How does one change his values?

[BaseballGenius]

How does one change his values?

For example, I agree that sex should only be performed with people who share my values and someone I love. This makes vivid sense to me, because I dont think one should detach his sexual relationships with his entire rational philosophy. And yet my mind is having trouble transferring this thought process to the desires being produced. I still have strong attractions and desires to sleep with far less than "good" people. Having certain strong desires can really wreak havoc on the mind if they are not satisfied or acted upon, or changed.

Is this a case of not being fully convinced of what I think I agree with? I remember a little while ago when I was new to Objectivism, and the first value of mine that I wanted to gain was to consistently do productive work. Now, I realize that even though I agreed with the idea that productive work is good, I never had much of a desire to actually work hard. However, looking back at my 7 months with Objectivism, I have constantly gotten better at incorporating this value into my life. And it wasnt until now, when I started doing productive work more regularly at my job, that I feel like theres no other way to go through tasks without being productive and doing it well. My point with this example is to show that it took until I physically went through the motions of performing productive work on a consistent basis that I truly accepted it as one of my values.

Does anyone else have the same problem of not being able to convert his conscious values to his subconscious ones, and thus not being able to successfully incorporate the specific value into his life?

[Inspector]

Does anyone else have the same problem of not being able to convert his conscious values to his subconscious ones, and thus not being able to successfully incorporate the specific value into his life?

Lots of folks. As you say, just telling yourself something, or even believing it consciously, isn't often enough.

Just the other day, I stayed up waaay too late playing video games. "Just one more turn," I told myself.

I have a friend who can't stay away from flirtatious girls who are already engaged or otherwise romantically unavailable. He knows that they are no good for him (and says as much), but yet he keeps torturing himself.

[softwareNerd]

... looking back at my 7 months with Objectivism, I have constantly gotten better at incorporating this value into my life. And it wasn't until now, when I started doing productive work more regularly at my job, that I feel like there's no other way to go through tasks without being productive and doing it well. My point with this example is to show that it took until I physically went through the motions of performing productive work on a consistent basis that I truly accepted it as one of my values.

Sounds like you're doing well, BaseballGenius. Do you enjoy these newly incorporated values? If so, then my guess is that the doing will give you the motivation for more doing. Habits are hard to break. So, if one has a habit of slacking off, perhaps based on some unspoken faulty conclusion that work is not fun, things won't change with a simple decision. It's natural that it would take some actual productive work (i.e. some actual experience) to convince one of one's new decision.

As for the sexual values thing, I'm not sure how to respond to that without opening another can of worms... look at the many threads in here. I'll say that while Objectivism is not hedonism, neither is it stoicism.

[Mimpy]

As for the sexual values thing, I'm not sure how to respond to that without opening another can of worms... look at the many threads in here. I'll say that while Objectivism is not hedonism, neither is it stoicism.

Could you still elaborate a little on that statement, please? I'd really like to understand what you mean. By that statement alone, I think you're saying that though one should not be so picky in life that he never finds someone good enough to seek physical pleasure with, he shouldn't try to get just anyone in bed, either. I don't understand where that line is drawn, however....so if you could elaborate, that'd be great.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Mimpy

[softwareNerd]

Could you still elaborate a little on that statement, please? I'd really like to understand what you mean. By that statement alone, I think you're saying that though one should not be so picky in life that he never finds someone good enough to seek physical pleasure with, he shouldn't try to get just anyone in bed, either. I don't understand where that line is drawn, however....so if you could elaborate, that'd be great.

The topic of the "role of sex" tends to get nasty fast (witness the recent thread, and many others in the history of the forum). So, I'm a bit wary of posting something that's less than complete and then not continuing the discussion to its logical point.

So my caveat is that this response is incomplete and informal...

