Pizza Delivery

[DavidOdden]

If I refuse to deliver to a house, then I get fired.

Can I assume that this is a practical joke or something? That is, these are not serious questions and arguments that you're advancing, are they? For example, you advocate that you deserve the unearned, that violating another person's rights would be moral, that the world owes you a living, that your problems with your employer are the moral responsibility of others.

I'm hoping that you'll explain yourself in your next post.

[D'kian]

One time several graduate students and I went to a Ryan's (one of those large family steakhouse buffets) but we all forgot to tip the waitress. It was an embarassing moment. Nevertheless, we called up the restaurant and received her name so that we could mail her a check. This practice is probably more difficult to do with delivery men, but perhaps you can try?

I could.

BTW, one time in highschool we stopped by a taco stand for lunch, and forgot to pay the bill. The embarrassing part was that only I and one other kid thought we should go back and pay. The rest were okay with having accidentally stolen a meal.

[Thales]

Its not theft of my time and money when customers stiff me?

Don't you get a flat wage from your employer and then tips on top of that?

[softwareNerd]

Don't you get a flat wage from your employer and then tips on top of that?

I think he's saying that he does a little over 3 deliveries an hour and gets paid about $3 directly from the business. When he adds tips in, it works out to about $10-15 an hour. So, tips are a substantial portion.

No doubt the the fixed "base payment" is so low because everyone knows tips would make up the difference. Arguably, if more people tipped, and if people tipped more, pizza companies might reduce the base amount further. It's reasonable to suppose that the current payment takes into account the fact that some people do not tip. More precisely, the current base-rate probably takes into account the average tip, the number of deliveries per hour, the price of gas, and the other wage-rates in the area.

[BaseballGenius]

Your boss might be concerened about rapid turnover. That would depend on how hard it is to replace someone in your job. If it takes days or weeks, he shoudl care about your tips, and should decline business with non-tippers (it costs him money if he's short of help for a significant period of time). Otherwise, no.

Most people arent going to quit if they get stiffed a few times a night. But like I said earlier, personally I dont know of more than one or two serial stiffers. They tend to be fresh faces always. The people who consisently order from us do leave a tip.

[BaseballGenius]

For example, you advocate that you deserve the unearned,

Actually I was advocating deserving the earned, but you are disagreeing with my earlier comments on what exactly is earned. I changed views on this topic, but earlier I thought I had earned a tip because of the good service I provided. I still think Ive earned a tip, but I wont steal their money to get it.

that violating another person's rights would be moral,

I was just checking.

that the world owes you a living,

Not the entire world, just the people who ask for my services. Since it is well known in this society that a tip is to pay for services such as deliveries or waitressing, the customer should feel obligated to do so. If the employers gave those employees much higher wages themselves because tips werent expected, then the cost of their products would also go up. So, logically one could figure out that since the cost of their products are lower because lower wages are paid to certain employees who are expected to get tips to compensate the rest of their wages, that one should feel obligated to leave a tip.

that your problems with your employer are the moral responsibility of others.

What problems?

[BaseballGenius]

No doubt the the fixed "base payment" is so low because everyone knows tips would make up the difference. Arguably, if more people tipped, and if people tipped more, pizza companies might reduce the base amount further.

They might if there were no minimum wage laws. Every pizza place Ive worked at or have known pays drivers minimum wage($6.15 in Montana). That means every time the minimum wage gets increased(possibly a crapload in the next few years), then I will essentially be getting that amount too from the employer. Thats another flaw with the minimum wage laws. Even the jobs that are known to receive most their wages from tips still get that minimum wage increase. But since that meant the company had to pay a lot more wages with the recent wage increase, it also meant most peoples hours were cut too, prices went up, and employees dont get nearly as good of discounts.

As a side note, I wonder if tips will become non-existent when the minimum wage gets near $9-10 an hour.

It's reasonable to suppose that the current payment takes into account the fact that some people do not tip. More precisely, the current base-rate probably takes into account the average tip, the number of deliveries per hour, the price of gas, and the other wage-rates in the area.

Thats how it would operate in a free society.

