Ciscokid Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 On another forum a member posted this... there is a on-going debate on this issue. DISCUSSION HERE Hiring a prostitute does not imply low self esteem. The Logical Proof P = Prositute A = Someone J = John LSS = LowSelfEsteem CGS = CanGetSex Claim: (CGS(A) & Hires(A,P)) -> LSS(A) But: CGS(J) TRUE Hires(J,P) TRUE LSS(J) FALSE Thus: A = J -> ((CGS(A) & Hires(A,P)) -> ~LSS(A)) Therefore: ~((CGS(A) & Hires(A,P)) -> LSS(A)) The claim is made that hiring a prostitute when you can get sex implies implies that the person has low self esteem. John can get sex. John hires a prostitute. John does not have low self esteem. Thus, hiring a prostitute when you can get sex does not imply low self esteem. Therefore, the claim that hiring a prostitute when you can get sex implies low self esteem is false. The Truth Table X = CGS(A) Y = Hires(A,P) Z = LSS(A) X Y Z | (X & Y) -> Z T T T T T T T F T F T F T F T T F F F T F T T F T F T F F T F F T F T F F F F T A logical statement is valid if and only if there exists no counter example. The bolded line proves the claim is moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogito Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Who is this John fellow that hired a prostitute but doesn't have low self-esteem? Also, there was no need for the symbolic logic or truth tables... The sentences would've done the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y_feldblum Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 What's the point of formalizing this when English sentences work better to convey ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 pfft. Dont ask me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y_feldblum Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 How is this debate in any way important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 If its not important to you ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogito Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I've been reading through a few of the posts, and it is clear that the person who posted that proof has no understanding of logic. Yes, a counterexample disproves a statement, but only if that counterexample is true. He has yet to show that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I've been reading through a few of the posts, and it is clear that the person who posted that proof has no understanding of logic. Yes, a counterexample disproves a statement, but only if that counterexample is true. He has yet to show that. he says that a counter-example is true by default... then technically he didnt give a counter-example since what he said requires further proof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 What's the point of formalizing this when English sentences work better to convey ideas? Classic rationalism. As long as the "math" works out, it matters not one whit to this guy wether or not anything corresponds to the facts of reality. CGS is great. It leaves out the entire question of why would anyone want that type of sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogito Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 he says that a counter-example is true by default... then technically he didnt give a counter-example since what he said requires further proof? Exactly... His John counterexample is only useful if he can prove that there exists some John who doesn't lose self esteem when buying a prostitute... If we were to use his logic, no statement would be valid. As an example: All true statements are true. But I say that there is a true statement which is not true! Thus, not all true statements are true... Since there is no proof of the "I say" part, the conclusion is not valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Also, there was no need for the symbolic logic or truth tables... The sentences would've done the trick. x10. I will continue my policy of IGNORING anyone that uses that gobeltygook. IN ENGLISH, PLEASE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Exactly... His John counterexample is only useful if he can prove that there exists some John who doesn't lose self esteem when buying a prostitute... If we were to use his logic, no statement would be valid. As an example: All true statements are true. But I say that there is a true statement which is not true! Thus, not all true statements are true... Since there is no proof of the "I say" part, the conclusion is not valid. thats why I brought this up in the first place. I didnt understand where he was coming from. Whenever I have questions or need help understanding something, I come here, for the objectivity. Thats why this was important. To me anyway. Thanks for the clarification cogito and kendall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 In English, here is what the guy is saying: John "can get sex" and has high self-esteem; yet, he hires a prostitute. This disproves the assertion that a person who "can get sex" yet hires a prostitute has low self-esteem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 In English, here is what the guy is saying: i understand that, but does it really disprove / prove anything>? So what exactly is his point in saying anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 In English, here is what the guy is saying: Nice. Once you remove the froufrou, it's just an unsupported assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 i understand that, but does it really disprove / prove anything>? So what exactly is his point in saying anything.Well, if I say "all men are mortal" and you show me a man who is immortal, then that's going to throw