Most of these questions are asked in a very abstract "theoretical" way. For instance, BaseballGenius is asking about whether it's right to want to sleep with beautiful women who are beautiful and nothing more. Is this is a real problem confronting him? Are gorgeous looking bimbos knocking down his door asking to be slept with? If this isn't happening, then what is the real question confronting him in real life? Could it be that he likes looking at beautiful women? Is he thinking that because it is unfulfilling to jump into bed with a beautiful bimbo therefore he should feel guilty for thinking she's beautiful? It's too easy to start with the mind-body dichotomy from one direction, thinking "sex is all about physical stuff". Then, one learns Objectivism and concludes that sex is a manifestation of one's highest values, etc. One might then just as easily slip into thinking "sex is not about physical pleasure". This would be accepting the mind-body dichotomy is another way. All one is doing is switching teams, one is switching from the "body" team to the "mind" team. Not good.

[LutherSetzer]

Read The Ten Natural Laws of Successful Time and Life Management by Hyrum Smith. He talks about clearly identifying and articulating governing values in writing and reviewing them daily as a form of personal conditioning. I do this via my Web site at http://AttitudeAdjustment.tripod.com with the distinction that governing values (emotions) must remain subservient to the cardinal values of reason, purpose and self-esteem. I am writing my own book on this at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VisionDrivenLife/ if you want to join.

[Inspector]

So my caveat is that this response is incomplete and informal...

It's a good answer that you give, though!

[BaseballGenius]

Lots of folks. As you say, just telling yourself something, or even believing it consciously, isn't often enough.

What is enough? How does one change his desires? (Thats what I should have named this thread, or 'How Does One Intergrate His Values and Desires.')

Nathaniel Branden, in "Psychology of Pleasure", said that to change one's desires, one needs to change his values. But I have emotionally intense desires that contradict with my values, and very strong desires are hard to ignore. What I want to know is WHAT CAUSES A DESIRE TO FORM?

Edited January 2, 2007 by BaseballGenius

[BaseballGenius]

Sounds like you're doing well, BaseballGenius. Do you enjoy these newly incorporated values?

I love productive work now, and the feeling of pride that is formed from it. Without productive work, one really cant be happy.

So, if one has a habit of slacking off, perhaps based on some unspoken faulty conclusion that work is not fun, things won't change with a simple decision. It's natural that it would take some actual productive work (i.e. some actual experience) to convince one of one's new decision.

Does this mean that one has to actually see the consequences of certain behavior before he fully accepts it as the truth?

Edited January 2, 2007 by BaseballGenius

[BaseballGenius]

BaseballGenius is asking about whether it's right to want to sleep with beautiful women who are beautiful and nothing more. Is this is a real problem confronting him? Are gorgeous looking bimbos knocking down his door asking to be slept with? If this isn't happening, then what is the real question confronting him in real life?

My real concern is that I am uncertain that I will choose to act according to my values if an opportunity arises to sleep with a girl that only satisfies my physical pleasures. "Its just a desire," some say. But emotionally intense desires are what strongly influence decisions, even if one knows the action is bad. Not acting on a powerful desire affects my consciousness negatively, and the desire continues to grow. So what one needs to do is not repress his desires, but figure out how to change them. This is what I dont know how to do.

Edited January 2, 2007 by BaseballGenius

[entripon]

In my opinion (and this is only my opinion), a lot of people spend way too much time worrying about what is and is not "immoral" and beating themselves up over the fact that their emotions don't yet correspond to their explicit philosophy. This is especially true in the realm of actions which bring about pleasure for the wrong reasons, i.e. actions which are not overtly self-destructive but which, to use Ayn Rand's term, a "rational man" would have no desire for. If, for example, you derive pleasure from going to strip clubs or sleeping with physically beautiful but brainless women (or, to branch out into other areas, doing small amounts of "safe" recreational drugs, or enjoying art with anti-Objectivist themes), I don't think you should deprive yourself of that pleasure. Pleasure as such is extremely valuable for motivation and keeping up one's sense of a benevolent universe, so don't force yourself to go without the things that bring you enjoyment just because they are "irrational" by Ayn Rand's standards. If you're anything like me, you'll find that as you continue to study Objectivism and internalize it in your own life, the women, movies, art, etc. you found so attractive before will gradually lose their appeal, and in their place you will begin to desire things more in line with the characters in Rand's novels. It just takes time for your emotions to catch up to your conscious convictions, and in the meantime, I'd say go ahead and pursue/date/sleep with the women you are attracted to now. You'll be surprised how quickly that desire will fade.

