Stress

[aleph_0]

It wouldn't surprise me if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but I was wondering what people on this forum think about the fact that stress causes physical illness, yet Rand said that she enjoyed the feeling of stress. A strict work-ethic and the greatest excercise of one's productive power are virtues in Objectivists ethics--does this mean that being stressed is a mark of virtue? And does this mean that death by heart-attack is also a mark of virtue?

[intellectualammo]

yet Rand said that she enjoyed the feeling of stress.

Hi, Al. Where did she say that? I'm having trouble finding it.

[aleph_0]

I should correct that. I am not certain that Rand explicitly expressed that she enjoyed the feeling of stress, but Dagny expressed it, implying it was a mark of her virtue. I forget the particular passage. Would you deny that feeling stress is a mark of virtue?

[KendallJ]

I think it is a bit of an oversimplification that stress causes illness.

Heavy stress, on a continuous basis, causes illness, and also lower than average performance.

Light stress or heavier stress, but managed in intervals, can actually be a performance enahncer.

So I don't think that Rand (or Dagny's) statement is at odds with the science.

[DarkWaters]

does this mean that being stressed is a mark of virtue? And does this mean that death by heart-attack is also a mark of virtue?

Unconditional stress would certainly not be an automatic virtue as this would largely be contingent on what you are stressed over. Are you stressed from physical exhaustion? Are you stressed from fear of not being accepted within a particular group? Are you stressed over the outcome of a competitive sporting event? Are you stressed over a relationship?

Suffering death by a heart-attack would be the antithesis of a virtue, as virtues are supposed to advance the life of man. Someone who drives themselves so inexorably that their body cannot physically handle the ordeal that they subject themselves to is dettached from reality in this respect. Individuals should be working so that they can ultimately enjoy and advance their life. The work itself is not an end in itself.

[intellectualammo]

Would you deny that feeling stress is a mark of virtue?

Is that not a loaded question? I don't answer them, for fear they will explode in my face...

[softwareNerd]

I don't remember the reference, so this post is in general terms (if someone can search the Objectivism CD for a ref., please post it here).

One sees bumper stickers saying: "If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention". One might interpret that to mean that there's a lot of injustice etc. in the world, enough to make one angry. It's a good thing to be "paying attention" like that. However, it does not follow that anger is a sign of virtue. It could be, in that limited sense; on the other hand, if a typical person let's anger take over his life, that would be irrational.

Similarly, a long-distance runner may say: "When I ache and when my lungs are bursting, that's when I know I'm pushing myself the way I want to". Yet, fatigue -- as such -- need not be a sign of virtue.

So, with stress.

[BrassDragon]

...the fact that stress causes physical illness, yet Rand said that she enjoyed the feeling of stress...

Stress comes from challenging yourself. If you're challenging yourself to, say, complete a novel or design a new machine - i.e. to reach your full potential of productivity - you're fulfilling an Objectivist virtue and you're likely to feel exhilirated. This is what Rand was talking about.

Stress can also cause mental anguish, which in turn can cause physical illness. If you girlfriend cheats on you, you can feel it in your chest (I can). If you feel guilty, you can feel it in your shoulders. This has been scientifically documented. You might experience some mental anguish writing a novel, but it'll be outweighed by the positive feelings of fulfilling your virtues. You're likely to experience a great deal of mental anguish if you've neglected to study in a course in college and you have an exam the next day you're likely to fail. This is when mental anguish becomes a problem.

Stress is also frequently associated with overtaxation of your body. If you've got a big exam coming up, on top of having some mental anguish, you're probably going to go with less sleep and less food, in order to study more. This will also cause physical illness - but not directly because of the stress.

[intellectualammo]

I don't remember the reference, so this post is in general terms (if someone can search the Objectivism CD for a ref., please post it here).

I've already searched the CD-Rom for "stress" and "stressed". Lots of entries, that's for sure, but nothing about "enjoying the feeling of it", or Dagny expressing it, implying that it was a "mark of virtue", or Rand explicitly saying it. That's why I asked for his source.

As an aside, it's interesting to try the search word "tired"...esp. in reference to Rearden.

