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kufa
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Hey Blinky,

According to your profile you seem to be studying in the Czech Republic. (I know Charles University has a phenomenal mathematics department; I suspect that the university as a whole has a stellar reputation.) How pervasive do you perceive academic dishonesty in the Czech Republic compared to various other nations of the world? How pervasive do you perceive corruption in general to be there?

I honestly know very little about your country so please do not misconstrue my inquiring as an implication. From my experiences, I have noticed that students from countries where corruption is more common seem to be less hesistant to cheat and tend to bear less shame. A Bayesian Analysis on this issue would be interesting.

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Hey Blinky,

According to your profile you seem to be studying in the Czech Republic. (I know Charles University has a phenomenal mathematics department; I suspect that the university as a whole has a stellar reputation.) How pervasive do you perceive academic dishonesty in the Czech Republic compared to various other nations of the world? How pervasive do you perceive corruption in general to be there?

I honestly know very little about your country so please do not misconstrue my inquiring as an implication. From my experiences, I have noticed that students from countries where corruption is more common seem to be less hesistant to cheat and tend to bear less shame. A Bayesian Analysis on this issue would be interesting.

To be sincere I don´t know much about cheating in other countries so I can´t compare. I haven´t known that mathematics department of Charles University is famous as well. I have to say that I don´t have bad experience with cheating at Charles University but at another one.

From some newspaper articles I know that corruption is considered here as a big problem (but I guess it´s better than in other post-communist countries). It stems probably from our communist history when it was quite normal to break some rule now and then (and quite rational too). So in my opinion this trait prevailed. But it´s just my guess, I don´t have any personal experience and because I am young I haven´t had much to do with bureaucracy yet.

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Hello Ya'll

I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond earlier, but this website kept on producing an error (I'm going to post it in the troubleshooting threads). With that said...

David Odden: In Post number 25, you stated:

"But you see, "force" when used directly and honectly, means that someone has a gun aimed at you saying "Do this or die", or knife to your throat, or is they don't actually have it to your throat it is still known that they will use violence against you if you don't comply. In this case, though, nobody is threating to cut or beat Kufa, so this really isn't a case of force"

So if I were to hold a gun to someone who you love head, and tell you to engage in an action, otherwise I will imprison that person, that would not be force? I think so, but it would violate the rights of one individual (a third party), which is the lack of freedom.

You also stated " It's a voluntary class."

No it isn't. High school is NOT voluntary. I am assuming you are still talking about this individual, and not an idealized or general idea.

You also stated: "Well, so far, in no state is anyone threatened with violence if they do not take an AP class."

I don't know any other way to sugarcoat it, but your wrong. To use a real life personal example (and I hate revealing myself on here...). I HATED high school. So I started skipping class (hiding out in the library and signing in with a fake name). Guess what my parents received at 6:00PM in the afternoon: An automated phone call saying that I skipped my physics class, my math class, and my gym class. Parents got upset, and I ignored it, of course.

So I continued to skip class and hide in the library. The next day, at home, a police officer shows up. This police officer informed my parents, with me present, to either make sure I attend class tomorrow, or I WILL BE put in a foster home and they WILL BE arrested.

This, DavidOdden, is force.

Mimpy, you stated in post #27 "The grade you will receive at the end of the semester will not be one you deserve. You have no right to that grade."

So the child does not have any right to his time, and the parents (if they so elect to get involved) any right to point direction to how they want their son taught?

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So if I were to hold a gun to someone who you love head, and tell you to engage in an action, otherwise I will imprison that person, that would not be force? I think so, but it would violate the rights of one individual (a third party), which is the lack of freedom.
Completely irrelevant, because nobody is forcing her to take the class, nor is anyone threatening her parents if she doesn't take this class.
You also stated " It's a voluntary class."
Completely irrelevant, because nobody is forcing her to take the class, nor is anyone threatening her parents if she doesn't take this class.
You also stated: "Well, so far, in no state is anyone threatened with violence if they do not take an AP class."

I don't know any other way to sugarcoat it, but your wrong. To use a real life personal example (and I hate revealing myself on here...). I HATED high school. So I started skipping class (hiding out in the library and signing in with a fake name). Guess what my parents received at 6:00PM in the afternoon: An automated phone call saying that I skipped my physics class, my math class, and my gym class. Parents got upset, and I ignored it, of course.

Completely irrelevant, because nobody is forcing her to take the class, nor is anyone threatening her parents if she doesn't take this class.

Please pay attention to what I am saying. I don't like to have to repeat myself. Nevertheless, you have violated my rights by forcing me to say in all caps that NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TAKE AN AP CLASS.

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Hello DavidOdden:

In post number 31, you stated "Completely irrelevant, because nobody is forcing her to take the class, nor is anyone threatening her parents if she doesn't take this class."

Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if otherwise), this individual is in HIGH SCHOOL. Therefore: This individual has no choice to his or her classes, no choice if he or she wants to attend, and no chance to escape.

You also stated "Completely irrelevant, because nobody is forcing her to take the class, nor is anyone threatening her parents if she doesn't take this class."

Says who? See my last paragraph. This individual is in High School. Under the government of the United States, this individual HAS NOT CHOICE. And because this is high school, her parents ARE being threaten.

