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Yeah...I'm sorta the same way. I don't date objectivist women because they are mostly fat, ugly and butch. I prefer dainty christian women in their sunday dresses.

:dough:

Besides, when the Christian women say "Oh, God!" during sex, at least you know they mean it ;)

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Rational thinking is a choice. All individuals must make their own choice. That choice will have it's rewards and consequences.

Quote Moose from suggested earlier thread "Like I said, it's practically impossible to find someone who will share all of my principles"

It is impossible that two people would value all things the same, or all the same things.

Quote Kevin Delaney from suggested earlier thread: "It's a very bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people, and people fight it in every way imaginable: Romantic love is between equals. And to be "equals" in this context means to be able relate to one another as equals. Not as teacher to student, or as parent to child, but as two complete, mature, independent adults."

Equal in an all inclusive context, does not exist. That is; people are never intellectually equal. A more harsh pill is that: You may, or may not, find your equal as in the context given above. (Ah the Bell Curve ...)

Attempts to compromise, like all actions, lead to results (both short term and long). To sell your "objective value" short is to invite unnecessary punishment. To try to sell high - attempt a fraud, yields no positive return, and won't last.

Another harsh reality is that in a bad environment, where incorrect thinking is promoted, your choices will be equally affected.

There is always fantasy and self love :dough:

quote gnarqtharst from suggested earlier thread: "I believe that we typically fall in love with a person's "sense of life". In our present culture, a person's sense of life is very rarely also expressed in explicit philosophical terms, and sometimes one's sense of life is contrary to one's professed philosophic terms."

Substitute "attracted to" for "in love with" and this is a rational observation. Were any relations lead from there is dependent on values (valuation).

quote gnarqtharst from suggested earlier thread: "On the other hand, I think it's reasonable to desire that a person's positive sense of life becomes integrated with a positive explicit philosophy over time. If it does, great. If it doesn't, also fine, as long as the sense of life remains intact. But if a bad philosophy threatens to corrupt a good sense of life, trouble can arise."

I think there is a better way to explain it, then using the word philosophy, but so be. Incorrect thinking (that which does not align, in complete context, with reality) will lead to the destruction, damage, or alteration of, a positive sense of life. action > result

It is sad to see someone, with a positive sense of life, who has been taught to self destruct.

disclaimer: I am, an independent rogue intellect, claiming no affiliation.

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In addition, many of them have the idea that Objectivism is all or even most of what matters. They are looking for their “Dagny,” and as soon as a reasonably attractive Objectivist woman walks into their lives, they want to take her out—regardless of what her personality and interests are. If things like dancing in goth clubs, talking dirty, and bondage make you uncomfortable, most likely you’re not going to be romantically compatible with a girl who likes those things—no matter how long she’s been an Objectivist. :dough:

I value objectivism but I value rational thinking above all else. If I find rational thinking to conflict with views of objectivism I would not be upset. My problem with my last girlfriend was that she often was not rational.

This sounds like you may have went through something dramatic with an ex-boyfriend who claimed to be an objectivist, I'm sorry if so, but it also sounds like he wasn't very rational. In a way, not being rational conflicts with objectivism. Assuming this is the case, do you think he was truly an objectivist?

Just as a sidenote: My two most down-to-earth male Objectivist friends are both in long-term relationships (one is married) with non-Objectivist women. I think part of the reason they are both successful relationships is that the guys respect their women and don’t go around trying to change them.

My very good friend is married to a non-objectivist. His wife is also Catholic and he is not. But they make it work, and I think they have a successful relationship because, like you said, they respect each other. She also doesn't take it too extremes, so he can deal with it. She doesn't force him to go to church, but on occasions she does.

Still I have my doubts, I'm not sure I could comfortably date someone religious, especially if they were very strict about it. For example if she had to go to Church 3-4 times a week or if she tried to force her views on me. I also find it hard to imagine a future with such a person. What would we do if we had children? Would she force them to be religious? I don't think I could deal with that. I could imagine a successful relationship with someone who claims to be religious or spiritual but doesn't practice heavily.

Edited by Dorian
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Dorian,

Just so you know, Objectivism is completely athiest and not just agnostic.

