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Maybe I just don't get it, but I can't understand the fact that depression is a disease. I have been very upset for extended periods throughout the short time I have been alive. Yet, these states, in retrospect, were only temporary. Perhaps it is not this way for everyone, it just seems that my values and my judgement were the cause for the mindset I was in and my return to my optimistic, joyful self.

I am wondering if I can get a solid scientific explanation as to why depression is a disease that must be treated with drugs. I know the movie, What the Bleep Do We Know?, was a terrible example of pseudo-science, but there was one part that captured my attention when we were shown it in English class (don't ask, he was a total hippie). It discussed the idea that the brain and body were deeply connected in that emotions/situations dictated chemical responses. People could then become addicted to certain chemicals and thus addicted and stuck in a certain state of mind.

I really have no idea about the nature of depression as it is medically defined and I am getting sick of people calling me a jerk for being skeptical of its existance.

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At least from a layman's perspective, it appears that physical changes can be the primary cause of depression and other psychological states. For instance, drugs can change one's psychological/emotional state. Hormonal changes seem to do the same. In other cases, something -- say, some string of tragedies, coupled with some poor conclusions about the world -- may be the primary cause. If these types of causes are causing depression, then taking drugs will not remove the cause. So, a purely drug-based approach doesn't appear wise in the latter case.

There are some related threads here, here, and here.

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Well, it should certainly be possible for the circuitry of the brain to be defective, making normal communication impossible. Consciousness doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it has to have some way of interacting with the brain in order to make physical actions possible. If one of these pathways is broken, then you may have a perfectly normal consciousness but it simply cannot make the body something it normally could do.

I think a good analogy might be that consciousness is like a person sitting behind a huge control panel of a machine that is basically self-sufficient in its physical necessities. You can interact with the machine by giving various commands, but it would be pure primacy of consciousness to expect consciousness to be able to interact with the body without having any (physical) means to do so. There has to be some sort of connecting component that allows this interaction, and it is this component that can be defective due to a genetic defect or some such thing.

If one of the wires breaks in your machine you won't be able to use it anymore, until you fix it. I think that's where the drugs come in.

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Psychiatrists almost always suggest medication with counseling. I did an internship last summer at the University of Pennsylvania in its Behavioral Health department. They were doing a lot of clinical research on depression and ADHD. One of the main problems I saw was that many of the patients were taking their medications all right, but they were either too lazy or too poor to go to counseling. The meds help temporarily, but the counseling helps in the long-run.

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Maybe I just don't get it, but I can't understand the fact that depression is a disease. I have been very upset for extended periods throughout the short time I have been alive. Yet, these states, in retrospect, were only temporary. Perhaps it is not this way for everyone, it just seems that my values and my judgement were the cause for the mindset I was in and my return to my optimistic, joyful self.

I am wondering if I can get a solid scientific explanation as to why depression is a disease that must be treated with drugs. I know the movie, What the Bleep Do We Know?, was a terrible example of pseudo-science, but there was one part that captured my attention when we were shown it in English class (don't ask, he was a total hippie). It discussed the idea that the brain and body were deeply connected in that emotions/situations dictated chemical responses. People could then become addicted to certain chemicals and thus addicted and stuck in a certain state of mind.

I really have no idea about the nature of depression as it is medically defined and I am getting sick of people calling me a jerk for being skeptical of its existance.

Drugs are rarely the best answer to anything. They should be used as a last resort, for instance if your mental state will result in physical harm to yourself or others.

"A disease or medical condition is an abnormality of the body or mind that causes discomfort, dysfunction, distress, or death to the person afflicted or those in contact with the person."
Depression ia caused by cognitive distortions which gives your environment(the uncontrollable) too much power over the way you feel. A cognitive distortion is an abnormality, why should this not be a disease? Changing the way you think needs to be done actively(consciously), since depression drugs are passive they will not get rid of your cognitive distortions. They work on changing your brain chemistry. If you have social anxiety you can drink alcohol but this will not cure your social anxiety, anti-depressives are the same. They are not working getting to the cause of the problem, in the same way that glasses do not fix the cause of bad eyesight.

I can understand why so many people are prescribed anti-depression drugs though in the same way they are prescribed drugs for most things in life. If you want to look after your health YOU must do it. Doctors should not be relied on for health; if anything they should be avoided. You cannot expect them to commit all their focus on your health considering the sheer amount of patients they have to deal with. In this case I agree with some points from the "alternative health" crowd BUT there are rational scientific reasons behind a holistic approach (avoidance of antibiotics for instance, and focusing on prevention) as opposed to the disintegrated "we are a car and when a part breaks we go to the doc to fix it" approach.

