Betsy Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 That being said, there are outrageously beautiful, pschologically healthy, morally sound, sports loving women somewhere out there in the universe. And all you need is ONE. I, however, will not hold my breath. But what WILL you do? If you want that wonderful but hard to find woman, I suggest searching for her, pursuing her, and having something to offer her when you meet her. It isn't easy, but it IS worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowzer Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 And don't just limit your search to Objectivist women. I think a person's sense of life is their most important characteristic (it tells you more about them than their consciously professed philosophy): A sense of life is a pre-conceptual equivalent of metaphysics, an emotional, subconsciously integrated appraisal of man and of existence. It sets the nature of a man's emotional responses and the essence of his character. There are Objectivist women with perhaps something to be desired in this area and by the same token there are non-Objectivist women who have an impeccable sense of life. I would prefer the woman with a better sense of life regardless of whether she held the same ideas as me or not. Indeed, my wife is not an Objectivist but she has a wonderful sense of life . We are now reading Atlas Shrugged together (out loud) and she and I both are loving every minute. We're newlyweds but I know I was right to marry her based on her sense of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 As Bowzer put it, It's not just about dating "Objectivist" gals. Most of here have an explicit knowledge of the metaphysics, epistemology, ethics etc. of Objectivism. There are many people in the world who live most parts of their life on the same principles but who just haven't identified them yet. Thats what you can look for, it doesn't have to be girls who have read or know about Ayn Rand. It's just on the way they conduct themselves and the way in which they act, you can discern a lot from that. Good luck to you Dinesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elle Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 I said that I would "almost" ascribe mathematical certainty to that proposition. My apologies Argive you did say "almost". I did not intend to take what you said out of context, just overlooked the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 And don't just limit your search to Objectivist women. I think a person's sense of life is their most important characteristic (it tells you more about them than their consciously professed philosophy) Exactly. I was considering to write something to that effect in the place of "Objectivist gal," but succinctness was a priority and I figure that, when I introduce her to Objectivism, she will become an Objectivist anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 They are there, if you go to the right places -- like Objectivist Conferences. You can say that again. There were several attractive young women at last year's conference, who were younger than those whose photos Betsy posted (closer to my age) and still single. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 We are now reading Atlas Shrugged together (out loud) and she and I both are loving every minute. Awesome. An ex-girlfriend and I read Anthem, The Fountainhead, and We The Living together and had a blast. We didn't get around to Atlas Shrugged before our relationship ended, but she will probably read it on her own now, and we both learned a lot from our time together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Just because a man wants to "sow his wild oats"... I must say, I have no such desire. I don't understand Betsy's analogy that sex is like food for a man and like art for a woman. My own approach to it is much closer to art, and I don't think that makes me feminine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 I must say, I have no such desire. I don't understand Betsy's analogy that sex is like food for a man and like art for a woman. My own approach to it is much closer to art, and I don't think that makes me feminine! I'm not saying all men have a need to "sow their oats," but some definitely do. I don't think there are just one or two types of sexual appetites. Preferred sexual practices are as varied as people are. If someone wants non-commital sex, good for them. If another person requires a higher level of intimacy to enjoy sex, good for them as well. There's no reason any of us should be giving a second thought to the way our neighbors choose to interact sexually. My sex life is my deal, theirs is theirs. Who really cares what somebody else is doing in the bedroom, or how often, or with whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 There's no reason any of us should be giving a second thought to the way our neighbors choose to interact sexually. My sex life is my deal, theirs is theirs. Who really cares what somebody else is doing in the bedroom, or how often, or with whom? I agree with your general sentiment here, though I can think of lots of exceptions. But I don't want to get into the minutiae, so I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 I agree with your general sentiment here, though I can think of lots of exceptions. But I don't want to get into the minutiae, so I'll leave it at that. It was a generalized statement, and I should have noted that there are, of course, exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPW Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 It was a generalized statement, and I should have noted that there are, of course, exceptions. There are always exceptions, except when there aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwakeAndFree Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 It's a simple matter of statistics: let's assume that only 10% of the population is pretty, and only 10% is smart... By that logic, assuming no connection between beauty and brains, only 1% of the population will be both pretty and smart. Assuming your looking for an Objectivist girl, the odds drop even lower. That being said - there are ways to locate these girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 It's a simple matter of statistics: let's assume that only 10% of the population is pretty, and only 10% is smart... By that logic, assuming no connection between beauty and brains, only 1% of the population will be both pretty and smart. Assuming your looking for an Objectivist girl, the odds drop even lower. That being said - there are ways to locate these girls. 