Careers / My Introduction

[BrassDragon]

This is my introduction thread. Just read the next 3 paragraphs if you want the introduction. The main purpose of this thread is for me to get some career advice, and that is what the rest of this long post concerns.

So, first, about me. I'm a sophomore in college at North Carolina's flagship public university in Chapel Hill. I've lived the rural, eastern part of the state all my life. (Mind you, it's not the boonies.) I've wanted to be a novelist since perhaps 7th grade. I've always been a very introspective, 'philosophical' person.

At one point during high school, I became extremely religious (in a Christian sort of way), under the premise that the Bible is infallible. I needed some sort of truth to base my life around. Eventually the results of this weren't good, and I came to both reject that premise and faith entirely. Being the philosophical type, I became a fan of both Rand and Camus - who I see as the two broadly pre-eminent philosophers of the twentieth century. Of course, Rand (and thus "I") won out--an easy battle, but one that had to be fought more than once.

I've read Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, Anthem, Virtue of Selfishness (more or less), The Romantic Manifesto, and I'm working on OPAR (hope to finish by the end of Christmas break). I read AS (my intro to Rand) as a senior in high school and have been serious about Objectivism ever since, although I stumbled a bit in my philosophical studies freshman year at college. I consider myself to have a pretty good understanding of Objectivism, but not a scholarly one. Generally my primary interest in philosophy has been and is ethics, followed by aesthetics, but I've become a lot more interested in the other branches from reading OPAR.

As for specifically career-relatied information - I'm a broadly inquisitive person, and I know I could be good at anything. I consider myself less strong in math and science than humanities. I almost went to Georgetown with the objective of ultimately going to work for the federal government (probably CIA) in the foreign service field, but I ultimately decided I didn't want to do that--largely because I didn't feel comfortable possibly setting myself up to work for someone who wiretaps US citizens and the like. I question that decision now, but I think it would have been premature to decide otherwise. Anyway, I love travel and foreign culture, and I enjoy foreign languages; I'm good at learning them, but not superman good.

So, my dilemma is, it's time to declare my major (but more importantly, I *really* need some sense of direction), and I don't know what kind of career I'm looking for. Like I said, my primary interests in life so far have been philosophy and novels. So it would make sense to go for philosophy professor/novelist. But I think I really want something outside of academia and outside of writing. I want a career in which I can apply what I've learned from Objectivism. Kind of like Rand's heroes, except I'm not set up to be a scientist or an architect (although I'd love to be the latter, actually). I've kind of thrown out majoring in business, because I feel like you should pursue a career you love and *then* get a masters in business if you need one.

I took some crappy online career tests from the university career center. I don't feel like they hit the mark (and they didn't give me definitive results, either). I feel like they miss the key point: you should pursue a career that employs the kind of thinking you want to do. I don't want to think like an accountant or an economist. What I'm really good at is thinking like a really amateur philosopher-novelist, because that's been my hobby for years. But again, I want something where I can apply what I know, not just write about it. Also, I'm an extremely high achiever. If I'm not a famous novelist someday, I want to at least be rich and at the top of whatever thing I'm doing. (I won't be disappointed if I don't meet those criteria, though, as long as I have a productive career I enjoy.)

So, if any of you have any advice on how to think about/search for a career, please let me know. Also you can suggest specific things, but chances are I've thought of them and rejected them, so if you do that, it would be good to mention several things at once, or to mention abstract professions I mightn't have thought about. Again, the kind of thinking I'm good at and enjoy is philosopher/novelist stuff, but I want a career in which I can apply what I know, rather than just write about it.

Addenda: My favorite band is Rush. I have already tried my hand a journalism, which I am good at, but am not particularly passionate about. I might end up going for the philosophy professor thing (please don't laugh ), but I'm concerned about hostility to Objectivists in the field and I wonder whether or not I could come up with anything new to write about--i.e. whether or not current Objectivist philosophers will exhaust/have exhausted the field. Finally, I could be a lawyer, but don't want to spend my life dealing with red tape and bullshit; and that just wouldn't feel productive enough.

[Maarten]

I've learned a lot about this issue from reading Burgess Laughlin's posts on it, here and elsewhere.

I think the most important thing to note is that a career is actually not the highest purpose with regard to productive work. To use the term I've seen Burgess use quite commonly, you need to figure out your central purpose in life (CPL) before you can determine what sort of career you want to pursue. The hierarchy goes basically like this: within a certain career path you can have different jobs that further the career, and the same holds for the CPL, you can at some point switch to a different career path if you think it helps you further your ultimate goal (in the context of productivity) better than the current one. Some CPLs might require you to be proficient at a few things that are hard to find within one specific field, so you might have to pursue rather unrelated careers over the years in order to learn all the skills you will need to excel at what you really want to do.

The best way to describe a CPL is that it is an abstract idea that would define what you really want to do in your life, and the purpose that all your other choices qua productive work should further.

