kufa Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 This is my theory. If, while I'm young and my immune system is strong, I don't take any particular percautions against fighting germs(ie not washing hands before meals, not showering every night, using the 5 second rule, and not using toilet seat covers), my immune system will get stronger and I will be less likely to get sick in old age. I have basically been following my theory all my life. People I know who carry disenfectant in their pocket always seem to get sick. I am almost never sick. the last time I had the flu was two years ago, while I can't remember the last time I had a head cold. I have had some pretty bizzare medical conditions (they make wonderful stories), but they had nothing to do with my immune system, most of them were viruses. I am wondering if there is any actual science behind my logic, and if so, where. Any thoughts on my theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 This is my theory. If, while I'm young and my immune system is strong, I don't take any particular percautions against fighting germs(ie not washing hands before meals, not showering every night, using the 5 second rule, and not using toilet seat covers), my immune system will get stronger and I will be less likely to get sick in old age. I have basically been following my theory all my life. People I know who carry disenfectant in their pocket always seem to get sick. I am almost never sick. the last time I had the flu was two years ago, while I can't remember the last time I had a head cold. I have had some pretty bizzare medical conditions (they make wonderful stories), but they had nothing to do with my immune system, most of them were viruses. I am wondering if there is any actual science behind my logic, and if so, where. Any thoughts on my theory? Well, one thing is that acquired immunity to diseases, which is a big part of your immune system, works through memory cells. Now the thing is, while these cells have very long lifetimes, their numbers do dwindle over time. If you have these memory cells for a certain disease agent (pathogen), then getting infected by that disease agent will likely not even make you sick. What it does do, however, is trigger another immune response that is much stronger than the response to the initial infection. I'm pretty sure that this, in turn, will cause some of these cells to turn into memory cells which will replenish their numbers. If, on the other hand, you don't get reinfected for years, then at some point you will lose the acquired immunity, because there will be so few of these memory cells around that the advantage they give you is almost negligible. I kind of think of it as exercising. If you try to make sure that your body never has to do any sort of physical activity by just preventing whatever would cause you to do that, your fitness will get worse. I think in essence what you are doing is a good thing, you just have to find a healthy balance between being too cleanly and being really unhygienic. As for the second, I think the main reason why not many people currently die of all sorts of nasty diseases related to hygiene is due to all sorts of technological advances in drinking water supplies, etc. As long as you eat well and don't overtax your body in other ways (by not getting enough sleep, being chronically over-stressed) I'm pretty sure your body can handle most diseases that come your way. And if you do get infected by something that is too strong for your body's defenses to handle, then you can always just get some antibiotics like those other people Oh, there is one other thing related to this. A very large part of your immune system is based around the idea of not allowing pathogens into your body. A large part of this barrier is your skin. One reason why your skin is an effective barrier is because of the acidity of your skin, which is lower than most organisms prefer. By washing yourself too much, you can undermine this natural barrier. Another part of your skin's defenses is that the surface is slightly fatty (I can't recall what that stuff is called in English). Washing will also remove this layer, leaving your skin in a more vulnerable condition. I'd say that it's a good method as long as you don't start smelling very badly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 There in a minor flaw in your theory, but as an alternative to obsessiveness about germs, it's a okay plan. If you're old enough to type, then you're not in that birth-to-toddler period when you can get sick enough to die from ordinary germs. Ordinary germs aren't gonna hurt you, but I would not recommend being a sanitation-slob if there's an outbreak of cholera, smallpox, ebola, or black death. On the other hand, if you have an outbreak of malaria in your neighborhood, I wouldn't worry about washing up because it's not transmitted that way. But I would drain the swamp in the back yard, and shop for prophylaxis. I also would not get too lovey-dovey with a person suffering from a rollicking case of flesh-eating bacteria. If you can manage to avoid extreme disease contexts and if you're not suffering from a serious immune system disorder, ordinary germs are harmless. The current trendy obsession over germs results from abnormal