1% being both pretty and smart sounds about right to me. Finding an Objectivist girl is unimportant to me (although it would be a nice bonus), but the odds do drop pretty low once you factor in the fact that the pretty/smart combo is highly sought after, so most of them are already taken. What's a handsome/smart guy to do? Fill me in on your search methods, Eran. I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 It's a simple matter of statistics: let's assume that only 10% of the population is pretty, and only 10% is smart... By that logic, assuming no connection between beauty and brains, only 1% of the population will be both pretty and smart. Fortunately, there IS a connection. A smart woman knows, or can figure out how to emphasize her physical ASSets and improve her appearance. She can stay fit, dress well, get a nose job or liposuction or implants, carry herself proudly and gracefully, and whatever else she needs to do to get and keep the interest of a man. Good looks are a CHOICE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurosophist Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 It's a simple matter of statistics: let's assume that only 10% of the population is pretty, and only 10% is smart... By that logic, assuming no connection between beauty and brains, only 1% of the population will be both pretty and smart. Fallacy, if there is no connection, an impossibility, then it would be impossible to predict what percent of the people would share both attributes, except that the maximum amount that could share both would be 10%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Rexton Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 It's a simple matter of statistics: let's assume that only 10% of the population is pretty, and only 10% is smart... By that logic, assuming no connection between beauty and brains, only 1% of the population will be both pretty and smart. In my experience, the percentage of people being both good-looking and smart is actually closer to 0.1% than 1%. But then again, my standards for beauty and intelligence are pretty high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurosophist Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Simple matter of how high you set your standards, if smart is synonymous with simply above average intelligence then it would include 50% of the population. Beauty on the other hand, "is in the eye of the beholder", and while as Betsy noted, it is within most individuals means to attain a socially advantageous appearance, is it worth it? Why is it necessary to submit your efforts to finding something that the masses or worse the media designs arbitrarily? Don't sacrifice yourself to the whims of society, culture and grow reason in yourself, don't demand inane requirements from biology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argive99 Posted May 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Simple matter of how high you set your standards, if smart is synonymous with simply above average intelligence then it would include 50% of the population. Beauty on the other hand, "is in the eye of the beholder", and while as Betsy noted, it is within most individuals means to attain a socially advantageous appearance, is it worth it? Why is it necessary to submit your efforts to finding something that the masses or worse the media designs arbitrarily? Don't sacrifice yourself to the whims of society, culture and grow reason in yourself, don't demand inane requirements from biology. Actually I would argue that beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. There are objective requirements for beauty; symmetry of features, healthy appearance, youthful soft skin. There is a book called "The Survival of the Prettiest" by Nancy Etcoff that shows that beauty is not some social construct as the feminists claim but that there are biological features for men and women that have been considered beautiful for all cultures and at all times (the female hip to waist ratio for example). Its an excellent book with plenty of science. (It incidently shows that most of what women do to their appearance is for the sole purpose of increasing their attraction to men: high heels to highlight their legs, breast implants and pushup bras to highlight their breasts which are a major sexual attractor, lipstick to highlight their lips and possibly even to give the suggestion of the vagina, makeup to soften their facial skin, eye liner and eye lashes to draw attention to their eyes, skirts and low-cut blowses to highlight their figures, perfume as sort of manmade pheromones, etc, etc., its pretty remarkable actually.) Now I fully acknowledge that there are many different types of beauty. But none of them are arbitrary. As for breast implants and liposuction, etc; these are important things and can greatly enhance female beauty. Many women use them for valid reasons but many also use them in the hopes of filling other voids in their psyches; as a sort of psuedo self-esteem. But even when they are employed by women with healthy self-esteem, there is only so much they can do. Genetics counts for alot. Which brings us back to finding a beautiful, statuesque woman who operates high on the conceptual level and has a developed sense of honor, self-esteem and loyalty. 