I'll try to give some of the advice Burgess gave in regards to figuring out your CPL here, although I'm not sure if it will be 100% accurate.

He said that one of the best ways to figure out what you really want to do in your life is to remove money from the equation for a moment. Assume that you have won the lottery or something, and that you really don't need to worry about supporting yourself financially anymore. What would you want to do then?

When you try to figure out what you want to do for the rest of your life, then the most important thing to be sure of is that you pick something that you absolutely love doing. If there is something you currently do that you enjoy so much that you can't imagine ever wanting to not do that, then this might be a good starting point. The next step would of course be to verify that you enjoy it for the correct reasons, but I think choosing a certain CPL because it offers you the most monetary benefits rather than allowing you to do what you want to do the most in life is, generally speaking, a mistake. Once you figure out what your CPL is, then you can start figuring out what career paths will best further this CPL, and when you figure that out you can start looking at which specific jobs will best further your chosen careers.

An example of a CPL would be something like: Mastering Objectivism to such a degree that you can teach it to others; become a great writer of historical novels; further the protection of property rights. I'm sorry if my suggestions for CPLs are not so good at this point, I've not done enough thinking on how to formulate them exactly. The main idea is, though, that it's an abstract idea of the overarching purpose that you will build your life around.

[JMeganSnow]

Maarten's advice (via Burgess Laughlin, heh ) is very good, and here's some more from a purely practical standpoint: you cannot possibly go wrong if you learn how to use the tools that are available for pursuing a career nowadays. What I mean is, studying things like machining, welding, computers . . . anything that involves hands-on work. For the one thing, it's more fun than "just theory" classes, and "I can create a large-scale SQL application" is a LOT better for finding a JOB you'll actually ENJOY than "I can prove the quadratic theorum" . . . unless, of course, the job you want is "mathematics professor".

If you don't want to go straight into business, why not look at options like Business Information Systems, where you learn how to use computers and other data-processing stuff in a business environment? Other suggestions: website design, graphic design, AutoCAD, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, bioengineering, human factors engineering (my dad has a degree in this), law, anything medical, applied psychology, management (you would not BELIEVE how huge the demand is for managers who have any clue what they're doing). . . probably a lot more that I can't think of right now. Don't reject stuff like military science and political science, either.

Furthermore: GET CERTIFICATIONS. (Some colleges offer certification programs that fall in line with their degree programs, so that you can get both at once.) In today's job market, having a degree in computers does not actually mean that you can do anything really useful with said computers. However, having a CISCO certification means you can pretty much walk into any major company, wave your resume in the air, and get job offers. WSU (which I attended briefly) had a great program for mechanical engineers because they are a "B" school that, by a quirk of luck, has an extremely good mechanical engineering program that is tougher than hell: if you get a B.S. and can't find a job in your field within six months, they will pay for you to get your Masters. That's a nice thing.

Thirdly: look around online for actual jobs that you would like to do. Some companies have programs where they will pay for you to go to school so that you can fill a specific position. In addition to getting a free ride, this is a great way to structure your education to further your career.

One factor (among many) that soured me on education was the fact that so much of it is essentially useless: you could learn it easier, cheaper, and more accurately by purchasing books and reading them yourself. If you're like me (and you sound kind of like me with the whole novelist thing ) you'll be happier pursuing some kind of practical program. Oddly, even though I was raised in a family with an astonishing dearth of practical skills (or perhaps because I was) I have tremendous respect for anyone that can take theory and turn it into something useful: the people on the "technology" end instead of the "science" end, and I think I'd like to be one of those people myself, which is why I have the job I have now.

[AMERICONORMAN]

If you want to succeed as a novelist this is what I suggest you do.

These are your intellectual goals:

Read Rand's The Art of Fiction, The Romantic Manifesto, and The Virtue of Selfishness.

Study We The Living, if not her bigger novels, intensely.

Read Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris, know it well, and his Preface to Cromwell.

Know what Naturalism is; read Zola and Sinclair Lewis.

Get very familiar with various systems of ethics. You're going to need to build believable characters in the future.

Start writing short stories regularly. Apply the principles you learn in The Art of Fiction to short stories. This will make the novel writing process that much easier.

Reading short stories is quite fun and inspiring (on various levels)

Decide honestly what will be the first novel you will want to write. This will become your central purpose and help you decide what your other intellectual interests will be.

Know what psycho-epistemology is, a sense of life, the inductive method according to Objectivism, and the nature of emotions according to Objectivism.

There are other important and helpful people to read, but doing the above will lead you to all of them. The discoveryis a very enjoyable experience.

-I don't mean that you will never write a novel without doing the above but if you succeed in the above, while regularly practicing the craft of ficton writing, you will be able to produce high quality art.

In the meantime you will have to save your money. This is important. At some point in your life you will want to buy six months or so of free time from work. Also, falling in love might give you great inspiration.

I hope you succeed because the world and Objectivism desperately need great Romantic writers.

Jose Gainza.