[url=http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.php?showtopic=3330&pid=102708&st=220&#entry102708]here is a topic on it.

I think you'll find that once you hear the Objectivist position you'll feel a lot more certain on it. :dough:

The best explanation is in OPAR, if you can get ahold of it.

And sorry to hear about your ex. But I've seen that is pretty much to be expected with religious people, unfortunately.

Peter, it depends on what you mean by that. As I said:

(bold added)

It's perfectly fine to start dating a non-Objectivist, but I do not think it will work in the long run unless they become one. Not if you take ideas seriously (and to be an Objectivist, you have to) I appreciate the fact that, since you're gay you have a lot smaller dating pool, but that won't change the reality of this fact. Wishing won't make it so, no matter how unfortunate your juxtaposition, so it is in your self-interest (and the interest of your relationship) to bear this in mind.

Well, first of all, I don't like the "one size fits all" diagnosis you proffer with regards to dating. The mechanics of a relationship and personal judgment are so contextual, I doubt that anyone should be making blanket judgments regarding the success of such things.

Second, I have no expectation that my significant other-- despite being rational-- will become an Objectivist. I think he has an appreciation for Rand, but no more so than Objectivists appreciate Thomas Aquinas. He's certainly not an enemy of Objectivism and I certainly would not entertain the idea of dating anyone who was.

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...The mechanics of a relationship and personal judgment are so contextual, I doubt that anyone should be making blanket judgments regarding the success of such things.

Second, I have no expectation that my significant other-- despite being rational-- will become an Objectivist...

Well, good luck, but you'll excuse me if I am not optimistic about relationships where one party rejects Objectivism. It's not a blanket judgment; it's just the facts.

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Well, good luck, but you'll excuse me if I am not optimistic about relationships where one party rejects Objectivism. It's not a blanket judgment; it's just the facts.

A small comment on this... My girlfriend and I decided that for our one month anniversary we were going to find a book in our selection that we thought the other should read... So now she's about to switch from ignorant of O'ism to rejecting, considering, or accepting O'ism. I think this has potential to make or break this relationship but I also think her sense of life fits really well with Objectivism.

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Well, good luck, but you'll excuse me if I am not optimistic about relationships where one party rejects Objectivism. It's not a blanket judgment; it's just the facts.

Well, first of all, I have invited him to read any (and all) of my collection of Objectivist books. Secondly, he had seen Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life and enjoyed it. I doubt that he is interesting in pursuing the matter. But I wouldn't call it a "rejection" of Objectivism. Perhaps a lack of interest in it. Objectivism isn't for everyone, and as I said before, people don't have to be out and out O'ists to have an appreciation for aspects of it.

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...Objectivism isn't for everyone...

Do you mean that in terms of learning the entire system, or of the philosophy itself? If the latter, it's the equivalent of saying that reason isn't for everyone, as if this is just a minor choice that's perfectly open to one's personal preferences. I take it you don't view Objectivism as fully validated by the facts of reality, since you imply that it's just one of many possible legitimate (i.e. true) choices. Are you suggesting that you're willing to tolerate some degree of irrationality in a romantic partner, or that it's possible to be completely rational and simultaneously reject Objectivism?

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Do you mean that in terms of learning the entire system, or of the philosophy itself? If the latter, it's the equivalent of saying that reason isn't for everyone, as if this is just a minor choice that's perfectly open to one's personal preferences. I take it you don't view Objectivism as fully validated by the facts of reality, since you imply that it's just one of many possible legitimate (i.e. true) choices. Are you suggesting that you're willing to tolerate some degree of irrationality in a romantic partner, or that it's possible to be completely rational and simultaneously reject Objectivism?

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

A small comment on this... My girlfriend and I decided that for our one month anniversary we were going to find a book in our selection that we thought the other should read... So now she's about to switch from ignorant of O'ism to rejecting, considering, or accepting O'ism. I think this has potential to make or break this relationship but I also think her sense of life fits really well with Objectivism.

This must be a very exciting time for you! Good luck!