germs creeping into our environment, and people dying from strains of staph that resist antibiotics or abnormally virulent E. coli strains. The way to avoid death by E. coli is to avoid hippie food, like organic river-washed radish sprout juice. Your only safe bet with food is to buy from major profit-making international corporations, who are good at producing safe, clean food. There are good reasons to avoid gratuitous use of antibiotics, because they are not 100% effective and therefore, in the long run, increase the percentage of bacteria that are unaffected by current drugs. In the short run, you using antibiotics probably won't increase your chances of dying this year or in the next ten years. On the other hand, it probably also won't help prevent any illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonsays Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 not washing hands before meals, not showering every night, using the 5 second rule, and not using toilet seat covers I think your theory stinks! Literally. Seriously, though, why would you want to not shower every day? I think that's disgusting. I'm assuming you don't have a girl friend or socialise very often! Also, the people carrying around disinfectant have probably always been sick as a result of their genetics and started carrying it around as a result. So their disinfectant is a symptom but not a cause of their illness. Similarly, your genetics have resulted in you not getting sick, and your "symptom" is your belief in not washing. Not washing has not caused you not to get sick. So basically I am saying that because an action is correlated with an effect, does not mean that it has caused this effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Seriously, though, why would you want to not shower every day? I think that's disgusting. I'm assuming you don't have a girl friend or socialise very often!Maybe she isn't a greasy or smelly person. Some people don't exude filth all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonsays Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Maybe she isn't a greasy or smelly person. Some people don't exude filth all the time. Who does "exude filth"? No one I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Who does "exude filth"? No one I know. I know a couple of guys that sweat excessively and have so much body hair that they tend to get a bit whiffy if they haven't showered in the past few hours. On the converse, some people don't have strong body odors and they may have dry skin that doesn't do well if you shower every day. I shower in the morning and I wash my hands fairly often (I have to, I work in a tissue bank) and my skin is perpetually dry, scaly, and cracked, with dozens of small cuts that get infected and itch . . . it's not pleasant. And I'll go through 2-3 big bottles of lotion a month. I know that most blacks can't wash their hair every day (sometimes once a month is too often) because it strips out the natural oils too badly. I find obsession with germs to be somewhat ridiculous. I mean, if you do have a defective immune system, okay, but I just don't have the energy to bleach every inch of my house and clothing every week. I'm rarely sick and when I am it doesn't last very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) I recently read a study that showed a lot of the cause of why people who move to America or other modern countries have children who are so much bigger and taller than them. Basically, you have a lot of growth spurts as a child and teenager; getting sick or starved cuts them short. Disease and filth literally stunt your growth. So much for "that which does not kill me makes me stronger." Edited February 10, 2007 by Inspector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Who does "exude filth"? No one I know.So much the better for me. I'm just saying that Ms. Kufa is not necessarily being disgusting by not showering every day. I'm well acquainted with a person who does not need to shower daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessa36 Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 This is my theory. If, while I'm young and my immune system is strong, I don't take any particular percautions against fighting germs(ie not washing hands before meals, not showering every night, using the 5 second rule, and not using toilet seat covers), my immune system will get stronger and I will be less likely to get sick in old age. I have basically been following my theory all my life. People I know who carry disenfectant in their pocket always seem to get sick. I am almost never sick. the last time I had the flu was two years ago, while I can't remember the last time I had a head cold. I have had some pretty bizzare medical conditions (they make wonderful stories), but they had nothing to do with my immune system, most of them were viruses. I am wondering if there is any actual science behind my logic, and if so, where. Any thoughts on my theory? Women who breast feed their babies, pass along their immunity to germs to their infants . This helps during that early 0-1 year period. My non technical belief is to keep the body strong, healthy and stress free. I do this through diet and exercise. People I know who get sick a lot are generally unhealthy to begin with. They either smoke or eat junk food and never exercise. They are run down, stressed out, always have head aches, and tend to be overwhelmed by life. I nearly never get sick, last flu was 8 years ago when i worked at a medical facility, never get headaches, dont take aspirin or advil if i did get one preferring to drink more water and take a walk. I never washed my hands before a meal ever in my life...I only have a 3 second rule... