Rational Sex

[konerko14]

Ayn Rand said sex should be performed with someone who shares your values, and with someone who you love and are attracted to. But is there a limit to how many partners you sleep with, even if they all are with someone you love? And is it wrong to be constantly sleeping around with rational people, instead of having extended monagmous relationships?

It seemed like Dagny would have kept sleeping with more and more guys if she had met them. She actually had sex with every guy she wished she could, and I think she would have kept doing more guys if the opportunity had arisen(assuming hypothetically she never met John Galt, who was her highest ideal man).

[LaszloWalrus]

She had sex with one man AFTER her relationship with the previous man was over already.

Leonard Peikoff has a good lecture where he covers this topic, but I can't remember any details.

http://www.aynrandbookstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=LP51M

[softwareNerd]

It seemed like Dagny would have kept sleeping with more and more guys if she had met them.

This is from memory, because I don't have any reference material available, but when Ayn Rand was questioned about Dagny she indicated that the number of lovers she had would probably be below average for a typical rational woman and that Dagny was never promiscous. I'll find a better reference and post a more accurate quote or paraphrase.

[aequalsa]

This is from memory, because I don't have any reference material available, but when Ayn Rand was questioned about Dagny she indicated that the number of lovers she had would probably be below average for a typical rational woman and that Dagny was never promiscous. I'll find a better reference and post a more accurate quote or paraphrase.

Exactly. Keep in mind that from the age of 16 to 36(20 years!) Dagny had slept with a grand total of 3 men. Wonton and wretched woman of loose morals, that she was.

[~Sophia~]

It is a good practice to familiarize yourself with search option on this forum to check if your question has been already answered - before you start another thread about a topic which has been discussed here many times!

Thank you.

[intellectualammo]

Exactly. Keep in mind that from the age of 16 to 36(20 years!) Dagny had slept with a grand total of 3 men.

Steve opens his Atlas Shrugged and points to chapter 5, and says to aequalsa, she was definately not 16. She was older, at least 17, and that summer was when she was with Francisco.

[konerko14]

Forget the second part to my question then. The main questions I want answered are in the first paragraph.

[Inspector]

Forget the second part to my question then. The main questions I want answered are in the first paragraph.

But that's the worst part of your question, in terms of not doing a search. There are several HUGE threads on this.

[KendallJ]

Forget the second part to my question then. The main questions I want answered are in the first paragraph.

What are your thoughts on the topic konerko14?

[aequalsa]

Steve opens his Atlas Shrugged and points to chapter 5, and says to aequalsa, she was definately not 16. She was older, at least 17, and that summer was when she was with Francisco.

Ah..your right. Still 3 men in 19 years is not exactly enough to qualify her for any depricating titles.

[konerko14]

What are your thoughts on the topic konerko14?

Well Im trying to figure out if having sex with a lot of (rational) people is a form of hedonism. Having sex with a lot of partners who you love doesnt seem to go against what Ayn Rands depiction of what sex should be, but it might fit the definition of hedonism because all it really is is seeking short term joy. But what benefits would a long term relationship with someone give you as opposed to many short term relationships?

[IAmMetaphysical]

Why do they necessarily have to be short term?

[Fëanor]

Why do they necessarily have to be short term?

Yes, taking the time to know a person and falling in love isn't exactly a short process; if you consider everything involved.

[LaszloWalrus]

Well Im trying to figure out if having sex with a lot of (rational) people is a form of hedonism. Having sex with a lot of partners who you love doesnt seem to go against what Ayn Rands depiction of what sex should be, but it might fit the definition of hedonism because all it really is is seeking short term joy. But what benefits would a long term relationship with someone give you as opposed to many short term relationships?

I know from the Peikoff lecture you mentioned that Ayn Rand was against being in a lot of sexual relationships at one time. I'm tempted to quote it, but I don't want to violate copywright.

[konerko14]

Why do they necessarily have to be short term?

Maybe the person likes having sex with new people more than he does with the same partner.

Or, to paint a new scenario, a couple who is love and have had a long term relationship together, but they want to have sex with lots of others as well.

[KendallJ]

Maybe the person likes having sex with new people more than he does with the same partner.

Or, to paint a new scenario, a couple who is love and have had a long term relationship together, but they want to have sex with lots of others as well.