[Mimpy]

If you have to decide now for a major and it has to be final, this might be too late, but it could still be fun to do....you could apply for an internship position at the ARI institute for the summer and see how you like it.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Mimpy

[BrassDragon]

Thanks so much to all of you who responded! I've been/am busy getting ready for school/moving back after Winter Break, so I haven't had time to reply in detail, but I will soon.

[Bold Standard]

I've kind of thrown out majoring in business, because I feel like you should pursue a career you love and *then* get a masters in business if you need one.

I thought this was interesting. I've never heard someone express this view point before. How did you come to that conclusion? Who has time to pursue a business career and at the same time get a masters degree?

[realitycheck44]

I thought this was interesting. I've never heard someone express this view point before. How did you come to that conclusion? Who has time to pursue a business career and at the same time get a masters degree?

I don't mean to speak for BrassDragon, but I think I see where he's going with that. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) It's a thought I've had myself. If I wanted to start my own company- newpaper, yachts, electronics, buildings, etc- I should first get a degree in the field I'm interested in, as opposed to getting a business degree. If I wanted to start my own newspaper, I'd get a degree in journalism. My own yacht company- naval architecture. You get the idea. Obviously, you cannot start out with your own business, so you work with a company for a while and then quit to start your own. Somewhere in there is where you either get a business degreee or think about hiring someone else to do the dirty work for you.

Is this what you were talking about BrassDragon?

[gags]

If I wanted to start my own company- newpaper, yachts, electronics, buildings, etc- I should first get a degree in the field I'm interested in, as opposed to getting a business degree. If I wanted to start my own newspaper, I'd get a degree in journalism. My own yacht company- naval architecture. You get the idea. Obviously, you cannot start out with your own business, so you work with a company for a while and then quit to start your own. Somewhere in there is where you either get a business degreee or think about hiring someone else to do the dirty work for you.

An older gentleman who specialized in doing executive searches (he was a "headhunter" in business lingo) once told me essentially the same thing. He looked unfavorably on people who went to school for an undergraduate degree in business and then obtained an MBA. In his opinion, that person didn't have the broad practical knowledge required to become an effective manager. He preferred to see job candidates with undergraduate degrees in something other than business who had gone out and worked in their chosen field or industry. After the candidate had some experience, it then made sense to return to school and earn a masters degree in business or in the person's chosen field. This approach requires a little bit more patience and a long-term perspective, but there is definitely some logic to it.

[BrassDragon]

Maarten - thanks so much for your advice on CPL. I did a pretty thorough search of the forum on that (since you told me what to search for) and I did find a lot of great stuff in addition to what you said, esp. by BurgessLau.

JMeganSnow - I think you're right that I'd enjoy something technical/applicable/"practical". It's frustrating that my school is extremely slanted towards the liberal arts, which I feel leaves me few options (short of transferring), which isn't really a good option (although it may become necessary). We do have psychology, anything medical, and law. And I am definitely considering each of those. (We also have computer science, which I might do but am really hesitant about.)

AMERICONORMAN - thanks for your good advice on succeeding as a novelist. I've been thinking along the same lines, though I haven't committed myself to being a novelist yet. I don't think I have enough confidence in myself right now. I've read the books you suggested except Art of Fiction, and that may help get me started, so I'll read it soon.

Mimpy - good suggestion, and I'm definitely thinking (and have already been thinking for a good while) about applying for an internship at ARI. In fact, I almost definitely will, but whether or not they accept me - and then whether or not I would accept the internship - is a different question. I do wonder if that would advance my CPL or career or whatever (obviously that depends on what that is), more than a traditional internship with a corporaiton or something. If I decide on the novelist thing, I probably would take the internship if offered; otherwise, maybe not, depending on what other internship offers I get.

Bold Standard - gags and realitycheck spoke pretty accurately for me. People do have time to go back and get masters degrees; presumably, companies need people with those skills who are also actually specialists in the company's field and know the business. In my view, there is no such business as "business."

So, to update everyone - I've basically become extremely demoralized, because I feel like I have to have a CPL or something like that now (as in by tomorrow or Friday) in order to take the right classes and not waste a semester (and my university limits you to 9 semesters, so that's really important). I don't feel like I can answer these questions in time to get the right classes. Of course, even if I don't, I'll still have to figure out what my goals are.

My only passionate aspiration ever in life has been to be a novelist. I've always wanted to project in literature my vision of the world, just as writers like Camus, Rand, Hugo, and Dostoyevsky have. So I wonder - would that signify that any other CPL would basically be an arbitrary decision, and that I pretty much need to focus on becoming a novelist (and take the appropriate courses, go into the right jobs, etc.)? I'm not as confident as I used to be about my abilty to write groundbreaking novels - but maybe life is, in some way, an all-or-nothing thing, where I should settle for less than my highest aspiration. (?) Ironically, the more I've read Rand, the more focused on direct application and "productivity" I've become, and the less I've felt I could be happy trying to be a novelist. Of course, that's silly, because being a novelist is extremely productive.