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I never washed my hands before a meal ever in my life...I only have a 3 second rule... If you people worked in the food service industry, and acted like this, you should be thrown in jail. Tell me you at least wash your hands after you go to the bathroom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aequalsa Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 If you people worked in the food service industry, and acted like this, you should be thrown in jail. Tell me you at least wash your hands after you go to the bathroom! ...O-C-D-1-2-3-O-C-D-1-2-3... I share the belief that sickness is probably more tied to unhealthy diets, excercise, and stress managment then to germs. I seem to remember a study regarding counter cleaners like 409, being unwise because they only get 99.9% of the germs and help increase the virility of the surviving bacteria strains that develop resistence to it. So it might work the other way, you may just be in the process of giving yourself the superflu as you immunize yourself against all of the others. I wonder if there are any studies of grammer or day school teachers developing better or worse resistences to things?? They get hyper-exposed to all kinds of nasty stuff, but as I understand, are only very sick the first year of employment, after which they do seem to develop some immunity t it. This is only hearsay, but it seems reasonable. Might be a good place to look for research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 I share the belief that sickness is probably more tied to unhealthy diets, excercise, and stress managment then to germs. There is a small truth to this, but you guys are running with it way, way too much. Sickness is caused by germs, period. Eating things off the floor is bad. Washing your hands before eating and after using the toilet is good. Superbugs are caused by people who are crazy obsessive with antibacterials, not by ordinary sanitation. Antibiotic pills should only be used by those who are actually dignosed with a bacterial illness. Hippie organic food should be avoided at all costs; the crap is swimming with E. Coli. For food preparation and handling all surfaces that touch food should be sanitized and nothing should ever touch the floor. If you don't know what cross-contamination is, I suggest you read up on it. It was pseudoscience that was responsible for the irresponsible use of antibacterials, and it is pseudoscience that is responsible for the "anything goes" crap that I'm seeing here. The solution to bad pseudoscience isn't to abandon science and say germs are our friends; it is to get good science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessa36 Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 If you people worked in the food service industry, and acted like this, you should be thrown in jail. Tell me you at least wash your hands after you go to the bathroom! I didn't say I never wash my hands. I said I never washed my hands before eating just because i was going to eat, thinking i would be passing germs into my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 I didn't say I never wash my hands. I said I never washed my hands before eating just because i was going to eat, thinking i would be passing germs into my system. Well, it's true that you will pass the germs into your system if you have germs on your hands and you touch your food before you eat it. From a pathological standpoint, this is known as "asking for it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Well, it's true that you will pass the germs into your system if you have germs on your hands and you touch your food before you eat it. From a pathological standpoint, this is known as "asking for it." But with a normal immune system, you can easily handle that and not get sick by doing it. I mean, if she was diagnosed with food poisoning on a weekly basis I would say you have a point, but how do you explain the fact that she doesn't get sick much while doing what she does? That doesn't seem to make sense when using your reasoning. And as I explained in my earlier post in this thread, a large part of acquired immunity to diseases depends on getting infected regularly. It is important to exercise your immune system regularly and trying to prevent your body from coming into contact with germs is counterproductive in this respect. Of course that depends on what kind of pathogens you have wandering around your neighborhood, but normal bacteria are pretty harmless for our body. Like David said, if there is an outbreak of Black Death in your neighborhood I would also pay some more attention to stuff like that, but in a normal situation these germs are extremely rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 how do you explain the fact that she doesn't get sick