Now wait, before you said with lots of others that you love. This does not sound like that. This sounds like promiscuity.

[konerko14]

Now wait, before you said with lots of others that you love. This does not sound like that. This sounds like promiscuity.

I didnt mean for it to sound like a promiscuity. I was referring to new people the person meets who he falls in love with, not less quality terms than that. Say a man and woman are currently engaged in a long term relationship. But they both have fallen in love with a co-worker of theirs, and they agree to allow each other to venture out in terms of sexual relationships. A few months later the man finds another woman he falls in love with and decides to have sex with her instead of the other one because the feelings are more fresh and intense. Then 7 months later the man and woman each fall in love with another person and they have sex with them. And the pattern continues.. The main couple here decided to allow external sexual relationships because they have been having sex with each other for so long it became too repititive and common of a task. They enjoyed sex more when it was with a new person. Do you think this type of situation would be considered hedonism even though they are only having sex with people they love?

[intellectualammo]

Ah..your right. Still 3 men in 19 years is not exactly enough to qualify her for any depricating titles.

I absolutely agree. That's because Dagny approached sex objectively. She never detached it from her code of values.

However, there obviously are other women/men out there that may have been with 3 people in 19 years, that could qualify for deprecating titles.

[aequalsa]

I absolutely agree. That's because Dagny approached sex objectively. She never detached it from her code of values.

However, there obviously are other women/men out there that may have been with 3 people in 19 years, that could qualify for deprecating titles.

Of course. In fact, there are probably evil virgins running around who deserve to be called a name or two. But I was responding to konerkos first statement where he said that dagny was sleeping with everyone she wished. Everyone she wished was actually very few people over a long period of time and I only meant to point out her very rigid selectivity.

[konerko14]

I was responding to konerkos first statement where he said that dagny was sleeping with everyone she wished. Everyone she wished was actually very few people over a long period of time and I only meant to point out her very rigid selectivity.

Maybe it was just because the opportunities never arose. She had sex with everyone she wanted to, and the type of guys she loved went crazy for her like she was the ideal woman. What if she met more guys that fit her criteria? I think she would have had a lot more partners in that case.

[aequalsa]

Maybe it was just because the opportunities never arose. She had sex with everyone she wanted to, and the type of guys she loved went crazy for her like she was the ideal woman. What if she met more guys that fit her criteria? I think she would have had a lot more partners in that case.

The criteria is the highest value possible. The highest you can find. She only left Hank because someone signiificantly better came along. She wasn't sleeping with everyone who met some minimum criteria. She was pursuing the best men she knew.

[konerko14]

The criteria is the highest value possible. The highest you can find. She only left Hank because someone signiificantly better came along. She wasn't sleeping with everyone who met some minimum criteria. She was pursuing the best men she knew.

Well say she(or someone else) constantly keeps finding a better man than the previous one. Every few months on average a new, better person comes to their attention and they want them instead.

What about Ayn Rand? She was married to Frank O'Connor who supposedly wasnt a great intellectual. She pursued him initially based on his physical appearance. Then when Nathaniel Branden came along, she was having sex with him too. Theres a contradiction to her values in there somewhere. Possibly because Ayn Rand was having sex with Nathaniel Branden, who at the time was closer to Ayn Rands ideal man, and was also with Frank. Why was she with Frank if she wanted the "best" man?

[aequalsa]

Well say she(or someone else) constantly keeps finding a better man than the previous one. Every few months on average a new, better person comes to their attention and they want them instead.

What about Ayn Rand? She was married to Frank O'Connor who supposedly wasnt a great intellectual. She pursued him initially based on his physical appearance. Then when Nathaniel Branden came along, she was having sex with him too. Theres a contradiction to her values in there somewhere. Possibly because Ayn Rand was having sex with Nathaniel Branden, who at the time was closer to Ayn Rands ideal man, and was also with Frank. Why was she with Frank if she wanted the "best" man?

Regarding finding a better every few months; without starting very very low on the "scale", what do you think the chances of being able to do that are? Remember, I said significantly better. If you are focusing on some minor thing that's better and using that for a reason to move on, then the problem is probably with your attention span. It needs to be a clear, better overall, kind of comparison. You can't actually quantify people. Lisa is a 74 and suzi is a 76, therefore I must move on. It is a is clearly better then b in every significant way.