[Moebius]

Tipping is optional. This is a well understood fact in this society. Case closed.

Don't tell that you actually thought that people were required to tip when you took the delivery job. If you want to complain about having to pay for your own gas, complain to your employers, not the customers. When a customer buys a pizza, he's told how much the price is. When a customer gives you a tip, it's a charity or a token of appreciation, not an obligation.

I never understood the whole point of the tip system anyway. It's not something that's commonly practiced for the majority of the world. If a pizza place had no delivery charge for instance, it's not like I get a dollar off my pizza if I went to pick it up myself - despite the fact that I'm risking myself in traffic to pick it up.

By the way I just got a job as a stock broker. And when my clients call me up asking me to place an order, I don't expect a tip, despite the fact that I'm providing a service. To me it's pretty much the same concept.

[BaseballGenius]

I think he's saying that he does a little over 3 deliveries an hour and gets paid about $3 directly from the business. When he adds tips in, it works out to about $10-15 an hour. So, tips are a substantial portion.

No doubt the the fixed "base payment" is so low because everyone knows tips would make up the difference. Arguably, if more people tipped, and if people tipped more, pizza companies might reduce the base amount further. It's reasonable to suppose that the current payment takes into account the fact that some people do not tip. More precisely, the current base-rate probably takes into account the average tip, the number of deliveries per hour, the price of gas, and the other wage-rates in the area.

I didnt realize this before, but youre talking about the delivery charge, arent you?

And yeah, youre right. At the place I work(and other major corporations), the delivery charge flucuates slightly due to the price of gas.

[DavidOdden]

Not the entire world, just the people who ask for my services. Since it is well known in this society that a tip is to pay for services such as deliveries or waitressing, the customer should feel obligated to do so.

It is also well known that tips are paid for noteworthy performance of service that is of sufficient value to the customer; hence waitresses, and in some cases, cab drivers. You aren't providing noteworthy service, so you haven't earned the tip. Not all waitresses deserve tips, either: it depends on what level of service they have really performed, that is, have then done something where they deserve a tip. Only about 30% of waitresses in my experience do deserve tips, and I've never encountered a delivery guy who comes even close to "deserving" a tip.

If the employers gave those employees much higher wages themselves because tips werent expected, then the cost of their products would also go up.

So why don't you quite you delivery job and take a better-paying job? Assuming that the labor market in your town is so tight that you couldn't be replaced in a New York minute, the threat to walk could be what it takes for you to get that much-deserved raise from the boss.

So, logically one could figure out that since the cost of their products are lower because lower wages are paid to certain employees who are expected to get tips to compensate the rest of their wages, that one should feel obligated to leave a tip.

Or, logically, one could figure out that it's imaginable for every last soul in town to demand luxury wages for delivering pizza, but it's unlikely, so if you were to quit your pizza job, someone else would take your place, and there would be no need to pay more money for the pizza.

What problems?

That you think you deserve more money for the service that you provide to your employer (that's who you're providing the service to). He disagrees, it would seem.

[FeatherFall]

What place do you work at?

Dominos

... I've never encountered a delivery guy who comes even close to "deserving" a tip.

Not even close?

Have you ever ordered food during a blizzard? During rush hour? From a house with beige siding and beige numbers? From a place that's difficult to get to, like a kiosk in a large mall? In a city like phoenix where car accidents are more likely? From a rough part of town? At any time when or place where conditions make moving between your location to the source undesirable? The delivery guy never came with extra napkins, parmesan and crushed red pepper when you needed them, even though you didn't ask? He never got there exceptionally early, like 18 minutes after you ordered?

How many times have you ordered food?

[DavidOdden]

Not even close?

Nope. None of what you're describing is "special service", it's either part of the job, or not something I'd want (got plenty of napkins and red pepper at home). I might consider it if I ordered pizza during a monster snowstorm and the guy got there on time, but under those conditions, I probably wouldn't order pizza anyhow.

[softwareNerd]

None of what you're describing is "special service", it's either part of the job, or not something I'd want...