Edited January 2, 2007 by entripon

[Inspector]

entripon,

While I don't agree that it's 100% a good idea to just dive into activities like drugs and sex with strangers/bimbos, I think you have the right idea there. It's not about beating yourself up. It's about the fact that, once you have your head right, you won't even be interested in those things.

I mean, don't go out and get high, but maybe hang around your friends who do get high and just "take it in." You'd be surprised how, armed with the right ideas, your reaction to watching them is different. But exposure, with your eyes philosophically open, to some things is an important part of internalizing that they are bad. You have to let yourself see the ugly side of those things which, as you put it, "bring about pleasure for the wrong reasons."

But some people just need to see things for themselves, so maybe you're right. My friend that I mentioned above, I think he's just going to have to get burned a few more times by these women before he learns.

The only problem with this is that, with some people I know, this involves things like unwise spending. They may end up bankrupt or homeless. So exposure and "hitting rock bottom" may not be the best of ideas.

[BaseballGenius]

I agree that one can be lenient on acting on certain desires. What about more serious desires that may be very self-destructive? One shouldnt act on those desires, but the desire may constantly grow stronger and get very hard to ignore. How does one cure himself from these types of desires?

[KendallJ]

I agree that one can be lenient on acting on certain desires. What about more serious desires that may be very self-destructive? One shouldnt act on those desires, but the desire may constantly grow stronger and get very hard to ignore. How does one cure himself from these types of desires?

The same way one cures oneself of irrational desires. I think folks have given you a taste of what your options might be. If you are truly have a desire to do something that is immediately self-destructive, and you know rationally that it is so, then you might also consider that such a deviation from what you know to be rational may result from some sort of neuroses as well, which might make one consider some good psychotherapy.

However, I have no idea what you are talking about specifically so I'm not in any way trying to diagnose it.

I somewhat doubt that is what is going on, but only you know the details.

Edited January 3, 2007 by KendallJ

[softwareNerd]

What about more serious desires that may be very self-destructive? One shouldn't act on those desires, but the desire may constantly grow stronger and get very hard to ignore. How does one cure himself from these types of desires?

Yes, the idea of "try it out" breaks down when the potential effects are extremely harmful. For instance, if a particular drug can have strong negative effects at small doses, or if it can cause one to do something extremely dangerous, then it's best not to try it out. I think that if one desires such things, then one must honestly introspect and find out why one desires it. If the desire to do something really dangerous is strong, one should consider getting professional help in understanding it and combating it.

The example you gave was one of wanting to sleep with girls who aren't perfect (at least that's what I understood). In such a case, are we really talking about dangerous or seriously self-destructive behavior? I think a more important value-seeking question is: where are the better girls? Could it be that you associated with a certain set of people, but are now changing your own views and need to find others who fit your new values better? Could it also be that these imperfect girls are really just as good as you are, except that they do not have your new-found knowledge? Aim high.

[~Sophia~]

But I have emotionally intense desires that contradict with my values, and very strong desires are hard to ignore. What I want to know is WHAT CAUSES A DESIRE TO FORM?

Are those truly your values or are those the things you tell yourself you ought to value but in reality you do not?

[BaseballGenius]

The same way one cures oneself of irrational desires. I think folks have given you a taste of what your options might be. If you are truly have a desire to do something that is immediately self-destructive, and you know rationally that it is so, then you might also consider that such a deviation from what you know to be rational may result from some sort of neuroses as well, which might make one consider some good psychotherapy.