To continue with the Dagny example, she started with Francisco, and he left her. Not a choice she made. Then a decade later she found Hank who was a very productive man with some psychological inadequacies. The she found Galt. He was not a very productive man with a few less psychological issues. He was an incredibly productive man with very few, if any psychological problems. The jump was huge. Where could she go after that? Maybe a guy who is incredibly productive, saves the world, has no psychological problems, cooks an excellet creme brule, colonizes, the moon and then invents time travel, all without messing up his very great hair?

And, incidentally, finding someone better is not the only reason to leave someone. You should always be asking yourself if the persons influence on your life is good or bad overall.

I can't answer for Ayn Rand, but from my distant and very outside point of view, I think what she did was wrong, and do not look to her life as an example of how best to handle ones love life. Her writings are a good deal more helpful.

[konerko14]

Regarding finding a better every few months; without starting very very low on the "scale", what do you think the chances of being able to do that are? Remember, I said significantly better. If you are focusing on some minor thing that's better and using that for a reason to move on, then the problem is probably with your attention span. It needs to be a clear, better overall, kind of comparison. You can't actually quantify people. Lisa is a 74 and suzi is a 76, therefore I must move on. It is a is clearly better then b in every significant way.

But the man in my example is one who enjoys a new relationship not necessarily because its a significantly better person, but because its of equal or better quality AND mostly because its a new person. It may not be a short attention span either, since I think its well known that in the beginning of a relationship the feelings are usually the most intense. So his plan would be to not settle with "good" feelings, but instead with that "extraordinary" feeling from starting a new relationship(say every year or so, not every few months).

To continue with the Dagny example, she started with Francisco, and he left her. Not a choice she made. Then a decade later she found Hank who was a very productive man with some psychological inadequacies. The she found Galt. He was not a very productive man with a few less psychological issues. He was an incredibly productive man with very few, if any psychological problems. The jump was huge. Where could she go after that? Maybe a guy who is incredibly productive, saves the world, has no psychological problems, cooks an excellet creme brule, colonizes, the moon and then invents time travel, all without messing up his very great hair?

You son of a bitch, I still havent read the ending of AS. I should have said that earlier. About your comment though, what would Dagny do if John Galt died fairly soon? If she only chooses to have relationships with a better man than previously, than that would mean she cant have anymore guys the rest of her life. I personally think she would settle for Francisco or Rearden or someone like that if Galt dumped her or he died.

[aequalsa]

But the man in my example is one who enjoys a new relationship not necessarily because its a significantly better person, but because its of equal or better quality AND mostly because its a new person. It may not be a short attention span either, since I think its well known that in the beginning of a relationship the feelings are usually the most intense. So his plan would be to not settle with "good" feelings, but instead with that "extraordinary" feeling from starting a new relationship(say every year or so, not every few months).

The primary problem that I would expect, for the man in this scenario, is that he would be making decisions primarily by emotion. The high expereienced is primarily related to novelty and anticipation. So say he find a very excellent woman. Knows her for a year and is rationally convinced of her extraordinary charactor. Her year is almost over and he finds himself responding to another girl. She has a nice rack, is very fun to be with, etc. Whatever gets him going. He decides that she is the equal of the first girl in every way. The problem is, he actually knows very little about the new gal, and has filled in all of the gaps in his knowledge with best case scenario details. He doesn't have an accurate picture. So he discards the first one, which he knows to be excellent, for one which he imagines to be "perfect" during the throws of his emotional bliss. In a world where most people were great dagnys and galts the odds for his emotional decision would be in his favor. In the world that I am familiar with, dagnys are hard to come by.

You son of a bitch, I still havent read the ending of AS. I should have said that earlier. About your comment though, what would Dagny do if John Galt died fairly soon? If she only chooses to have relationships with a better man than previously, than that would mean she cant have anymore guys the rest of her life. I personally think she would settle for Francisco or Rearden or someone like that if Galt dumped her or he died.

Sorry. I didnt realize. If galt died or dumped her for super-dagny, then she would still try to find the best that she could. You are not obliged to be with the best in existence...just the best you can find and get. If you are stuck on a desert island with one women...I'm gonna guess that she'll be your "dagny" within about 3 months.