you post number 25, You made a comment about my deep psychoanalysis of the question that is being asked.

I discovered something in my life. Simple questions usually have a lot of assumptions behind them. Thats why I analyze and question the most simplest questions, and then I keep on questioning it until I am happy with the answer.

Konerko14: Sadly, I can't answer your question. I am an expert in sociology. In fact in my college sociology class, we spent most of the time talking about Star Trek. So sadly, I only know about what I have seen. But good luck though.

[Ifat Glassman]

I have a suspicion (just a suspicion, not a fact, or any evidence to back this up besides a gut feeling) that this is just some type of a test. What value does it bring to me to tell you what type of self-sacrificial acts people commit? By me answering this question, wouldn't I be engaging in self-sacrifice, because there wouldn't be any exchange of values?

This statement, Time Maker, seems to assume that participating in this thread is a sacrifice, or that sharing information you have in this thread is a sacrifice ("By me answering this question, wouldn't I be engaging in self-sacrifice?").

So do you see it as a sacrifice? and if you do, why did you post anything at all? (how is posting something which is other than the answer not a sacrifice, while posting something that IS the answer, is a sacrifice?)

I discovered something in my life. Simple questions usually have a lot of assumptions behind them. Thats why I analyze and question the most simplest questions, and then I keep on questioning it until I am happy with the answer.

Wouldn't that make you drift from any subject you attempt to discuss with someone, making your discussions highly inefficient though?

Konerko14: Sadly, I can't answer your question. I am an expert in sociology. In fact in my college sociology class, we spent most of the time talking about Star Trek.

Wouldn't that make you a Star Trek expert rather than a sociology expert? And what kind of knowledge in sociology makes one an expert in the field? I would just like to know because I studies sociology in HS and it was the biggest pile of BS I ever saw in my life (though, psychology was a competitor).

[konerko14]

White lies? How about when you receive a gift from someone and you honestly know that you wont get any use out of it. They ask you, "So what do you think of your gift?" What is the best way to handle this situation?

Heres some reply to consider:

-"I hate it, you bastard!"

-"How dare you."

-"And you call me your husband?"

-(lie)"Its perfect. I love it."

[curiosita]

The most common self-sacrificial act? I would have to say religion. Most, if not all, religions demand sacrificing the earthly for the holy, the here for the hereafter, or the bodily for the spiritual. People are unwilling to let go of faith, even though they (often) realize they would be far better off.

...Faith in general. It's the most common cop-out and the most harmful way of lying to yourself.

[LaszloWalrus]

White lies? How about when you receive a gift from someone and you honestly know that you wont get any use out of it. They ask you, "So what do you think of your gift?" What is the best way to handle this situation?

Heres some reply to consider:

-"I hate it, you bastard!"

-"How dare you."

-"And you call me your husband?"

-(lie)"Its perfect. I love it."

This is dependent upon context; if it were my spouse, and I didn't like the gift, I would tell her that it was not my favorite. I would owe her that honesty. If it were a stranger, it would depend upon the context.

[Time_Maker]

In post number 28, Ifat stated: "This statement, Time Maker, seems to assume that participating in this thread is a sacrifice, or that sharing information you have in this thread is a sacrifice"

Ifat Ifat Ifat - I love your sense of humour. In fact, I adore it. However, assuming you are making that statement in earnest, let me tell you why me asking the question wasn't an act of sacrifice.

A Sacrifice is an exchange of a higher value for a lower value. Now, my time is a value to me (hence the name, Time_Maker). However, the amount of value that I received by asking the question, "why are you interested in this subject", could have lead an increase, in the long term, of my value (because I could be understanding this subject more, for example).

You also stated "Wouldn't that [by "drilling down" to the root of the question] make you drift from any subject you attempt to discuss with someone, making your discussions highly inefficient though?"

Answer: No. If I wouldn't drill down in that fashion, then I wouldn't be able to understand the subject on hand.

Oh, I am also a Star Trek expert BTW. Ask me any question about Russia, or the USA, and I can explain it to you using analogues from Star Trek.