Is psychotherapy free? If not, I cant afford it. Either way, I'll just let the desire manifest until I figure out how to get rid of it, or maybe it will go away on its own. I think I know the cause of my most irrational desire, which is a start.

[BaseballGenius]

The example you gave was one of wanting to sleep with girls who aren't perfect (at least that's what I understood). In such a case, are we really talking about dangerous or seriously self-destructive behavior?

No, not with that example. I didnt want to use my more personal desire as an example. Thats why I used that one, just so people will understand the question better.

I think a more important value-seeking question is: where are the better girls?

Better, meaning girls that I have the potential to love, are so seldom that I have literally only met one girl who I would consider to be in that category. To find a girl where we both share the same values, both understand each others personality, both find each other physically attractive, etc, is hard to come by. Essentially, I can only love someone if they are very similar to me. And Im very unique.

[MisterSwig]

How does one change his values?

For example, I agree that sex should only be performed with people who share my values and someone I love. This makes vivid sense to me, because I dont think one should detach his sexual relationships with his entire rational philosophy. And yet my mind is having trouble transferring this thought process to the desires being produced. I still have strong attractions and desires to sleep with far less than "good" people. Having certain strong desires can really wreak havoc on the mind if they are not satisfied or acted upon, or changed.

Is this a case of not being fully convinced of what I think I agree with?

Well, not knowing you personally, it sounds like you aren't "fully convinced" that "sex should only be performed with people who share [your] values and someone [you] love." But even if that is indeed the case, I don't think it is your biggest problem.

I suspect that your bigger problem is not knowing *essentially* what kind of person you want as a sexual partner. Before you can even get to the question of when you should have sex, you need to have an essentialized idea of the kind of person you value in a romantic sense. Start with broad concepts and narrow it down. I'm sure you want someone who is smart and attractive versus dumb and repulsive, right? Well, how smart? How attractive? Do you require a genius supermodel? Or, could you fall in love with a sexually arousing fan of Ayn Rand? If your screen name is an indication of your values, then does your mate have to be a lover of baseball? Or, is it enough that she is willing to go with you to the occassional game on Saturday? Or, does it even matter?

This is how you change your values: by thinking about them. Form a clearer picture of the kind of person you want and then actively seek out such a person. You may have to talk to 1000 women, or only 1, but keep trying to find one that is *essentially* what you want. The trick is to discover which values are essential to you and which ones are optional. But, only you know exactly what you need in a mate. So, you need to figure it out. And once you do, I'm sure you will stop being so concerned about your desire for the "less than 'good' people." That desire will probably fade to a passing thought, or it will be forgotten because you will be too busy pursuing your essential woman.

P.S. You say in another post:

Essentially, I can only love someone if they are very similar to me. And Im very unique.

You should seriously ask yourself what you mean by this. How similar to you does a woman have to be for you to love her? Get to specifics. It's important for you to know these things, otherwise you will continue to be confused about it. Does she have to like the same board games as you? Does she have to prefer the same toothpaste as you? Is it okay if she doesn't like to post on Internet forums? What do you mean by "very similar"?

[BaseballGenius]

Are those truly your values or are those the things you tell yourself you ought to value but in reality you do not?

I was thinking the same thing. With the example of sex partners, I had kept telling myself that one should only sleep with someone he loves. Im not sure I have ever fully believed that though, even if it does make complete sense to me when reading over it. My desires keep persuading me the other way.

[BaseballGenius]

I suspect that your bigger problem is not knowing *essentially* what kind of person you want as a sexual partner. Before you can even get to the question of when you should have sex, you need to have an essentialized idea of the kind of person you value in a romantic sense. Start with broad concepts and narrow it down. I'm sure you want someone who is smart and attractive versus dumb and repulsive, right? Well, how smart? How attractive? Do you require a genius supermodel? Or, could you fall in love with a sexually arousing fan of Ayn Rand? If your screen name is an indication of your values, then does your mate have to be a lover of baseball? Or, is it enough that she is willing to go with you to the occassional game on Saturday? Or, does it even matter?