Nevertheless, the current system of wages in pizza-delivery and in restaurants (at least in the US) is based on an assumption of a some average tip being paid for average service.

[Inspector]

Nevertheless, the current system of wages in pizza-delivery and in restaurants (at least in the US) is based on an assumption of a some average tip being paid for average service.

Yes, although it makes my brain hurt, it is the case.

[DavidOdden]

Nevertheless, the current system of wages in pizza-delivery and in restaurants (at least in the US) is based on an assumption of a some average tip being paid for average service.

Well, I grant that, but that doesn't create an obligation on me. The implication is that somehow these people aren't paid "enough", so then, I'd like to know, how much is "enough"? How am I supposed to know who I have an obligation to tip? Bartenders? UPS guys? The mailman? A paperboy? Grocery store clerks? Checkout guy at the Auto Zone? My son's French teacher? When do we get to say, enough is enough?

I find the business of mindless tipping out of a sense of obligation to be utterly repulsive. When a person does actually perform superlatively, that fact should be recognised, and money talks loudly. When someone tells me that I have a moral obligation to tip because otherwise the worker will suffer from not making enough money, then we really have to inquire into how much of society's money is a man's "fair share". If employers cannot get decent service workers at e.g. $5.00 / hr then they should offer $5.50 or $6.00 or whatever it takes to get the workers that they want. Maybe prices will therefore go up; or, restaurants and pizzerias can simply add a service / delivery charge. I've had excellent restaurant service and have recognised it appropriately; I've never had an "excellent" pizza delivery.

[Inspector]

Well, I grant that, but that doesn't create an obligation on me. The implication is that somehow these people aren't paid "enough", so then, I'd like to know, how much is "enough"? How am I supposed to know who I have an obligation to tip? Bartenders? UPS guys? The mailman? A paperboy? Grocery store clerks? Checkout guy at the Auto Zone? My son's French teacher? When do we get to say, enough is enough?

I find the business of mindless tipping out of a sense of obligation to be utterly repulsive. When a person does actually perform superlatively, that fact should be recognised, and money talks loudly. When someone tells me that I have a moral obligation to tip because otherwise the worker will suffer from not making enough money, then we really have to inquire into how much of society's money is a man's "fair share". If employers cannot get decent service workers at e.g. $5.00 / hr then they should offer $5.50 or $6.00 or whatever it takes to get the workers that they want. Maybe prices will therefore go up; or, restaurants and pizzerias can simply add a service / delivery charge. I've had excellent restaurant service and have recognised it appropriately; I've never had an "excellent" pizza delivery.

Your ideas intrigue me; I would like to subscribe to your pamphlet or newsletter...

[stellavision]

Goodness. I order takeout 3 or more nights a week, and I generally tip the delivery person as well as I would a waiter, precisely because I know the system, for better or for worse, means that wages are part of their tips and because I appreciate their coming directly to my door when I'm disinclined to go out myself. (I give the guy who brings my laundry even more, because I certainly wouldn't want to carry a 35-pound bag up and down 3 flights of stairs to my walkup apartment.) But my tips are a sign of my appreciation, not a contract. They're optional. If I thought the guy who brings me my Chinese takeout thinks as you do -- that his customers owe him a certain amount just for showing up, and that he's entitled to take that amount if he doesn't get it -- then I'd probably stiff him. If you feel you aren't being paid enough, then look for another job that pays better. Or start your own pizza business and pay your servers well.

[softwareNerd]

How am I supposed to know who I have an obligation to tip? Bartenders? UPS guys? The mailman? A paperboy? Grocery store clerks? Checkout guy at the Auto Zone? My son's French teacher? When do we get to say, enough is enough?

I don't think there's any way to know except by finding out the norms in the area for the particular type of service. I know there are some people who try to err on the side of over-tipping out of an inappropriate sense of obligation, and also some who think that they ought to tip even when they get poor service (even if they aren't coming back). There are also some who think that average tipping for average service is being cheap. These people are wrong.