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I don't think that your partner needs to be an Objectivist in name, or ever have studied the philosophy itself. However, they do need to share your basic premises, such as a belief in the objectivity of reality and the validity of the senses, in order to have a suceesful long-term relationship.

Most normal people are like that, anyway. It's like Ayn Rand has written: all the axioms we build our knowledge upon are inherent in our first instance of sense perception, and the world-view of Galt, d'Anconia and so on is that of normal men, not something that should be unusual. And if you talk to people, you will find that most of them really do believe in the validity of the senses, the objectivity of the world and science, and so on.

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Well as an objectivist male if you don't try dating non objectivist females you pretty much won't be dating anyone. The only objectivist women I have actually met or went on a date with were completely self absorbed and callous, so I tend not to fawn over objectivist women.

I think most deeply held belief systems tend to amplify whatever the kind of person the believer was anyway, so a pejorative selfish jerk adopting Objectivism will still be an even more pejorative selfish jerk but wrap it and try to defend it in terms of objectivism. Of all philosophies Objectivism is definitely the best for living a successful life in a good world, but people are adept at twisting all philosophies to their own ends. Beyond that, I look for rationality or someone who seems favorable to the ideas of a worldview based on rationality. I would date someone who is religious as long as it was not a fundamental aspect of their life, or their religiosity was a very generalized and abstract one, usually just because they were raised that way and had not examined other ideas yet. I have found many atheists to be nihilistic materialistic determinists, which I find much more intolerable than any typical religious expression.

I tend to look for sincerity in a person, a general kindness and respectful attitude of benevolence with regard to other people. Someone who is rude to a waiter, short tempered in traffic, condescending to service people, etc, is not someone I think I would share a general sense of life with. I also tend to look for a diversity of interests which reflect a strong adherence to their own interests and ideals. There are too many interesting things in life to not be pulled by competing interests, if someone has few hobbies beyond shopping for the latest fashionable purse and drinking and partying I would likely not find a successful long term relationship with her.

General things that will tempt me to learn more about a woman or try to go on a date with her would be if she reads a lot, is interested in science AND something not obviously scientific (Art, Music, etc since although physics and mechanical engineering a probably my deepest passions, I despise that scientific nihilism that makes people who are interested in science not appreciate anything creative) generally doesn’t care about superficial crap, and to use a pop pysch term knows herself well. Anytime I peruse online profiles and see only two lines “loves to travel, must make me laugh” I move quickly on. If you write a book length profile about your passions and interests, I’m interested.

I would also like someone who has interests different than mine, but whose core values are similar. I’d love to share and learn and grow with that person, not just learn OR teach. I also hate wishy washyness and indecisiveness

Overall though I agree with most of what inspector has said, I am not looking to go on dates for entertainment but because I am seeking to meet someone to share a lifelong joy with, so I tend to ask lots of questions and try to dig deep into someone’s fundamental values. But like him (it seems) I am patient about it, it certainly isn’t anything like an interrogation, and I also expect the woman to be equally interested in me or my values and ask me some questions. I have gone out with women that profess to like me, but stare dumbly when a conversation lulls and after a lead in to a question. They are so self absorbed they don’t even know how to get to know someone, oh but they love it when I ask a million questions!

Remember though that people with similiar values can still both be logical and rational yet hold entirely different opinions if their information sets are different, so don't discount someone so quickly because you disagree with them about something, you may find that you have not learned everything they have on that subject or vice versa.

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Well as an objectivist male if you don't try dating non objectivist females you pretty much won't be dating anyone. The only objectivist women I have actually met or went on a date with were completely self absorbed and callous, so I tend not to fawn over objectivist women.

:thumbsup:

I can definitely see this situation being most probable.

Someone who is rude to a waiter, short tempered in traffic, condescending to service people, etc, is not someone I think I would share a general sense of life with.

Sounds like my last girlfriend. :dough:

Your post has made me sad, hehe.

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Who here has an O'ist significant other? If you do, how did you meet? If you do (or even if you don't), would you date someone who wasn't O'ist?

Here is my example of an ObJ oriented and non obj oriented dating scenerio. A woman wants to go shopping at the mall and wants her BF to go with her. She says this is a great way to spend time together. He doesn't like going to the mall and would rather go play basketball with his friends.