Konerko14: To answer your question, about a gift that you don't want, I would tell them the truth (which should work the vast majority of the time): "This gift will bring me great value". Why isn't this a lie? Because you can turn around and sell it for money (which is a value). Of course, the answer should vary who gives the gift, and in whatever context.

[curiosita]

I would tell them the truth (which should work the vast majority of the time): "This gift will bring me great value". Why isn't this a lie? Because you can turn around and sell it for money (which is a value). Of course, the answer should vary who gives the gift, and in whatever context.

Isn't this still a lie, since you are intentionally trying to lead the person who gave you the gift to a false conclusion? I'm guessing they will assume you like the gift, not that you're going to sell it. IMHO, even a true statement can be a lie if it's intent is to mislead someone.

Also, couldn't the gift be of value merely because it's a gift?

[Time_Maker]

Curiosita:

You brought up a very interesting point, which required me to think about the answer (which I like). However, to correctly answer your question, I need to separate your post.

1. "I'm guessing they will assume you like the gift, not that you're going to sell it."

Two common answers to this statement are "no, they won't assume I like the gift" and "Yes, they should assume that I like the gift", however, both of these answers are based on the idea that we should be focusing our attention on another person, and not on what is in our best interest. I get no value focusing on what another person thinks about me. I don't care what another person thinks, or how they judge me, or what they think my actions are. I only act in my best interest.

Everything material does have some type of intristic value, in its existence. A broken computer can be sold for scrap, a bad CD auctioned. Money is of a value to all of us, and that can be exchanged for goods or services that we like. Any gift (which is material) can be exchange for something that we want. Therefore, every gift is of value to our lives

2."Couldn't the gift be of value merely because it's a gift?"

The only way I see how that is possible is if you have some type of memory attached to that gift, which gives you pleasure every time you see it or look at it. Then I suppose if it gives you pleasure to look or use that gift, then I would say its of value.

[Inspector]

I get no value focusing on what another person thinks about me.

...So you don't have any friends? Anyone whose opinion you respect?

[curiosita]

In response to Time_Maker:

"I don't care what another person thinks, or how they judge me, or what they think my actions are. I only act in my best interest."

Then why not tell them that you don't like the gift, and that you're probably going to sell it?

(On a side note, I agree that one should act in their own interests, not to please others, but isn't it a bonus if rational people admire your actions? I personally consider what other people think of me to be of great value--but I hold achieving my own goals infinitely higher.)

"The only way I see how that is possible is if you have some type of memory attached to that gift, which gives you pleasure every time you see it or look at it. Then I suppose if it gives you pleasure to look or use that gift, then I would say its of value."

Well, that was the idea. Gifts are of value because looking at them reminds you that somebody thought to give you a gift. They're a token of kindness (usually.)

[Tsuru]

I want to expand my knowledge on this topic, so hopefully I'll get some answers. What are the most common self-sacrificial acts people commit nowadays?

At the core, it's a life pattern of giving weight to - and buckling under the pressures of - the frivolous expectations and demands of petty authority figures, family, culture, peers, ect - at the expense of their happiness and dignity. A lack of a fundamental sense that one has the right to exist for their own sake.

Most people will usually stand their moral ground in extreme situations, but most people are readily willing to lose their morals and sell their souls in tiny bits and pieces at a time. It's going to church out of habbit, familial/cultural pressures, and vague existential fear/guilt - even though they hate it, find it boring, lose money on it, and gain nothing from it. It's abandoning their passions and going into a career that they hate and are miserable doing - merely because it's what was expected of them and the money was a little better. It's doing things for other people that they have no desire to do, out of guilt and obligation, with hidden resentment. It's not being able to say "no" to others.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Tsuru

[Time_Maker]

Hello Ya'll

The website has not been working for me recently, however, now that its up, I thought I should respond to some posts.

Ifatart, in post #28, stated "This statement, Time Maker, seems to assume that participating in this thread is a sacrifice, or that sharing information you have in this thread is a sacrifice ("By me answering this question, wouldn't I be engaging in self-sacrifice?").

