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Morning Tiredness

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You act like youre so busy and productive every second of the day.

Hah, busy, yes. Productive? Not always.

That you dont even spend any time resting or being relaxed ever.
I don't. Either I'm doing something or I'm asleep (or trying, unsuccessfully, to sleep... this is an intolerable state which I call "boredom."). If I'm thinking about things, this is an active state where I have a book, notepad, spreadsheet, or research in front of me. If I'm relaxed, I'm reading, watching a movie/tv, talking to someone, or something. I'm never doing nothing; not if I can help it.

"Oh, doing nothing but thinking for 30 minutes is not productive enough for me, even if something like this is necessary to help me fall asleep."

I believe the term I used was "boring."

Also, do you put your head on the headboard or on the pillow right away?

On the pillow. Usually, I sit and think with my eyes closed for 10-45 minutes and somewhere in there I pass out. The problem is, if I sleep in the previous day (to catch up on that sleep I'm not getting), then extend this by the exact amount that I slept in. So usually, I just don't bother going to bed until later, when I actually feel tired.

Edited by Inspector
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I'm never doing nothing; not if I can help it.

Okay, I did think of two examples when I'm doing nothing:

1) When I just wake up and my brain isn't working right yet

2) When I'm so exhausted that I could sleep but haven't yet gone to bed, sometimes I will just stop and stare without realizing it

But I suppose neither of those qualifies as "if I can help it." So nuts, I guess I didn't think of two examples.

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I believe the term I used was "boring."

Thats fine that its boring, possibly even helpful. It will help settle you down and get you in a mood for sleeping. So instead of asking yourself if its boring, ask if its productive.

On the pillow. Usually, I sit and think with my eyes closed for 10-45 minutes and somewhere in there I pass out.
I would suggest putting your head on the headboard initially to allow some time for your mind and body to adjust to the sleep mood. I dont know how some people do it but thrusting yourself into sleep the second you get into bed after being active all day doesnt seem like it would give your body any time to adjust to the sleep mode. Some people can do that, some people cant.

The problem is, if I sleep in the previous day (to catch up on that sleep I'm not getting), then extend this by the exact amount that I slept in. So usually, I just don't bother going to bed until later, when I actually feel tired.

Are you sure you are active enough, mentally and physically? Or maybe you are too active close to bedtime.

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Thats fine that its boring, possibly even helpful. It will help settle you down and get you in a mood for sleeping. So instead of asking yourself if its boring, ask if its productive.

The point is that I'd prefer not to have to deal with the boredom. So much so that I'll often stay up until I'm exhausted so I can spend less time in bed doing nothing. But this makes my sleep scheduling problem even worse.

I would suggest putting your head on the headboard initially to allow some time for your mind and body to adjust to the sleep mood.
I'll keep that in mind.

Or maybe you are too active close to bedtime.

Yes, I pretty much always am because I get a surge of energy then. It's like as soon as my bedtime gets near, I just start getting more and more energized. It's really tough to fight it and calm down.

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I missed that. My eyes were fuzzy after a 15 hour workday.

You were talking about meditation earlier to assist in falling asleep even when they are not tired. What exactly do you mean by meditation?

Following several deep breaths, one excercise which I find very useful while lying in bed is to start with my toes and deliberately relax each muscle moving up to my face. I work in construction and find that I very often am tight in a lot of places. I generally wake up less sore when I do that.

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The point is that I'd prefer not to have to deal with the boredom. So much so that I'll often stay up until I'm exhausted so I can spend less time in bed doing nothing. But this makes my sleep scheduling problem even worse.

You make a lot of posts on here, so I assume you probably dont think that thinking is boring and is considered something. So why do you keep acting like thinking in bed is one of the most dreaded activites you could do?

Yes, I pretty much always am because I get a surge of energy then. It's like as soon as my bedtime gets near, I just start getting more and more energized. It's really tough to fight it and calm down.

Are you sure you get enough physical activity each day?

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You make a lot of posts on here, so I assume you probably dont think that thinking is boring and is considered something. So why do you keep acting like thinking in bed is one of the most dreaded activites you could do?

Thinking and not acting on my thoughts; i.e. posting them, writing them down, researching ideas, or working on projects is kind of different from thinking with doing those things. Also, as I noted, if I actively think about things, I will get more and more awake. If I have ideas, then I'll have to get out of bed and write them down or I'll go crazy. To the extent that I think about interesting things, I will remain awake (not good), so I have to block thoughts or think about boring things, which bores me (yeah, imagine that). What I really need is a friggin "off" button.

This is a secondary issue, however. The main trouble is that, regardless of the boredom issue, I am for the most part simply not tired enough to have any chance of falling asleep until it is already well past when I should be sleeping. Yes, the boredom makes it worse by demotivating me from "settling down" and magnifies this, but it is not the primary problem. As I said, I could tolerate a little boredom if it meant I was guaranteed to fall asleep at a reasonable hour. But it is no such thing. My system just seems to "want" the day to have more than 24 hours.

Are you sure you get enough physical activity each day?