a spanner in my assertion. Similarly, if I say "men of type X have low self-esteem" and you show me a man of type X with high self-esteem, then I have to go back to the drawing board. So, his "point" (though put forward in an amazingly complicated way) is simply to say: "No, John is a counter-example". I haven't looked at the original thread, but I suspect it would be very inefficient to try arguing with someone who is going to say simple things in such a complicated way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifat Glassman Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 If its not important to you ignore it. Ciscokid: just wanted to point out the fact that you did not answer his question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleph_0 Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Yeah, of the logic tricks out there, this one is pretty lame. First, it's poorly symbolized. Secondly, a sentence of logic of logic can only be "accepted" in one of three cases: Tautology, provisional assumption, or observational proof. None of the claims are tautologous (i.e. of the empty form, P v ~P, or any other such form), and none of them demonstrated by observation. That leaves provisional assumption. But if both are provisional assumptions, then the argument runs, "Suppose all people who can have sex, but who opt to hire a prostitute, have low self-esteem. Now also suppose that John can have sex but opts to hire a prostitute, and John does not have low self-esteem. Contradiction." What you conclude is not the denial of the first provisional assumption, since the second provisional assumption has not yet been discharged. What you conclude is that, only under the first provisional assumption, the second one is a reductio (reduces to contradiction). In formalization, PA (x)([Cx & Hxp] --> Lx) PA (RAA) (Cj & Hjp) & ~Lj Cj & Hjp Lj ~Lj PA (RAA) closure ~([Cj & Hjp] & ~Lj) And you could further add, rather vacuously, PA closure (x)([Cx & Hxp] --> Lx) --> ~([Cj & Hjp] & ~Lj) Note that this only comes after ALL provisional assumptions have been discharged. The proof is not an atomic sentence or conjunction of atomic sentences, but a conditional sentence. That is, it doesn't give us a hard fact like, "John is a counter-example," but only something like, "IF John is a counter-example to the rule, THEN the rule needs revision." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aequalsa Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Thus, hiring a prostitute when you can get sex does not imply low self esteem. (italics mine) This is a good example of why deduction without induction is extremely unuseful. The implication here is that proper self-esteem is derived from the ability to get sex without paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Doesn't this "proof" assume the conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleph_0 Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 (italics mine) This is a good example of why deduction without induction is extremely unuseful. The implication here is that proper self-esteem is derived from the ability to get sex without paying for it. Is that the implication? I thought it was the implication that poor self-esteem is derived from employing a prostitute. The strict implication of this being that failing to employ a prostitute does not eliminate the possibility of high self-esteem. That is to say, high self-esteem may be derived from some other means (of which it is ambiguous whether sex of any kind is involved). Doesn't this "proof" assume the conclusion? Which "proof"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y_feldblum Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Doesn't this "proof" assume the conclusion? Yes. But that's among the least of its problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciscokid Posted November 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Yes. But that's among the least of its problems. I didnt reply to his question of 'why this topic is important' because I dont believe it was sincere or relevant. If it wasnt an important topic, Id imagine a discussion wouldnt of taken place, or that he'd return. But thanks for hashing over it. aleph_0's posts were really helpful. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y_feldblum Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 My question was not on the importance of the morality of prostitution. It was on the importance of supposing an arbitrary proposition, with no evidence and no tie to reality, and then supposing a counterexample which one manufactured out of thin air, and calling it important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aequalsa Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Is that the implication? I thought it was the implication that poor self-esteem is derived from employing a prostitute. The strict implication of this being that failing to employ a prostitute does not eliminate the possibility of high self-esteem. That is to say, high self-esteem may be derived from some other means (of which it is ambiguous whether sex of any kind is involved). Which "proof"? I think it was that poor selfesteem is not derived from a prostitute so long as he can get sex otherwise. I take that to mean, that if he went to a prostitute because he could not otherwise get sex, then this would be indicative of poor selfesteem. So the ability to get sex without paying is the key indicator of self-esteem. I think. Really hard for me to understand. I haven't read the contextual discussion however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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