Even if I was a communist, I would rather come here

[kingofthething]

I am not sure why, but I decided to see what communist forums are like and to start a debate. I was shocked to see incredible similarities between the format of this forum and theirs. However, there is probably just a standard format for online forums (I don't use them often). The biggest difference from first glance however was the color scheme. I immediately started to think of a dungeon. Black, grey, and red do not seem to make an inviting setting. It fits their personalities though.

Yet, this was hardly the worst part. The people there simply stated false assumptions and quoted their scripture. I, on the otherhand, attempted to argue the moral superiority of Capitalism simply based on my own reasoning (as well as facts as the arguement progressed). Not only that, there was a defeatest tone throughout all of their arguements (as well as the rest of the forum) in conjunction with intense hate for those that succeed.

For example:

"Non-Violence? What about the war in Iraq, it is a war propogated by the capitalists in washington to gain control of an area that it believes is beneficial to them, Oil and a good foot in the middle east. It wasnt about saddam or the terrorists, it was about the money. when we buy something at the store, it seems like it is non violent, but when the roots of that product or service, (gasoline) we can clearly see that there is blood on someones hands."

"The american dream does not exist, it was a foolish attempt to make people more complacent in their positions in society."

"Rights don't exist. What you are talking about are state-granted privileges."

"...uf competition is unregulated then eventually it will lead to violence as competition intensifies. Then you have corporations acting as gangs. How is that free?"

"First, I already discussed the fact that laissez-faire economy leads to gangster-capitalism. Second, if someone wants more in a communist society then they just take more. No violence is needed. Communism is about equal access, not equal distribution."

My favorite: "i guarantee that i work a hell of alot harder than any business owner. when was the last time you saw a business owner roll up his sleeves and lump a trailer with 40,000 lbs of produce? if we were paid relatively to the ammount of work we output, i would be a millionaire and bill gates would be returning bottles."

"what you're misunderstanding is that it is NOT the bourgeoisie who provides the goods. the worker does. the cars that made the Olds family rich weren't built by R.E. Olds, they were built by factory workers. the business owner does nothing but get rich off of our efforts."

"you make me vomit. one out of a hundred million poor people become wealthy one day during their life, and you believe there's "social mobility?" the fact of the matter is that, if you were born poor, chances are, you will remain poor your entire life, and if you were born into wealth, you'll never see it taken away."

It's frustrating reading this garbage, but it reaffirms my beliefs. Also, it seems clear to me that I would be much happier, if for some reason I was a communist (yeah, right), to come here to discuss my views than to spend time with people that seem to hate everything and simply make assertions.

I do not think I did the best job debating, as I do not have the same skill as Ms. Rand, or most of the people on this board. But, I am very happy to know that I was right about the immorality of Communists that is very easy to expose. The link to the debate so far is below if you wish to view it. I would love to get some imput from others on flaws in my arguementation as well as experiences one has had debating online, which is very hard for me compared to verbal confrontations. This is probably due to the large number of issues that were adressed.

http://www.communistleague.org/forum/index...?showtopic=2028

[gags]

It's very difficult to debate with people who are so incredibly screwed up on fundamental issues. You'd probably have a better chance of making progress if you were to discuss metaphysics and epistemology before you tried to delve into ethics, politics, economics, etc.... If you're attempting to sharpen your own skills, that's great. However, if you think you'll change those people, you're wasting your time.

[aequalsa]

The link to the debate so far is below if you wish to view it. I would love to get some imput from others on flaws in my arguementation as well as experiences one has had debating online, which is very hard for me compared to verbal confrontations. This is probably due to the large number of issues that were adressed.

http://www.communistleague.org/forum/index...?showtopic=2028

I read the first several posts. The particular thing that struck me right away was that you listed the right to property as being primary. It is in fact a derivitive of the right to life. As is the right to liberty.

In general though, what I have found in arguments with people that different from myself, is that the breach between me and them is always much more fundemental then economics or even politics. Often times I find that where we disagree is much higher...say freewill or something of that nature. So the only way I know to have any success in a debate with that sort is to start at the begginging. "Do you believe in god?" (metaphysics) and then work your way down. The tiresome part is that even if after a great deal of argument, you are able to come to an agreement, the are unintegrated in general and are not able to extrapolate that to other aspects of their philosophy. So a large amount of spoon feeding is required. I amconfident that I could convince a communist of his mistaken views over the course of 6 months in person, but have not met any that warrant that much effort on my part.

Incidentally, this is probably why no one has taken up the recent communist's request for a debate on this board. It would go in circles and spirals for four years unless in ended in frustration sooner. If he made a specific argument, like freewill doesn't exist, or capitalism leads to inherrent inequalities, someone would probably be more interested. To just argue that capitalism or communism is better, is such a huge subject, it can't be realistically debated.

edit: oops ....missed this point by a couple minutes

Edited January 7, 2007 by aequalsa

[gags]

Incidentally, this is probably why no one has taken up the recent communist's request for a debate on this board. It would go in circles and spirals for four years unless in ended in frustration sooner. If he made a specific argument, like freewill doesn't exist, or capitalism leads to inherrent inequalities, someone would probably be more interested. To just argue that capitalism or communism is better, is such a huge subject, it can't be realistically debated.

The Commy hasn't been back lately. I think he expected to spout slogans instead of actually debating specifics and coming to some conclusions.

[kingofthething]

Thanks for your imput. If felt futile after the first response I got.

[psychotrope]

You certainly are brave to take on a den of communists like that. I try to avoid debating people who disagree with me on such a fundamental level. There's virtually no chance that either of us will change the other's way of thinking, and the truth is I am usually overcome by such a wave of negative emotions when facing someone like that. I'm angry at them for presuming they (or "society") have the right to reduce my freedom to the whim of politicians. I'm depressed that someone can be so anti-life and anti-freedom. I end up feeling traumatized by the whole experience. I don't know if it's just cognitive dissonance or just an inability on my part to deal with conflict (I should really work on that).

It seems that most people decide what they're going to believe, and then try to find "evidence" or reasoning to support the view they've already chosen. And by the time you get into a debate, people aren't rationally considering each point brought up. They're just trying to see that their point of view is the winner.

In the end, this forum has been such a comfort for me since I can actually discuss things with people who agree with me on the fundamentals.

[Dan@NASA]

You can't have a rational discussion with someone who's premises are all wrong.

[Marty McFly]

wow! I have joined this communist forum, I'll see you there when they approve me

If you like debate, help me in my debate HERE I was almost banned from the forums because of my beliefs!