Edited December 14, 2006 by intellectualammo

[BrassDragon]

As an aside, it's interesting to try the search word "tired"...esp. in reference to Rearden.

Why? (I don't have the CD)

[intellectualammo]

Someone who drives themselves so inexorably that their body cannot physically handle the ordeal that they subject themselves to is dettached from reality in this respect.

Yeah, detached from the ultimate standard of value, which is life, in this respect.

One must know oneself...their capacities, capabilities, in this respect.

"I know myself," he cried, "but that is all." (Fitzgerald, "This Side of Paradise")

[intellectualammo]

Why? (I don't have the CD)

Why? Because of such quotes as these, which are all taken from Chapter Two of AS in reference to Hank:

"—the acts of self-racking when he discarded a hope or a sample, not permitting himself to know that he was tired, not giving himself time to feel, driving himself through the wringing torture of: 'not good enough … still not good enough …' and going on with no motor save the conviction that it could be done—"

"He stood, cursing himself, because he had made up his mind that he would not be tired. After a while, he went back to his task; he decided that pain was not a valid reason for stopping."

"He was tired. It was as if he had run a race against his own body, and all the exhaustion of years, which he had refused to acknowledge, had caught him at once and flattened him against the desk top."

Edited December 14, 2006 by intellectualammo

[BrassDragon]

Those quotes (and her writings in general) lead me to believe that Rand did consider the point where mental anguish and physical taxation outweigh the values of productivity and challenging oneself to be relatively heavy on the side of anguish and taxation. I'd tend to agree with her.

If you look at the context of those passages, it actually says Rearden was at the point where picking up his head from his desk was the most he could do - but he still didn't push himself to the point of having a heart attack. And I think this is a realistic scenario.

[intellectualammo]

but he still didn't push himself to the point of having a heart attack. And I think this is a realistic scenario.

Yes, I agree. Here's an interesting quote from Part III Chapter 1 from AS, in reference to Dagny, highlighting her knowing herself, knowing when to say when:

"She followed him down to the car, slowly, feeling suddenly too exhausted to move. She fell back against the seat, closing her eyes, barely hearing the sound of the starter. The accumulated strain and shock of her sleepless hours hit her at once, breaking through the barrier of the tension her nerves had held to delay it. She lay still, unable to think, to react or to struggle, drained of all emotions but one.

She did not speak. She did not open her eyes until the car stopped in front of his house.

'You'd better rest,' he said, 'and go to sleep right now, if you want to attend Mulligan's dinner tonight.'

She nodded obediently. She staggered to the house, avoiding his help. She made an effort to tell him, 'I'll be all right,' then to escape to the safety of her room and last long enough to close the door."

Edited December 14, 2006 by intellectualammo

[BrassDragon]

Here's an interesting quote from Part III Chapter 1 from AS, in reference to Dagny, highlighting her knowing herself, knowing when to say when:

What is important here is that the characters accept that sleep is imporant and necessary, and aren't ignoring/denying reality on that point. I don't think Rand is advocating tiring oneself out to the point where one is "unable to think," as Dagny did in this case, except in extreme situations (no doubt this was one).

[Time_Maker]

There are two different ways I can respond to this thread, and I am going to respond to both.

In regards to stress: No stress is bad (trust me, I experienced it), a little bit of stress is good, and a lot of stress is bad. Think of stress as like a string on a piano. If there is no tension on the string, then the hammer wouldn't hit. If the string is at the right tension, it makes a sound. The more tension the string has from that point on, the worse the sound will get. If too much tension is put on the string, it will snap.

In regards to quoting Ayn Rand from her novels, as I notice a lot of, I noticed she never made any comments about having to go, shall we say, to the bathroom. Therefore, is going to the bathroom evil and wrong?

[aequalsa]

A distinction which I haven't seen stated on this thread, yet, is differentiating the stressors themselves from being stressed. Chosen responsibilities and challenges, as well as the unchosen ones which inevitably arise, can be viewed in two different ways. They can be "bad things that happen to you, because bad things always do" or they can be the expected cost of achievement, the overcoming of which make the pride of the accomplishment, all the sweeter. Not having stressors would mean not being challenged. Not having stress would mean knowing how to deal with the stressors in a more constructive way. The pain can only go so deep, after all.