I don't like to plug books, because lots of people on forums recommend half-baked books that waste time and money, but I can recommend Feeling Good by David D. Burns. Out of all the self-help tripe I have read this is one of the best. Just buy his one book, don't buy any more, like most authors do, he has just rephrased his material and added a few more points in the other books. The reason I recommend it to you (even though you no longer are depressed) is that before, your environment made you depressed and this was a cognitive distortion as you let your environment(external) control you(internal). Now that the stressor(external environment) has gone you may feel better but your cognitive distortions may still be present. Even if you think yourself perfectly rational (like I did, and most do) you may still be suprised to find the errors in your cognitions.

The reason I tell you to read that book and leave it at that is that "self-help" is a slippery slope. Whatever you do don't subscribe to anything from the hypnosis/NLP/"New Age" faith/spiritual .etc healing hucksters, as you cannot be an objectivist and agree with their premises. These guys pretend not to be interested in money but let me tell you they are. These guys are classic Ellsworth Tooheys. "New Age" people pretend not to be interested in money but let me tell you the "What the Bleep"-style authors are millionaires.

"It discussed the idea that the brain and body were deeply connected in that emotions/situations dictated chemical responses."

Perhaps a good point made in that movie.You don't need to subscribe to any "New Age" to believe this as it is well known in science that biochemistry changes according to your mood. Your life span and state of health is greatly influenced by your mood, far more so then anyone would think. However, looking in the mirror and loving yourself like that woman does in the film will not make you lost weight. It will not give you a "fast metabolism", of which there is no such thing- such a statement is a misinterpretation of the concept and an ignorance of thermodynamics.

Edited by Magitek
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I've been depressed before (and prescribed medication for it), but I've pretty much found that it was a result of being in a bad situation and not getting myself out of it. When I got out of that situation, I wasn't depressed any more (much), and the more work I do the less depressed I am. Sometimes I'll have temporary relapses (usually during the winter) but I'm a lot better off now than I was.

The medication did not help.

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I’m so glad you brought up this topic. I had reached the conclusion that depression is by and large the result of one’s inability to accept or control unfavorable circumstances, and not so much a matter of chemical imbalance. Barbara Branden, on OL, tried to convince me that I needed drugs to solve my problem, but I have a compelling believe that the problem is caused by some deep-rooted premises.

In my case, I could over-simplify the situation and blame my depression on the government. The town is in the process of seizing my otherwise fully-owned home for back taxes. This is causing me great stress. I thought I could solve my problem by making a lot of money through selling life insurance and financial services as an agent of a large company. Then I realized that my personality just isn’t the type that “wins friends and influences people.” After months of zero success in recruiting and selling to the cold market, I began once again to sink into hopeless depression.

I would think: if the government would only leave me alone, I could be happy enough on the $6,000/year I earned as a freelance JoaT (Jack of all Trades), doing a little video here, a little graphic design there, a little radio work there, etc. But I realized that I can’t change the unfair nature of property taxes. Stealing from the poor may not seem like a popular thing, politically, but towns evict scores of senior citizens every year after jacking up taxes to the point where one is paying the original purchase price of their home, twice a year today, in taxes—and the public doesn’t seem bothered by this.

I concluded that I need to figure out what’s been stopping me from making more than poverty wages for more than fifty years, and that, I believe, leads to an investigation of premises.

It is hard to live as a rational being in an irrational society with inane laws that make the rational person very angry just to think about there devastating effects on free people. But it isn’t going to change any time soon, as the Socialists and the Kantian thinkers are in control of the educational system and it perpetuates and grows. Just thinking about the losing battle we Objectivists are fighting is enough to make me depressed. But for me, personally, it is the lack of money, the worry, the lack of clients, the lack of other people in a position to buy my services who don’t consider what I have to offer, worth paying for—and the resultant poverty that this creates for me—coupled with the fact that now pay five times the purchase price of my piece of property in taxes every year and I can’t pay it and have money to eat and keep the utilities on at the same time—that constant pressure gets to one after 20 some odd years of struggling in a losing economic battle.

I for one, know that if I had money, and was able to earn it doing what I’m good at, I would feel efficacious, secure financially, and feel happiness. It’s the lacking of those things that for me, causes me severe strife, sleepless nights, etc. I’ll admit that I spend a substantial part of my waking day thinking about military countermeasures for when the SWAT teams come to evict us from our home. I find it easy to get ensnared in that depressing train of thought, as I’ve been doing it for the last 20 years, as I became personally in conflict with more and more unjust laws without the money to shield me from those laws’ harsh effects.

I keep reading self-help books, but it is all ‘feel good’ words—just words—and words alone don’t affect the way I feel or bring me to action.