How smart? About the same as me. We need to share the same philosophical values. I think what matters just as importantly is what she uses her brain for, what her interests are. She doesnt have to love baseball, but she must love physical activity in general. In effect, we will have a common ground right there and that will help us to understand each other.

How beautiful? At least pretty good looking. Im only physically attracted to a girl who is at least at that level and also has to have a genuine interest in improving her physical capabilities(such as in a sport or more general physical actions. Not superficial physical characteristics). I need to be taller than her. Since Im 6'2", that shouldnt be a problem in most cases though.

Personality? I want a girl who is one to keep to herself, not a social butterfly. I have been on my own my entire life and she would need to share my personality to have a chance in understanding me at all. Theres not much room for variation here.

This is how you change your values: by thinking about them. Form a clearer picture of the kind of person you want and then actively seek out such a person. You may have to talk to 1000 women, or only 1, but keep trying to find one that is *essentially* what you want. The trick is to discover which values are essential to you and which ones are optional. But, only you know exactly what you need in a mate. So, you need to figure it out. And once you do, I'm sure you will stop being so concerned about your desire for the "less than 'good' people." That desire will probably fade to a passing thought, or it will be forgotten because you will be too busy pursuing your essential woman.

I think I have her well defined in broad essentials, but the fact that I never meet someone who matches this criteria is quite disheartening, and may be part of the cause of these irrational desires. Its like if, for some reason, I could no longer play baseball, but was still capable of certain physical activity. I would most likely have a desire to play basketball or something like that, and I may settle for that until I figure out how I can play baseball again. Thats similar to sexual partners because if one has an extremely difficult time finding their loved one, a desire for sex with less than good people may form, and may persuade one to settle for less.

You should seriously ask yourself what you mean by this. How similar to you does a woman have to be for you to love her? Get to specifics. It's important for you to know these things, otherwise you will continue to be confused about it. Does she have to like the same board games as you? Does she have to prefer the same toothpaste as you? Is it okay if she doesn't like to post on Internet forums? What do you mean by "very similar"?

Those are very insignificant derivatives that I dont even consider. I dont care what toothpaste she uses, or if she likes internet forums, or if her favorite food is green eggs and ham. The reason why she chooses to value these things or not is what I care about.

[~Sophia~]

How does one intergrate choosen values with emotional responses?

Man is (can be) a self-programmer when it comes to both his cognitive and value development. The sequence of events is:

1) perception of some aspect of reality

2) evaluation (beneficial/harmful relationship)

3) emotional response

On the level of immediate awareness, the sequence is: from perception to emotion.

An undesired emotional response (such as, for example, a desire for a self destructive behaviour) is usually a result of the problem with ether or both of the first two steps.

The most common problem with #1 is evasion. When you block some aspect of reality, when you drop context - it is very easy to end up with an irrational emotional response. But assuming that is not the case, the problem lies with the evaluative process and factors involved in it. The mere perception of an object per se has no power to create an emotion in a man - let alone determine the content of the emotion.

An emotional response to an object necessarily implies a process of appraisal - it always reflects and proceeds from value-judgments. An emotional response is always the reflection and product of an estimate and an estimate is the product of person's values, as the person understands them to apply to a given situation.

The most common problem with the #2 is repression. Since values that underlie some people's emotional reactions can be offensive to their self respect and conscious convictions, they may block the causes of such reactions from awareness.