My own policy is not to tip if tips are not the widespread norm for average service. However, there are some occupations -- notably, waiting tables -- where the workers get a substantial portion of their earnings from tips (to the extent that a waiter in a fine-dining restaurant may actually receive a lower wage from his employer than a worker in a less pricey restaurant). So, for such services, I think the appropriate policy is to pay average for average service, unless you're got a campaign to bring down the average!

BTW: I have a wild hypothesis that some amount of tipping is driven by empathy of customers who have "been there done that" or otherwise identify with the person providing the service. Tips used to be far lower in India, for instance, when jobs like waiting tables were seen to be done by a completely different "social class". In the last decade, as more middle-class kids started to do more of those jobs as a precursor to a real career, tips started rising.

[BaseballGenius]

Well, I grant that, but that doesn't create an obligation on me.

Why not? If its part of the current social system, why would you go against it at this point?

The implication is that somehow these people aren't paid "enough", so then, I'd like to know, how much is "enough"?

Its not that I dont think Im getting paid enough. My point is that each customer should recognize and express their value for the service they just received(with money). The fact that some customers give larger tips that can offset the stiffers, does that mean its right to stiff?

[DarkWaters]

Why not? If its part of the current social system, why would you go against it at this point?

Do you believe that everyone should hand over some amount (possibly small) of their money just because it is part of some (often vaguely defined) social system that everyone did not agree to? If you disagree with this principle, then why do you perceive tipping a pizza delivery boy to be different?

Its not that I dont think Im getting paid enough. My point is that each customer should recognize and express their value for the service they just received(with money).

So then you should accept that a few customers place almost no additional value on your specific service as a deliveryman. Remember, free delivery is generally included with the purchase of a pizza. Tipping for the quality of the delivery service is optional.

The fact that some customers give larger tips that can offset the stiffers, does that mean its right to stiff?

If the customer truly and rationally perceives no additional value in the quality of delivery service, then yes.

Incidentally, I almost always tip delivery boys. Of course, this fact is not necessary to validate the arguments above.

Edited March 13, 2007 by DarkWaters

[D'kian]

Why not? If its part of the current social system, why would you go against it at this point?

That's a poor justification for anything. Lots of very bad things have been, and are, part of the social system. Things like welfare, escessive taxes, slavery, populism, racial discrimination, anti-semitism, etc etc. Merely being customary or, worse, the law, doesn't amke anything right or moral, or provide a justification for going along.

In the specific case of tipping, I repeat, your arrangements with your employer are not the customer's responsibility. Unless tips are included in the bill, they remain optional.

Let's say you deliver to me regularly and I tip you well enough. If I knew you loose gas money on other deliveries, I'd be sorry and I might be willing to offer advice. But I wouldn't be willing to increase my tips to make up for your cheap customers, because their actions are not my responsibility, nor have I a responsibility to help you earn a living.

When dealing with a rational person, tipping, when appropriate, insures good service. To that extent, it is in my best interest to tip well. That's what justifies tipping.

[DavidOdden]

Why not? If its part of the current social system, why would you go against it at this point?

Obligations must be created by the obligee, not society. Since in fact I don't have an obligation to tip (the proof is that there is no law obligating me to tip), your perception of society is in error.

Its not that I dont think Im getting paid enough. My point is that each customer should recognize and express their value for the service they just received(with money). The fact that some customers give larger tips that can offset the stiffers, does that mean its right to stiff?

It's not only right to "stiff", it's immoral to tip unless the pizza boy provides exceptional service, i.e. actually has earned from you any special consideration. Not that I'm accusing apeman of being immoral, just, well, I dunno, incautious in his morality, or giving in to fashion. That, or he has really great pizza delivery in his neighborhood.

[Galileo Blogs]

Obligations must be created by the obligee, not society. Since in fact I don't have an obligation to tip (the proof is that there is no law obligating me to tip), your perception of society is in error.It's not only right to "stiff", it's immoral to tip unless the pizza boy provides exceptional service, i.e. actually has earned from you any special consideration. Not that I'm accusing apeman of being immoral, just, well, I dunno, incautious in his morality, or giving in to fashion. That, or he has really great pizza delivery in his neighborhood.