much while doing what she does? It depends entirely on what you have touched before eating the food. You don't even have to touch what you eat; you can pass pathogens into your system simply by scratching your face or rubbing your eyes. Personally, I don't keep a memorized list of everything I've touched so I just assume wash my hands before eating. As for your idea that the immune system should be "exercised," well, I'm just trying hard not to laugh. Immune system atrophy type conditions in genetically normal individuals are a result of seriously abusive oversterilization techniques. To suggest that people should deliberately be unhygenic may be popular with the homeopathic crowd (read: barking pseudoscientific lunatics), but isn't recommended by actual scientific-minded not-crazy doctors. There is a way of stimulating the immune system to adapt (i.e. "exercise" it)... it's called vaccination. If you doubt this, then by all means act on your premise: touch your poop and then eat with your hands. See how much "stronger" that makes you. Sanitation is one of the key developments of western civilization. Peel back the surface of the attacks on it, and you find the usual suspects of the anti-reason, anti-man, anti-western-medicine crowd. Please do not be taken in by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 As for your idea that the immune system should be "exercised," well, I'm just trying hard not to laugh. Immune system atrophy type conditions in genetically normal individuals are a result of seriously abusive oversterilization techniques. To suggest that people should deliberately be unhygenic may be popular with the homeopathic crowd (read: barking pseudoscientific lunatics), but isn't recommended by actual scientific-minded not-crazy doctors. There is a way of stimulating the immune system to adapt (i.e. "exercise" it)... it's called vaccination. Getting some germs into your system once in a while serves the exact same purpose vaccination does. Besides, the VAST majority of acquired immunity is built up through your lifetime by your own immune system. You only get vaccinated against a handful of the more dangerous diseases. If you doubt this, then by all means act on your premise: touch your poop and then eat with your hands. See how much "stronger" that makes you. Sanitation is one of the key developments of western civilization. Peel back the surface of the attacks on it, and you find the usual suspects of the anti-reason, anti-man, anti-western-medicine crowd. Please do not be taken in by them. Look, obviously in a situation like that I'd wash my hands. There's a difference between never washing yourself and only doing it when you have a good reason to. Unless you live in a very dirty house, I don't see any reason why you should wash your hands before dinner if you haven't done anything particularly unhygienic beforehand. Most people don't have immune system disorders that make them particularly sensitive to germs. Being overly sensitive about hygiene doesn't really help your health any in those situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Getting some germs into your system once in a while serves the exact same purpose vaccination does. News flash: germs are everywhere. You don't need to help them along. There's a difference between never washing yourself and only doing it when you have a good reason to."You're about to eat" is a good reason in my book. Unless you live in a very dirty house, I don't see any reason why you should wash your hands before dinner if you haven't done anything particularly unhygienic beforehand. How the hell do you know what is on everything you've touched since you last washed your hands? What is it with the not washing? Is this a european thing? Being overly sensitive about hygiene doesn't really help your health any in those situations. You have a positively warped idea of what "overly sensitive about hygiene" means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 (edited) You have a positively warped idea of what "overly sensitive about hygiene" means. But the thing is that if what you were saying was true, there should be consequences to the way I am approaching it. How do you explain the fact that I am in good health even though I am continually taunting disease? That has to be at least a strange occurrence from your position. Edited February 11, 2007 by Maarten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 But the thing is that if what you were saying was true, there should be consequences to the way I am approaching it. How do you explain the fact that I am in good health even though I am continually taunting disease? That has to be at least a strange occurrence from your position. Not really. Sooner or later, the loaded chamber will swing around for you. Or you could be a genetic freak who just doesn't get sick. Really, I don't know you from Adam, so your individual story where I don't really have the full detail doesn't sway the, you know, scientific fact of pathology and hygene. My wife's in med school and I get to hear about how pathology works all the time from actual doctors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Not really. Sooner or later, the loaded chamber will swing around for you. Or you could be a genetic freak who