Now I remember when I was young, and constantly mistreated in the most viscious manner by gangs of bullies. They’d never come one on one, it was always 12-15 other kids against one. But they’d taunt, and attack my self-image until I started to feel that not only that ugly face I saw in the mirror was my only problem, but that I was a loser on the whole.

Years later, I could not function socially in high school—I was the most unpopular kid in the whole school. In fact, I was unofficially voted “most likely to fail” (a parody on “Most like to succeed”, a category in our HS yearbook.) I remember the tortured years of seeing a girl with whom I would become infatuated to a point of becoming unable to think about anything else. And the big countdown would start, in which I’d go from enjoying the site of the girl whenever I caught a glimpse, to the thought that I need to approach that girl and tell her my feelings. Over a span of weeks, the urgency to approach the girl would intensify, as would my uneasiness. It became a very stressful situation, where my stomache would get all screwed up, my face would turn white, my hands would turn purple and stone cold, and I would be unable to speak without stuttering. But as I saw the opportunity’s window of availability slipping away, I would force myself to plan an interception and hope for a sympathetic response. But, in each of 105 instances throughout my teen and early adult years, the response was always one of disgust—I was always treated like a creature, not even a human being, and I would fall into intense despair and by the time I was 25, I believed that I would never find a woman, ever. In fact, I had some arranged dates that sent conflicting signals and almost drove me over the edge. I wound up as a bum for a number of years, unable to hold a job, deep in despair and shock from one particularly nasty instance where a ‘carrot’ was dangled before me long enough to rekindle long lost hopes that there was a chance for me, only to have it mysteriously yanked away, for no reason I could fathom at the time. I never held a good job after that. I got some stinking, godawful factory job that was so boring that my mind literally rotted away for the several years that I packed those items into boxes for 12-16 hours a day.

Then one day I retired. And I didn’t have enough money on a fixed income to keep up on the taxes on my otherwise paid-for home. But before things got really bad, I met my betrothed via the internet. Don’t ask me why, but this time, I knew it was for real, not just another cruel trick of fate. That was almost a decade ago. A few years ago, we had a child, despite the concerns that at advanced age, the parents often conceive autistic children. Fortunately, our daughter is normal. I was inclined to believe in miracles because of these two events.

And I would be happy today still, were it not for the fact that our home is about to be seized for back taxes. And with the exponential increases in the price of energy utilities, I can see that we would soon not be able to afford them either.

This late realization that I can’t beat the ‘system’ has put me on an emergency journey of self-discovery, as I seek to find out if there is a mental blockade between me and financial success. Why do I hate people? How can I stop hating people enough so that they don’t sense that I’m only out to get their money? How can I become a likeable person? How can I stop making enemies everywhere I go? Am I afraid of success? Is it the tax burdens and bookkeeping burdons that repell me from going all-out for success? These are just of few of the questions I am asking myself.

Depression, I believe, is rarely chemically-caused. Drugs treat symptoms. My mother was deeply depressed after Ayn Rand passed away. Within four years, she died, in a mental institution—her life had gone so quickly downhill. But the underlying reason was that my parents had severe money problems and they were getting old and had not achieved even a small fraction of their dreams. One could blame their physical illnesses, but one may also blame them for using those illnesses as crutches, or excuses for failing to achieve their goals. They both died in abject poverty, and horrible, painful deaths—mom, by choking on her own vomit in a mental institution because they had tied her up to a chair to force feed her, dad, of Leukemia in a hospital with cardiac arrest being the cause of death.

Success seems to come more easily for those who have a good head-start—ie., wealthy parents who put them through college. Sure, there are many who goof off and achieve only mediocre results, but there are the majority who enjoy good, middle income lifestyles. There are very few people who have that incredible power to rise above poverty though. Many of us who are born into it, die that way.

Depression comes from a desire to live dreams of a means beyond one’s reach. Happiness is a direct relationship between where one is today and where one expected to be today. If the two are at unity, one is content. If one’s situation is far worse than one expected to achieve by this stage of life, one is miserable. Ie., the waitress who believed that she should have been in a successful acting career by now.

One thing is for certain: the pharmaceutical industry is making a lot of money off miserable and sick people. There is financial motivation to keep people on drugs. Unless drugs caused your depression, drugs can’t fix your depression.

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I've been depressed before (and prescribed medication for it), but I've pretty much found that it was a result of being in a bad situation and not getting myself out of it. When I got out of that situation, I wasn't depressed any more (much), and the more work I do the less depressed I am. Sometimes I'll have temporary relapses (usually during the winter) but I'm a lot better off now than I was.