So do you see it as a sacrifice? and if you do, why did you post anything at all? (how is posting something which is other than the answer not a sacrifice, while posting something that IS the answer, is a sacrifice?)

"

Nope, I don't see myself participating in this thread as a sacrifice. When I posted my comment, I wanted to know what the point of this thread was. Konerko14 responded with an answer that I liked, informing me (basically) that I would get value out of this thread. And moreover, even if the topic that he possessed wouldn't give me any value, some of the other topics in this thread (e.g. on white lies) would.

You also asked, in the same post "Wouldn't that make you drift from any subject you attempt to discuss with someone, making your discussions highly inefficient though?". Nope. All knowledge is built up on top of other knowledge. Without getting into epistemology (which is not what this thread is about), lets just agree that complex concepts are made up of simpler concepts, which are in tern made up of a combination of abstracts and concretes. Now, if I disagree with someone, I would like to know WHERE I (or another person) erred, which is why the questioning.

Inspector, you stated in post number 35, in response to my "I get no value focusing on what another person thinks of me", you stated "So you don't have any friends? Anyone whose opinion you respect?"

Sadly, I don't see the connection between my quote, and your question. Opinions of people who I respect, or friendship, has nothing to do with me focusing on another person thinks of me. In other words, your response to my quote is like me asking you what you think about the war in Iraq, and you responding about how much you like cream in your coffee. No connection between the two subjects, just like your response to my statement. If you can clarify it, that would be great.

Curiosita, in post number 36, in response to my statement "... I only act in my best interest." you asked "then why not tell them you don't like the gift and your going to sell it?"

Good question. First of all, a lot of people act on their emotions. In an Office Environment (where most gift giving happens, in my experience), this type of response will result in hurt feelings and bad blood in the office - something that would NOT be in my best interest. However, if another Objectivist gives me a gift, and I don't like it, I would tell him so.

You also asked, in a side note "isn't it a bonus if rational people admire your actions?". Sure, its a nice bonus, but I'm not going to make them admire my actions, nor do I care about their admiration. I won't do an action just because others might admire it, or because I'm thinking about what they think about it. In short, I don't care one way or another.

You also stated, that the purpose of a gift "are of value because looking at them reminds you that somebody thought to give you a gift. They're a token of kindness." Honestly, I never thought about a gift like that before. However, I do see a slight problem with it. What if I gave someone a box of chocolates? Should I expecting them to keep that gift forever, and not to consume it? Should I expect them to keep the box that used to have the candy, without throwing it away?

Tsuru: In post number 37, I think you answered the topic that was posted quite well, however, I think your response can be summarized a little bit better with "People are scared of change". Would that be a correct summary?

[Inspector]

Inspector, you stated in post number 35, in response to my "I get no value focusing on what another person thinks of me", you stated "So you don't have any friends? Anyone whose opinion you respect?"

Sadly, I don't see the connection between my quote, and your question. Opinions of people who I respect, or friendship, has nothing to do with me focusing on another person thinks of me. In other words, your response to my quote is like me asking you what you think about the war in Iraq, and you responding about how much you like cream in your coffee. No connection between the two subjects, just like your response to my statement. If you can clarify it, that would be great.

First, you should consider using the quote function. It's a little more work but easier on your readers. I'm disinclined to reply to someone who can't make their posts legible. Not worth my time. (That's meant as a gentle reminder, not a harsh reprimand, BTW)

I think I gave you more than enough to figure out the connection, but I will be more specific.

If you have friends and people whose opinions you respect, then how can you honestly say that you NEVER focus on what another person thinks of you. You would of course care that your friends think things that are true and not false, and the topic of youself is no exception. If your friend thought that poison was good food, wouldn't you focus on his thoughts enough to correct him? So what if his evaluation of you was similarly mistaken in some way? Wouldn't you focus on what he thought of you and seek to correct him?

My point is that your statement is a rationalistic interpretation of Objectivism's virtue of independence (and, as an aside, a lot of the other stuff you post up is similarly rationalistic). If you think it means that you NEVER focus on what others think of you, then you've missed the point by a wide margin.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Inspector