just doesn't get sick. Or you could be wrong and the things I am doing make me less likely to get sick. Most of my run-ins with illnesses are due to viruses, and those diseases generally don't have very much to do with proper hand-washing. Also, even from the limited people who replied in this thread there are some others who report more or less the same things I am saying. Really, I don't know you from Adam, so your individual story where I don't really have the full detail doesn't sway the, you know, scientific fact of pathology and hygene. My wife's in med school and I get to hear about how pathology works all the time from actual doctors. And what do you suppose my views on this are based on? Nightly communions with the Spirits of the Earth? Immunology is pretty closely related to my field of study. I also enjoy studying it a lot, so I spent quite a lot more time than most of my fellow students reading books on the subject. My views on this are consistent with the facts as far as I can tell. Besides, I am not at all advocating an all-out war on hygiene. I just disagree with you on what constitutes the optimal amount of hygiene. Hygiene is only good insofar as it furthers your life. If being more hygienic wouldn't give more health benefits, then why bother going that extra length? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 You have a positively warped idea of what "overly sensitive about hygiene" means. Do you even LISTEN to what other people say before you run off half-cocked and accuse them of being warped and eating their own shit?! No one is advocating rolling around in filth. They are reacting against the prevailing view (and it is VERY COMMON) that every damn thing that you own should be sterilized and handled with gloves and you are some kind of freak for not doing so. THAT is over-use of antibiotics and germicides, which YOU YOURSELF do not advocate, thank you. I know people that think I'm insane because I drink TAP WATER. I think two dollars a bottle for the eight or nine bottles of distilled water I'd drink every day is more than I can possibly afford. If I lived somewhere with nasty tap water I might invest in something like a Brita filter. Germs don't live that long on surfaces, especially if they're dry surfaces . . . an hour at most and frequently as little as ten minutes. The disease-causing potential of the germs also decreases as the population density decreases. The most dangerous tend to be the most fragile, as well. This is why you can't catch Hepatitis C from a toilet seat . . . but you can get Hepatitis B or A. However, the only way to kill them for sure (apart from just waiting) is to pour alcohol on the toilet seat and set it on fire. How do I know all this stuff? I work in a tissue bank where we have to maintain a sterile field and do all sorts of culturing etc. We culture thousands of donors a year (that's dead people, cut into bits and frozen) and we throw out very few of them due to the presence of harmful microbes (usually Clostridium). Plus, people stick themselves with sharp objects covered in donor yuck, on average, twice a month. We've been in operation twenty years and we have NEVER had a case of someone developing an illness because of a needle-stick. NEVER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Do you even LISTEN to what other people say before you run off half-cocked and accuse them of being warped and eating their own shit?! No one is advocating rolling around in filth. I suggest it is you who give it another read. The position I am arguing against is: not washing one's hands before eating, and also eating food off the floor as a deliberate effort to expose oneself to more germs because this will supposedly "exercise" you immune system and make you less sick overall. To say that anything less than this (deliberately exposing oneself to filth) is being "overly sensitive about hygiene" (his exact words) is definitely a "warped idea of what 'overly sensitive about hygiene' means." (my exact words) Have another look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessa36 Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) Well, it's true that you will pass the germs into your system if you have germs on your hands and you touch your food before you eat it. From a pathological standpoint, this is known as "asking for it." hee hee, i find your answer amusing. My hands go everywhere a normal persons hands would go and it doesn't enter my mind that I could be contaminated by something in my daily environment. Are you really that worried about catching something? It would be ridiculous to say I have just been lucky. I don't get sick. I never don't feel well, I never get run down. I have never taken medication for any symptoms, ever (beside, i don't have any symptoms of anything) I never go to the doctors, I never take aspirin or antibiotics. I do take vitamins. I eat organic food. People who don't want to be sick should spend their medical budget at a health spa instead of on an insurance premium. Doctors probably would recommend washing your hands since they are dealing with sick people in THEIR everyday environment. Edited February 13, 2007 by Alessa36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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