1%? I wish. That would be one in a hundred which is not that bad. Sadly, I think its much less and as I said once you start placing such a high emphasis on looks you are bound to run into very undeveloped and superficial people. I guess you can just look for a beautiful woman with a great sense of life but that's rare too. And I dare anyone to find such a beauty who doesn't live for reality tv and the latest episode of 'Friends'. I know. I'm way too bitter. Well even Dominique grew up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurosophist Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder does not mean that there is no reason for the common social definition of beauty, but rather that one can define what one believes to be beauty, with one's own reasons. For instance, there is very little biological evidence to suggest that a male should prefer one race to another and yet one can simply like the look of a particularly facial type, etc. I have heard of studies involving the Waist to Hip ratio as an actual correlating factor in fertility. All the other biological factors listed can probably also linked to some aspect of evolutionary fitness, showing health or the greater possibilty of passing on one's genes. The reality of the situation, however, is that human beings are not merely animals, but also reasoning beings, a rational person doesn't look for an individual simply because they will bear them many viable children anymore, as is the case with other animals who do not reason. Therefore, it is in most cases silly to cling to these biological factors, espcially when the processes people undergo to make themselves appear to possess them are part of a celebrity worshipping superficial culture, as you said. With that said, If you could find someone who you could adore as an intelligent, rational being it would be in your best interest to pick them over any "knockout", save cases where your reflex was to vomit uncontrollably upon seeing their hideous face, etc. Your mind is what makes you human, your sex drive merely makes you living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Lately however, to be honest, I have been involved in nothing but superficial, sexual "flings" with women of similar mindsets. I know I'm going to get lambasted for this, but I am having a ball. I had a similar discussion with a good friend of mine the other day. She believes men and women approach sexual promiscuity differently. In general it's okay for men to be sexually promiscuous and practically be congratulated by society, whereas women seek romance and commitment. Perhaps there is a tendency in regard to what my friend was saying, but does that mean it is ethical? My point to her during our conversation was that we all have free will and the ability to decide whether or not a sexual encounter with someone else is what we want. If someone is sexually active with others who understand that they are agreeing to have sex with someone for the sake of having sex, mutually consenting partners who understand all of the possible consequences - good and/or bad - in my opinion the act is not un-ethical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Good looks are a CHOICE. I agree with you 100%, Betsy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argive99 Posted May 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2004   With that said, If you could find someone who you could adore as an intelligent, rational being it would be in your best interest to pick them over any "knockout", save cases where your reflex was to vomit uncontrollably upon seeing their hideous face, etc. Your mind is what makes you human, your sex drive merely makes you living. I don't disagree with anything you really said although I wouldn't say that women pursue cosmetic enhancements b/c celebrites do generaly even though I'm sure some women do. Large round breasts, soft full lips, toned accentuated calves are objectively more appealing, other things being equal. That was my point. Also, intelligence and rationality can make a person more attractive by showcasing their characters. However, as has been said, these attributes are not common in the present culture (IMO). And as for different races being beautiful. Absolutely. I am a white male but I go absolutely batshit over good looking Asian women. In fact, I am thinking of living in Japan for a couple of years primarily for work but also because I have been told that American men are reverred by a significant subset of women there and that women in general are nice, decent and have more developed characters. Having lived in Brazil, I have seen the dispositions of foreign women compared to Americans. American women are the meanest, cruelest, most spoiled and superficial in the world. (and this may have to do with the celebrity worship you identify) Now I am fully aware that Objectivist women being women of self made soul should be different but I am not entirely convinced that any such women exist. (Allthough I've been told they do.) Etcoff has a study in the book showing Brazilians being asked who was prettier; Brazillians or Asians. They of course chose Brazillians. But when brazillians were asked to choose who they thought were the prettiest Asians, they chose the same Asians that the Asians themselves chose. Beauty is really not a social construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurosophist Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 "Large round breasts, soft full lips, toned accentuated calves are objectively more appealing" Why? Either you are saying that the qualities inherent in these things are beauty themselves, such as symmetry, which is somewhat debatable, or you are citing your own biological idea of an ideal woman. Either way, I dont' see how you can tell me that I must find these things more appealing, if A) I find some other quality more important than say symmetry, and my biology is different than yours and thus I have different capacities for, for instance, the level of masculinity or feminity I find appealing in a face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondigitalia Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 I am not entirely convinced that any such women exist. Perhaps this is the reason you aren't finding them. I am unwilling to accept the idea that out of the thousands and thousand of women I will come across in my lifetime, at least one of them won't have that *special mix* of qualities that makes her perfect [for me] in every way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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