I don't know what "enough" is for "every day;" I know that my heartrate, blood pressure, body fat, and endurance have all been tested to be "athlete" level but my job is sedentary so on most days so am I. I have the same problems on days when I exercise, however, so I know that this is not the source of my trouble.

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I don't know what "enough" is for "every day;" I know that my heartrate, blood pressure, body fat, and endurance have all been tested to be "athlete" level but my job is sedentary so on most days so am I. I have the same problems on days when I exercise, however, so I know that this is not the source of my trouble.

Im not talking about health issues like the ones you mention. You admit you are sedentary most of the day, which makes me believe lack of physical exercise is the problem. You say even on days when you workout, it doesnt help, but I know that your workouts take no longer than 20 minutes. What I think is necessary is more time spent on physical activites, because it will expend more energy, which is your problem. When I say more time spent on physical activites, I dont mean your workouts should be longer, but instead more simple physical activites should be added into your daily routine. If you think about it, the problem you have is having enough energy for a 25 or 26 hour day, so logically it would mean you need to use up more energy to tire yourself out quicker.

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You say even on days when you workout, it doesnt help, but I know that your workouts take no longer than 20 minutes. What I think is necessary is more time spent on physical activites, because it will expend more energy, which is your problem.

Believe me, my workouts expend enough energy. On workout days I am both tired, physically exhausted, and yet somehow maddeningly awake. I once worked another job that had me doing a lot of activity all day, tearing down IT stuff at offices, crawling around, lifting things, and generally getting a big sweat up for extended periods. I slept much worse then, if anything. So as I said, I am sure that is not the problem. Besides, you're talking about working myself into physical exhaustion on a daily basis as a "solution" to this problem. The cure might be worse than the disease.

Again, though, I have to emphasize that there are people out there (some call them "morning people," and they represent the majority of the population) that don't have to go through all of these convoluted "tricks" to go to sleep. Their head hits the pillow and they're out.

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Believe me, my workouts expend enough energy. On workout days I am both tired, physically exhausted, and yet somehow maddeningly awake.

I usually workout on my off days, and surprisingly those are days I go to bed later as well. This is because Im sitting around the rest of the day for the most part, so I end up having energy to spare. Its days that Im physically active throughout most of the day that Im able to maintain a consistent bedtime.

I once worked another job that had me doing a lot of activity all day, tearing down IT stuff at offices, crawling around, lifting things, and generally getting a big sweat up for extended periods. I slept much worse then, if anything. So as I said, I am sure that is not the problem.
You may want to try it again. Does the theory not make sense to you, that since you have enough energy to last for 25/26 hours, that you need to expend more energy to fall asleep sooner?

Besides, you're talking about working myself into physical exhaustion on a daily basis as a "solution" to this problem. The cure might be worse than the disease.

I guess the cure would be worse if you like to sit around all day, and cant man up to use your muscles each day. Being physically active throughout the day is actually very rewarding if you value hard and productive work. Getting yourself exhausted usually means you worked hard, and its something you shouldnt shy away from doing.

Again, though, I have to emphasize that there are people out there (some call them "morning people," and they represent the majority of the population) that don't have to go through all of these convoluted "tricks" to go to sleep. Their head hits the pillow and they're out.

They just seem like "tricks" to you because youre not already doing them, and that you have to figure out what those other people are doing right. Im sure every body feels like they have to do "tricks" with something in their life, but thats only because they are missing some key elements.

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You may want to try it again.

Quit my job? No, thanks. Come on, man!

Does the theory not make sense to you, that since you have enough energy to last for 25/26 hours, that you need to expend more energy to fall asleep sooner?
Not as such, no it does not make sense. I mean it makes sense that it would put me to sleep by exhausting me, sure. That's not in dispute. The part that I don't agree with is that this implies that it is either the best or the only way to fall asleep sooner.

I guess the cure would be worse if you like to sit around all day, and cant man up to use your muscles each day.

Nice try, tex. Maybe I have better things to do with my day. (like work at my job) Maybe it's not worth it to spend, what, four? five? eight? hours of it exercising, to avoid 20 minutes of boredom. I like my workouts 20 minutes and infrequently, not all day every day.

They just seem like "tricks" to you because youre not already doing them, and that you have to figure out what those other people are doing right. Im sure every body feels like they have to do "tricks" with something in their life, but thats only because they are missing some key elements.

I think they were born able to sleep instantly and easily and I was not. It's possible they aren't doing anything more "right" than I am.

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Quit my job? No, thanks. Come on, man!

I didnt mean you should get a new job. I meant you should add more physical activity into your daily routine.

Not as such, no it does not make sense. I mean it makes sense that it would put me to sleep by exhausting me, sure. That's not in dispute. The part that I don't agree with is that this implies that it is either the best or the only way to fall asleep sooner.

I think youre being closed-minded. You shoot down every single idea from everybody without a second thought.

I think they were born able to sleep instantly and easily and I was not. It's possible they aren't doing anything more "right" than I am.

What is clear though is that you need to fix your problem, whether or not others have genetic advantages.