[BrassDragon]

In regards to quoting Ayn Rand from her novels, as I notice a lot of, I noticed she never made any comments about having to go, shall we say, to the bathroom.

But she did often bring up the topic of stress, so what's your point? (rhetorical question)

Therefore, is going to the bathroom evil and wrong?

No.

[aleph_0]

Those quotes (and her writings in general) lead me to believe that Rand did consider the point where mental anguish and physical taxation outweigh the values of productivity and challenging oneself to be relatively heavy on the side of anguish and taxation. I'd tend to agree with her.

If you look at the context of those passages, it actually says Rearden was at the point where picking up his head from his desk was the most he could do - but he still didn't push himself to the point of having a heart attack. And I think this is a realistic scenario.

I think anybody who lived such a lifestyle would die of an early heartattack. If there's a doctor who can back me up, that'd be nice, but if that isn't the kind of stress that causes physical harm I have a hard time imagining the incredibly narrow category of stress that causes so many ills in so many people.

Personally, I just don't care that it may put me in an early grave. I'd rather get many things done in a shorter life-span than live like Nietzsche's sage:

A sage was praised to Zarathustra, as one who could speak well about sleep and virtue: greatly was he honored and rewarded for it, and all the youths sat before his chair. To him went Zarathustra, and sat among the youths before his chair. And thus spoke the wise man:

Respect and modesty in presence of sleep! That is the first thing! And to avoid all who sleep badly and keep awake at night!

...

No small art is it to sleep: for its sake must one stay awake all day.

Ten times a day must you overcome yourself: that causes wholesome weariness, and is opium for the soul.

Ten times must you reconcile again with yourself; for overcoming is bitterness, and badly sleep the unreconciled.

...

Few people know it, but one must have all the virtues in order to sleep well...

Peace with God and your neighbor: so desires good sleep. And peace also with your neighbor's devil! Otherwise he will haunt you in the night.

Honor to the government, and obedience, and also to the crooked government! So desires good sleep. How can I help it, if power likes to walk on crooked legs?

...

When Zarathustra heard the wise man thus speak, he laughed in his heart: for a light had dawned upon him. And thus he spoke to his heart:

This sage with his forty thoughts is a fool: but I believe he knows well how to sleep.

Happy is he who even lives near this wise man! Such sleep is contagious- contagious even through a thick wall.

A magic resides even in his academic chair. And it is not in vain that the youths sit before this preacher of virtue.

His wisdom is to keep awake in order to sleep well. And verily, if life had no sense, and had I to choose nonsense, this would be the most sensible nonsense for me also.

Now I know well what people once sought above all else when they sought teachers of virtue. Good sleep they sought, and opiate virtues to promote it!

To all those belauded sages of the academic chairs, wisdom was sleep without dreams: they knew no better meaning of life.

Even now, to be sure, there are some like this preacher of virtue, and not all are so honest: but their time is past. And not much longer do they stand: soon they will lie.

Blessed are those sleepy ones: for they shall soon drop off.-

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

[mweiss]

It wouldn't surprise me if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but I was wondering what people on this forum think about the fact that stress causes physical illness, yet Rand said that she enjoyed the feeling of stress. A strict work-ethic and the greatest excercise of one's productive power are virtues in Objectivists ethics--does this mean that being stressed is a mark of virtue? And does this mean that death by heart-attack is also a mark of virtue?

I'll say this much: I know that a situation of hopelessness, such as being hounded by the tax man for much of your life, can bring on cancer. Many people who have cancer, as it turns out, have unresolvable problems--they are trapped and feel desparately unhappy. The prolonged sense of impending doom depresses the mind and the immune system and cancer takes over from there. I have personal experience with this.

[DavidV]

It's a common myth than stress can cause cancer, but numerous studies have shown no solid evidence for this. Stress does affect the immune system, which may impair treatment and recovery from any illness.