Man 1 is seen sitting outside the dressing room of the gap looking miserable.

Man 2 is playing basketball with his friends.

Man 1 is dating a typical non obj woman who thinks sacrifice = love.

Man 2 is dating an obj woman who would be insulted by a man spending time with her as a sacrifice.

I have dated almost all non obj men because I had many hobbies and interests in common with them but everything always boiled down to the above issue. My bf now is an objectivist and its great because I don't have to explain why I won't sacrifice. We both act in our own best interest. He doesn't expect me to go couples bowling or some unappealing group consensus activity like that.

We met on the computer playing Name that tune, since we both love music. I had not even heard of AR then so I didn't know what an obj was. I liked him because His intelligence is extremely attractive to me. He liked all the things about me and valued the things I liked about myself. The qualities people complained about, he appreciated which is the objectivist nature I embodied, sense of life , etc.

Although we only have a handful of hobbies we do together, we respect each other and share the same values.

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Well as an objectivist male if you don't try dating non objectivist females you pretty much won't be dating anyone. The only objectivist women I have actually met or went on a date with were completely self absorbed and callous, so I tend not to fawn over objectivist women.

I'm not sure what you mean by "self-absorbed", which seems like an anti-concept, but I can't say I share your experience of O'ist women being callous. I can't recall meeting a single one who gave me that impression -- quite the opposite, actually. Perhaps you've run into a bad bunch (I'm hoping you didn't come to this conclusion based on one or two encounters).

As far as dating Objectivists, I think it's important to keep in mind that the label may or may not be accurate. The fact that a person professes admiration of Ayn Rand or even identifies themself explicitly as an Objectivist in no way guarantees they actually have a solid understanding of the philosophy, or even that they're fully rational. But it's certainly a good sign. :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

To summarize whats probably already been said, and throw in my own experiences:

I've dated both Objectivist and non-Objectivst men. The conclusions I've derived from both are the following. Non-Objectivists might be mostly rational in some aspect of their lives, such as their career or passion for a particular subject, but if they do not either implicity follow the philosophy in all realms of life or desire to learn more about it then a long-term relationship will be un-fulfilling for you. However, this doesn't mean one should disclude dating them, but keep in mind the imbalance when progressing further with the relationship. They must make the choice to learn about the philosophy on their own; you can only lead by example.

While dating Objectivists is nice, because you both agree on the fundamentals, there are still other traits of a romantic partnership that may get in the way of you both having a successful relationship (e.g. you both maybe uncompromising when it comes to your career ambitions, grow apart over time or distance, have differening senses of humor and shared values, etc.). Also if someone truly wants to become an Objectivist but isnt yet, then it will take them sometime to undo their previous epistemology. In this case, its important to judge them based on this context, and be patient with them if you believe the person is worth pursuing.

In either case its important to recognize what you want out of the relationship, and what you are looking for. The best test is using all the virtues when evaluating someone new. In my short life time, I've discovered that any relationship (romantic or otherwise) should be about spending time with an intellectual and spiritual equal. And most importantly be optimistic and benevolent :worry:

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  • 1 year later...

My wife doesn't refer to herself as an Objectivist and has not yet read any Ayn Rand. But I would have to describe her as at least a potential Objectivist, or maybe a future Objectivist. She is an ardent supporter of laissez-faire capitalism, and holds the fundamental tenets of individualism. Now if I could get her to pick up Atlas Shrugged we would be in business!

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Ships passing in the night, really. We met at an Objectivist party in Dallas while she was passing through down to Houston for the holidays. We hit it off and started chatting, and eventually started flying back and forth, and now I'm all moved in with her.

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Some happy stories:

Dan Edge meets Kelly Koenig.

Love at First Sight

Dan thinks Kelly is hot.

Initial Sexual Attraction

Dan moves to the NYC-area to be with Kelly.

Banner Year

And Finally,

Introducing Dan and Kelly Edge!