If one seeks integration - one has to form a habit of seeking to account to themselves for the reasons of their beliefs, emotions, and desires and then check for their objective validity. Understanding the reasons and consciously evaluating them can be a part of the solution. By analyzing the roots of his feelings and desires, a man can discover ideas he has held without conscious awareness, he can be led to a knowledge of values he has formed without verbal indentification, to concepts he has accepted without thought, to beliefs that represent the opposite of his stated conclusions. Enduring and persistant emotions that clash with one's conscious convictions and/or one's values are a sign of unresolved conflicts in their values. Reason and emotion are not antagonist. What may seem like a struggle between them is only a struggle between two opposing ideas, one of which is not conscious and manifests itself only in the form of a feeling. Resolutions are achievable but the necessary first step is to recognize the actual nature of what needs to be resolved.

Aside from the question of objective validity of values, a man may misapply them so that his appraisal is incorrect even in his own terms. Precise formulation of your values and convictions in a clearly defined form is crusial as vagueness and obscurity lead to your values being stored in your subcounscious only as approximations, which can lead to their misapplication.

[MisterSwig]

How smart? About the same as me. We need to share the same philosophical values.

It sounds to me like you have a good idea of what you want physically: someone attractive and athletic. That's usually the easy part. You also have an okay sense of her personality: keeps to herself, not a social butterfly. But I would focus more on this part: her mind. You say that you want someone who "shares the same philosophical values." But that is very, very broad. What exactly are those philosophical values? What are the essential ones? Break it down.

Basically, you need to know what to talk to a girl about on the first date, so that you don't waste your time and hers. If it is essential that she be an egoist, then you better somehow get to that discussion on the first date. Don't waste your time on an unphilosophical girl who doesn't want to even consider such topics. She's wrong for you. And if that is indeed your criteria, then don't waste your time on a girl who is committed to self-sacrifice or nihilism.

Before I went out with my girlfriend, I knew what I required philosophically in a woman. So, our first date consisted of a movie, dinner, and a discussion of Ayn Rand, Objectivism, atheism and egoism. It wasn't in my self-interest to pussyfoot around the philosophic essentials. If she couldn't ditch God and embrace selfishness, then I had more searching to do. So, I tried to find out as quickly as I could whether she had potential of becoming my essential woman. Granted, this is tough to do, but it must be done.

So, my point: you have to be willing to determine the specific philosophic essentials that you require in a woman, and then you have to be willing to go out and seek such a woman or try to convert one so that she becomes your essential woman.

I know it can be hard for students of Objectivism to find women, because there are very few Objectivist women out there. But if you are serious about finding a good woman, then I suggest seeking every possibility to meet Objectivist women: go to conferences and meetings, etc. But also pay attention to the women you see at the places you frequently go to around your neighborhood. I met my girlfriend at work. Maybe there's a girl at your work, school, gym, library, etc. Maybe she can be converted into your essential woman. You'll never know unless you find a way to approach her and talk to her. I wholeheartedly endorse talking to pretty women in random places. They usually don't mind it, as long as they aren't with their boyfriends. And it is just one more chance that you will find a really good woman.

It's getting late, so I'll leave it at that for now.

[Ifat Glassman]

How does one intergrate choosen values with emotional responses?

...

Reason and emotion are not antagonist. What may seem like a struggle between them is only a struggle between two opposing ideas

...

By analyzing the roots of his feelings and desires, a man can discover ideas he has held without conscious awareness...

Wow, great post. I really enjoyed that!

Can you also give advice on how to introspect? I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about this.

[JMeganSnow]

Can you also give advice on how to introspect?

Treat it like you're solving a puzzle you would attack through extrospection:

You feel X. Why do you feel X? Well, you're not sure. So what should you do? Pay attention to what's happening when you feel X. Then you can form a hypothesis about what causes you to feel X. Once you have a hypothesis, you can test it by revisiting the circumstances and observing how you feel. It may be necessary to revise your hypothesis several times until you get a working theory.

After a while, asking yourself "why do I feel this way? What's the situation that causes it? What evaluation am I making?" becomes second nature and you can just do it by examining your memories, you don't have to go out and field-test each hypothesis. I.e. you've learned how to critically introspect. It's not hard, you just have to practice.

Introspection is essentially identical to extrospection in method, it's just that the data you have to work with are different.