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I didnt mean you should get a new job. I meant you should add more physical activity into your daily routine.

What I meant was that the level of activity you called for would require me to quit my job. But I gave this one some more thought, and I think I disagree more fundamentally with your theory that it is about "energy." If I have too much energy, then we both know exercise is a very inefficient means of expending energy. It would make more sense to reduce my intake of calories if that were my problem. But it isn't; I'm already dieting at the moment so my "energy" levels are not the problem. As I said, I already know that I have a problem of increasing alertness/awakeness when I should be going to bed, regardless of how much exercise I got in a day.

I think youre being closed-minded. You shoot down every single idea from everybody without a second thought.
I think a better explanation is that I've already given this a lot of thought and already considered most of the suggestions being offered. I also know my personal context better than people who don't know me. I welcome the ideas and suggestions offered, it's simply that none have so have been useful to me personally. I think that for other people with sleeping problems, this thread may be a wealth of information.

What is clear though is that you need to fix your problem, whether or not others have genetic advantages.

Oh, certainly. But I do have working solutions for now. I have to attend a daytime meeting all day today, so I stayed up all day yesterday and then slept for about 12 hours. I'll stay up late tonight and then be all set with a corrected sleeping schedule. Sure, I still have the problem of slipping, but I can fix it again when needed.

Ultimately, I will need to either find a permanent solution that doesn't require me to go through more inconvienience than the problem itself, or I'll have to stop working for an employer who expects regular hours. Given my personal context, the latter is actually more likely in the long run.

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If I have too much energy, then we both know exercise is a very inefficient means of expending energy.

Why do you say that?

It would make more sense to reduce my intake of calories if that were my problem. But it isn't; I'm already dieting at the moment so my "energy" levels are not the problem.
Thats because being on a calorie-deficit diet doesnt automatically mean you are going to tire yourself out enough to sleep regularly. It might mean you need to use up less energy throughout the day for this purpose, but you still need to be active.

As I said, I already know that I have a problem of increasing alertness/awakeness when I should be going to bed.

Because you have energy to spare. Why else would you have a lot of energy before bed?

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Because you have energy to spare. Why else would you have a lot of energy before bed?

Because one caveman always had to stay awake longer to keep the wolves at bay while the others slept?

Why do you say that?

Because I could eat in five seconds the amount of calories it would take 5 hours to burn.

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Exactly! :D

:confused:

I payed attention to my "directed boredom" as you like to call it. What I experience, when I relax muscles one by one, is an increase in weight. Not literally, of course, but as I relax my foot, I become more aware of the weight pulling it down into the mattress. I think that is what puts me to sleep. Concentrating on feeling heavy. And incidentally this is a maybe 5-10 minute process, not 30.

Also, it occurred to me that I forgot one of the best remedies possible. Sex has been linked to better sleep. So maybe having sex right before bed would be helpful. If not...ah well... :lol:

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Also, it occurred to me that I forgot one of the best remedies possible. Sex has been linked to better sleep. So maybe having sex right before bed would be helpful. If not...ah well... :confused:

It does, but I've found it has a short "window" of tiredness that you can "wake up" from if you don't fall completely asleep during it. (the window, not the sex!) Sometimes, if I even get up to get a glass of water, then it's enough to snap me out of it. Yes, the classic cliche of "man fall asleep after sex" is true for me.

Anyhow, on the subject of morning tiredness, I forgot a critical detail: I don't experience any of the symptoms if I actually sleep until I wake up naturally (9+ hours, depending). But the trouble with that is that it makes it impossible for me to go to sleep at the same hour the next night. Again, it's like I'm set for 26+ hour days.

Edited by Inspector
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You sure about that? I thought you mentioned earlier that you felt bad symptoms no matter how long you have slept.

No, I just re-read my every post in the thread and I never once said that. I slept in yesterday (first time in a long, long time) and really remembered what it was like to get a full night's sleep.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This may sound a bit oversimplistic, but I think I have solved my morning tiredness problem, and believe it or not, it was on accident. The policy at my work changed and doesnt allow long sleeves to be worn any longer, and that was usually my typical wardrobe. The past week, however, Ive been wearing just the uniform t-shirt, which is a light and well-ventilated shirt. And the entire week Ive felt completely normal in the mornings, no headaches or much tiredness at all. It must be a body temperature or heat problem that was causing the way I felt before, since it seemed to be because of the extra clothing.

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This may sound a bit oversimplistic, but I think I have solved my morning tiredness problem, and believe it or not, it was on accident.

Lucky bastard... :)

If that was your problem then I can understand your non-comprehension of just how systemic my issue is.

I've had some okay weeks following my sleep reset. I am starting to slip a little, though. Not getting to sleep until after 8 and hitting my snooze so I don't wake up until 3:27. I've tried to get to sleep before 6:30 on the "weekends" with some success but I still spend a while lying there; I have to go to bed at 5-something to do so and I only managed to do it once. Consciously relaxing my muscles helps a tiny bit but the overall problem, that I'm not even close to tired at the appropriate time, remains. Just not enough hours in a day...

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