I have only skimmed this thread, so if I am misconstruing the debate, my apologies. However, I just have to say that my understanding of tipping is that it is customarily given unless service is poor. An exceptionally large tip can be given if service is very good. Certainly at restaurants, one should tip. To not do so is a violation of an unstated, but implied agreement between the customer, the restaurant owner and the waiter. Just because the agreement is one that arises through custom does not mean that an agreement is not there. Yes, one could choose not to tip a waiter who did a good job. That goes against custom and essentially you are taking a service you have not paid for. Yes, legally you can do it, because the agreement is one of custom, not law, but that doesn't mean it is right to do so.

The fact that one is not legally obligated to tip is why it works as an effective method To Insure Promptness (TIP) in the provision of personal services, such as waitering. The waiter works hard to provide good service knowing that if he does not the customer may not tip him. At the same time, he can try to provide exceptional service in the hope of gaining a larger-than-typical tip. If you dine out and get waiter service, you are benefiting from this customary, albeit not legally-binding arrangement. You should pay for it.

[Mimpy]

To not do so is a violation of an unstated, but implied agreement between the customer, the restaurant owner and the waiter.

What implied agreement? When I go to a restaurant, I have the option of tipping. If it were an agreement, tipping would not be optional...as it is not when a waiter has to serve more than a certain number of people (I think the number is usually around eight per party). Then the tip is added automatically.

If the tip is not added automatically, then the "agreement" is left up to the person being served. He does not have to walk into the restaurant (or when having his pizza delivered), wanting to tip anybody. If the waiter does a good job and the customer feels he deserves extra pay for this, then he can tip. But I recognize no "implied agreement."

I expect decent service...otherwise I wouldn't be eating there. If I receive more than decent service (frequent refills, excellent presentation, quick delivery, etc), then I tip.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Mimpy

[DarkWaters]

Remember, free delivery is generally included with the purchase of a pizza.

I realized that my statement here is misleading. Delivery seems to almost always be a surcharge nowadays. Regardless, the customers are still entitled to having the pizza delivered, given that they are voluntarily agreeing to pay the surcharge that is coupled with the cost of the pizza.

Here is the excerpt from Wikipedia on pizza delivery fees. Please note that the neutrality of this section is presently disputed and is probably being settled by pizza delivery experts from all over the world.

For decades, "free delivery" was a popular slogan for almost all pizza stores. That changed in the United States in 1999 when Pizza Hut began to experiment with a 50-cent delivery charge in ten stores in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.[6] By the summer of 2001, it was implemented in 95% of company owned restaurants. The reason cited for the change was that intense competition forced pizza-makers to hold down prices while frozen pizza sales jumped in recent years. The big chains wanted to bump up their income. Other pizza delivery companies, like Domino's and Papa John's, shortly followed suit with delivery fees of their own.[7] Since 2004, most delivery charges, including Pizza Hut's, escalated into the range of $1.25 to $1.50 and in some stores it was more than $2.00.[citation needed]

This compulsory charge for services is part of the employer's gross receipts and does not have to be paid to the driver. As such, the company must pay taxes on these charges and gets to keep them. They belong to the employer, not the employee.[8]

These charges are often used to offset a restaurant's costs associated with delivery apart from the driver's income, such as the company's non-owned auto insurance policy, or can be used as a means of profit for the business.

Delivery charges should no longer be associated with mileage reimbursement, as they are often set at different rates. Most stores had a mileage rate before they started the delivery charge and the rate changed very little or did not change at all after adding the charge.

Some stores may charge customers less than the amount paid to the delivery driver, while others may charge more than what they reimburse their drivers, and the methods are as varied as pizza itself.

For Domino's and Papa John's, and possibly other chains, the primary reason for delivery charges is to cover increases in cost of labor and ingredients, without actually raising the menu prices of the finished product for the customer. This means the customer still gets the prices they are used to hearing or reading on coupons.[9][10]

Like all surcharges for premium services, delivery charges are not likely to go away. If anything they will only get larger as time goes by.

Wikipedia References:

[6]

[7]

[8]

[9]

[10]