You also stated "NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TAKE AN AP CLASS [caps are yours]." Oh really? When did being allowed to choose your own classes in high school started? If an individual is attending high school, they HAVE NO RIGHT to choose their own classes. NONE! NADA!

If you can quote for me where this individual stated that there was a choice, I would more then love to see it. Then, I would eat crow. But before that [bites tongue before I type something that will get me kicked]...

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Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if otherwise), this individual is in HIGH SCHOOL. Therefore: This individual has no choice to his or her classes, no choice if he or she wants to attend, and no chance to escape.

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here, but what?! As much as I hated the public high school I went to for my freshman year, AP classes there were completely voluntary. In fact, you had to get permission from the teacher to enroll in them. Sure, students under 16? (is that the age?) can't quit school, and that's a problem in itself, but as for specific classes. Some of them are mandatory, I give you that, but AP classes? No.

Just because some classes are mandatory doesn't mean all of them are. Any school that has AP classes ought to have other options to choose from.

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Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if otherwise), this individual is in HIGH SCHOOL. Therefore: This individual has no choice to his or her classes, no choice if he or she wants to attend, and no chance to escape.
I hope that at some point you look back at this thread and extract something of value about reading and meaning. At that time, I hope that you will understand that the fact of school attendance being required by law does not mean that attendance, passing or getting a good grade in an AP course are also required by law. According to your profile, you're in California; the relevant section in the California Education Code state (Cal. Ed. 48200 et seq.) states no such requirement for AP courses. Please produce the evidence that there is a legal requirement in California, or any other state in the United States, which obligates a student to either sign up for, pass, or receive a high grade in any advanced placement class. Non-Contradictor has identified this fact. What I am puzzled at is why you cannot identify this fact. Is it that you really cannot distinguish between "required by law to attend school" and "required by law to attend an AP class and receive an A"? Is your hatred of school so profound that it has destroyed your faculty of reason?

It is your obligation to show that California law requires Kufa to attend an AP class and receive some particular grade, the only condition that might sanction dishonesty. I've pointed you to your state's law, now you do the rest. You may first remove the feathers from the bird, if you prefer.

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I was under the impression that it was possible to be home-schooled if you wanted to. There's also private schools that you can attend. I don't see how you can claim that you have to attend (public) high school, because as far as I know it's just false. I know you have to receive an education of some kind, but there are different ways of doing that legally, right?

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Hello Non-Contradictor and DavidOdden

Thank you very much for enlightening me on the Status of AP classes. I read through the link that you provided, and I was not able to find the relevant section, however, I believe you (I am just VERY angry at my school district for sicking the police on me, and my parents and scaring the hell out of me as a teenager!). I am sure you understand that I have a short fuse when I think someone's rights and freedoms are being infringed.

With that said, what would be my advice to the original poster? In that case, the answer is clear. Either:

1. Drop the class (assuming thats possible)

2. Slack off and get a "C" grade.

or 3. Stop attending (seeing how this is voluntary) and get an F.

Thats the only three moral options possible. Everything else isn't.

Marrten: As for private schools. It is possible to attend a private school, as far as I know, however, they cost a lot of money, and it would be up to the parents to decide if they want their child enrolled in that school. Home schooling is an option, however, that normally requires a parent to stay home and teach the child. There is a third method, called "Independent Studies", which I went through for the last year of my education. To get enrolled in "Independent Studies", one must either be a parent, have special aptitude in a sport where training takes most of the time (e.g. an Olympic quality figure skater), or to be charged with "bringing a gun to class". How do I know this? Because thats how I got my last year of education in. Of course, Independent Studies is run through the school district and is state run.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have a related question about cheating. Sometimes on tests I hear other people talking- either to themselves or with one another- and I inadvertently hear an answer. It's not like I can "unhear" it, and since the tests are usually multiple choice, it's not like I have a chance to demonstrate whether I know the material or not. The thing is, once I hear someone say the answer is D (for example), I recognize that as the correct answer. I don't want to cheat, and I wouldn't try to cheat, but I don't know whether I would have come to the same answer myself. It seems unfair for me to mark the answer right, but it seems equally unfair to not mark it at all when I probably would have come to the same answer myself.

I usually just mark the answer, if I know WHY that answer is right. If I can back it up, I should have been able to come to that answer myself, right?

Any comments appreciated.

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The situation you describe is one where you are making a judgement that the answer you hear is the right one. After all, the person whispering the answer could be wrong. If that's all you hear, I don't see how that is helping you in any way. I guess what's really helping is that you know (perhaps based on your judgement of the person whispering the answer) that the probability that the answer is "D" is now better than a random shot. I would say that your policy -- i.e. marking it if you think you know why it's right -- is the honest approach. You can't penalize yourself by not answering, and you really only have time to make a quick judgement.

I assume that you're not hearing many of the answers anyway, and that it is not making a significant difference on the test. It is were, then you might consider some other action -- outside the actual test itself.

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No, it doesn't make a significant difference. I would have a talk with the person/people if it did. Your right, it's not like I am choosing based on somebody else's logic, but honestly, it does help when I'm stuck between two answers and somebody else gets says they get one or the other. I don't want help, but there's not alot I can do about it.

Thanks for the reply.

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