--Dan Edge

Edited by dan_edge
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  • 3 months later...

what does everyone think about dating an Objectivist that doesn't know they are? myself, i consider it even more impressive to have arrived at Rand's conclusions independently without having read her. granted, i know the philosophical terminology that goes along with my thoughts and perhaps have a clearer understanding of how it is all connected, but i don't think that's absolutely necessary. her philosophy is entirely logical, so it is not surprising to me that a rational person might get there without assistance, and it's more than a little encouraging. plus, having all the correct ideas already established, it's understandable that that person might not be interested in reading a lot material that states it in more complicated ways. there are people for whom philosophy is not a passion, and my boyfriend is one of them. the guy i am dating now agrees with me on every issue i consider to be important. we have the same economic and political opinions, the same sense of life (as best it is possible to judge), and value the same qualities. we both believe the only good reason to be in a relationship is a selfish one, for your own enjoyment, or it had better be ended, and we don't ask one another to make sacrifices. he just doesn't understand why i am so interested in putting a label on and studying what he has always considered to be obvious, whereas i came from a christian background and consider the ground rand managed to cover for me infinitely significant. it's hard to find the words to explain to him why i am so obsessed with this writer, except to say that i know if he read it he would understand why i love it, and that the feeling i get from reading AS is the same as the sound of his favorite triumphant music. i still have trouble though explaining just exactly what Objectivism is in layman's terms, briefly. i spend time on objectivist forums and continue reading rand's books. how important is it to be able to share that part of it? my conclusion so far is not very or not at all. and not having to be limited to self-proclaimed objectivists widens the field quite a bit too.

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I would tell him that reading Ayn Rand's work can help him make some very important ideas explicit and perhaps make him aware of ideas he has not yet considered. Also explain to him how these ideas have helped your life, so that maybe he will get a better idea of the value of these ideas, and that by learning more about Objecticism he may also gain some important tools to further his own life. If you can make him see the value of Ayn Rand's philosophy he should be more inclined to read her work.

Then of course I see no reason to "limit" yourself to only having Objectivist significant others. I think there are two fundamental questions that need to be answered; do you love that person, and why do you love him/her? If you do, and if you have good reasons for doing so, then that's all there really is to it. The key here is to find someone who is of the highest value to you and your life.

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My husband and I married a few years before either of us discovered Objectivism.

3 years after stumbling upon the philosophy - I can honestly say that if anything happened to him, if I decided to pursue another relationship, I would seek out a guy that if he wasn't an Objectivist, was atleast Objectivist friendly. I say IF because I cannot imagine another person could exist - Objectivist or otherwise- that I would have so much in common with!

I think this is an interesting question. But I think it is possible to find someone that shares the same - or most of the same - values as you that may not necessarily be an Objectivist. There are a lot of people out there in the world that are reasonable and rational without ever picking up Ayn Rand's books. My husband was one. When he studied the philosophy, there were just a few things that he hadn't already come to the same conclusion on his own.

Bottom line: whatever works for you. The local Objectivist group I attend, we have friends and family members/spouses that come that are not necessarily Objectivists, but they respect their counterpart enough to spend time with them there.

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My best friend and husband is also a student of Objectivism. We met when I was 24. He walked into the door of the studio where I worked and the rest was history as they say. I had just started reading AS, he was already fully involved in this philosophy, so it was just a natural event for us to become a pair. He so surpassed all the other men that I had dated before, there was no question in my mind from day one that he would be the one to spend my life with.

We have been married now for a long time and getting old together, it has been great to grow this deep love we have for each other. All our values are the same, we are both artists, working in different fields, we both need to use the same principles in our creative work. We are twins in thought and action. We bounce ideas off of each other, we work often together on projects, we both work from home, so we are together almost always. We have shaped each other in many ways but stayed strong as individuals. We are not dependent on each other, but rather enjoy this journey through life together.

I would not have it any other way, with this agreement we have at the fundamentals of our thoughts comes a wonderful calm and contentment. I am so very glad that I found him at that rather young age. We laugh together a lot, we enjoy each others company, we have such a deep understanding, that only with a glance or a slight movement of the head can we communicate. Sometimes it is almost unreal how much we are alike. I just love him :lol:

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