I, too, used to frequently get depressed in my early teen years. It was absolutely terrible. I'd go through months of feeling sad for absolutely no reason. Medications didn't help...a rational mind did.

I think it really is about one's outlook on life. Pessimism? Optimism? Realism? I'd say I'm a realist, and so nothing gets me that down anymore because I know realistically I can probably overcome it. I'm a happy little duckling now. :)

Reminds me of what Roark said in TF, about something hurting only down to a certain point but after that it doesn't hurt anymore.

Edited by Mimpy
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I think feelings of hopelessness, pointlessness or inadequacy are always present in depression.

The first two don't seem distinct from "sad." The third would seem better called "feeling inadequate." I think the term "depression" is one of those bromides like "greed" that doesn't really have a clear and working definition. Like "greed," it can point to real things that exist, but it almost always muddies the waters.

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The first two don't seem distinct from "sad."
They are. One could be sad if one loses a value, but depressed if one feels that one is never going to gain any values. If one sees a friend betray one, it might cause one to feel sadness (among other feelings); if one feels that all friendships are useless and will ultimately lead to betrayal, one feels depression.
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They are. One could be sad if one loses a value, but depressed if one feels that one is never going to gain any values. If one sees a friend betray one, it might cause one to feel sadness (among other feelings); if one feels that all friendships are useless and will ultimately lead to betrayal, one feels depression.

It would seem, then, that the term is over-used. And there is a muddled distinction as to whether these feelings must arise for no reason, or merely be incorrect, to qualify.

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I am very skeptical that a person can feel depressed for no reason. I suspect that many people feel depressed for reasons they do not understand.

I don't doubt this is possible. I do doubt that the majority of people diagnosed with depression are in such a condition. Like you said, it is simply the fact that they do not understand the reasons.

I have no hard data to back that thoery up, but given the number of people who do not understand how ideas work, I am willing to bet this is quite likely.

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I don't doubt this is possible. I do doubt that the majority of people diagnosed with depression are in such a condition. Like you said, it is simply the fact that they do not understand the reasons.

I have no hard data to back that thoery up, but given the number of people who do not understand how ideas work, I am willing to bet this is quite likely.

I agree with this view from personal experience and from what I've read on the subject. Here are some facts about depression which you may find interesting:

  • Depression is the commonest illness treated by UK doctors and the fourth commonest in the world.

  • Approximately 3.2 million people in Britain (7 per cent) are clinically depressed.

  • 25 million (9 per cent) of Americans are clinically depressed at any one time.

  • Between 1990 and 2000 the number of prescriptions written for depression every year in the UK rose by more than ten million.

  • Depression is estimated to cost the British economy £8 billion a year through time off work, treatment costs, suicides and reduced productivity - equivalent to £160 a year for every man, woman and child.

  • In Australia children as young as five are currently being treated for depression.

  • According to recent studies by Science News half an hour's exercise three to five times a week has the same effect (or better) than drugs, regularly reducing symptoms by nearly 50%.

  • It was also found that placebos are better at curing depression than drugs or herbal remedies.

  • In a series of tests carried out over 17 years a Seattle psychiatrist named Dr Arif Khan found that St Johns Wort completely cured 24 per cet of cases, the anti-depressant drug Zoloft cured 25 per cent of cases, but the placebos completely cured 32 per cent of cases.

  • In another study comparing the anti-depressants Prozac and Efexor with placebos the drugs had a 52% cure rate but the placebos still had an impressive 38%. And interesting as soon as the deception was revealed the patients' condition worsened rapidly.

  • If you are reliant on anti-depressants it can cause your brain to stop producing it's own dopamine completely.

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  • 25 million (9 per cent) of Americans are clinically depressed at any one time.

(bold mine)

From what I have herd of the difference between sub-clinical depression (one which passes over time without the need for treatment) and clinical depression is the fact that people who are clinically depressed have, on balance, a negative view of themselves and not just a negative evaluation of the world and future combined with the feeling of hopelessness.

So, the solution, at least partially, can lie in improving one's self concept, no? This may explain the effectiveness of physical activity but it can also mean that any positive action which would make a person feel good about themselves (taking them a step closer to what/who they would like to be) could have similar effect.

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So, the solution, at least partially, can lie in improving one's self concept, no? This may explain the effectiveness of physical activity but it can also mean that any positive action which would make a person feel good about themselves (taking them a step closer to what/who they would like to be) could have similar effect.

Yes it works for me. The placebo effect proves that most people can beat depression without drugs but then most people don't have a rational philosophy to work with. The book I took those facts from concludes with vague statement: "you can train yourself to be happy".

Edited by Feanor
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