Pizza Delivery

[BaseballGenius]

I don't like having to fight drunks but it's part of my job. Getting "stiffed" seems to imply that the customer is obliged to tip when they are not. Is it safe to assume that you don't approve of when drivers "make unpleasant situations" for their customers?

Yeah, I dont approve of that stuff. Unless the customer is a complete asshole to me. You know, like if he verbally assaults me or something bad like that. I would ask the manager not to accept deliveries to his house any longer, but if he does then I'll take it into my own hands. Whats wrong with that? It hasnt happened yet though. Almost this one time...

When you took the job of being pizza delivery driver, were you aware that your salary was in part based on tips AND that a customer has no obligation to tip (regardless of any social expectation)?

I know its not a legal obligation for the customer to pay me a tip. I get pissed off when I receive no tip and end up losing money for bringing his food to him. Kendall pointed out that its more about consistency though, than worrying about an occasional unappreciative non-tipper. But do mean no legal or moral obligation? Why do you think they dont have a moral obligation to tip me?

What accusation? Please provide proof for your false accusation that I made an accusation.

You said: "Is that a threat? How about YOU should ensure good service or you will get fired?"

Now, when someone capitalizes YOU like that, I assume they're talking about me and not a "you" in general.

[davidmsc]

I always give at least two bucks to pizza-delivery folks -- especially when the roads are really bad here in Great Falls. But I usually get Howard's Pizza (no offense, baseball genius!)!

[BaseballGenius]

I always give at least two bucks to pizza-delivery folks -- especially when the roads are really bad here in Great Falls. But I usually get Howard's Pizza (no offense, baseball genius!)!

Yeah, during the winter time its tough getting any traction when Im driving, either because of ice or heavy amounts of snow. The neighborhoods especially because most of those streets arent even plowed and I can hardly drive through them.

Youre from Great Falls? What a coincidence. What part of town are you from? I live right near the Air Force base.

Edited March 18, 2007 by BaseballGenius

[Inspector]

You said: "Is that a threat? How about YOU should ensure good service or you will get fired?"

Now, when someone capitalizes YOU like that, I assume they're talking about me and not a "you" in general.

Clearly, I was talking to you, but the question is: what do you think you've been accused of, and can you show me where I said it?

[BaseballGenius]

Clearly, I was talking to you, but the question is: what do you think you've been accused of, and can you show me where I said it?

Sure. Those lines I quoted. Those were more implications than questions.

[Inspector]

Sure. Those lines I quoted. Those were more implications than questions.

Ah, implications. So you retract your statement that I accused you of things, but rather are taking issue with implications? I wouldn't worry too much about implications. See, your post had implications of its own, until you addressed them in your later posts, so I was addressing those implications. So the fact that you yourself engage in implication should absolve me of any wrongdoing in your mind, hopefully.

[BaseballGenius]

Ah, implications. So you retract your statement that I accused you of things, but rather are taking issue with implications? I wouldn't worry too much about implications. See, your post had implications of its own, until you addressed them in your later posts, so I was addressing those implications. So the fact that you yourself engage in implication should absolve me of any wrongdoing in your mind, hopefully.

No big deal. I wont hold anything against you.

[Thales]

Baseball Genius, they could do a South Park episode on you, or maybe a Simpsons. The Pizza Driver that Demands a Tip! Now! or else he'll take it! For some reason this entire thread amuses me.

Seriously, though. A customer doesn’t have the obligation to tip you. He’s just paying for the pizza. A tip is a gratuity, that’s not part of the bill. Now, I tip the pizza guy, but I do it because I want to show my appreciation, not because I think I owe it.

Just to be clear, here is the definition of gratuity:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/gratuity

something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : TIP

[Inspector]

No big deal. I wont hold anything against you.

Likewise. You did clarify your position so I wouldn't worry about it. But do pass along that whole "jail" thing to your hoodlum co-workers, if you could.

[Inspector]

Yeah, I dont approve of that stuff. Unless the customer is a complete asshole to me. You know, like if he verbally assaults me or something bad like that. I would ask the manager not to accept deliveries to his house any longer, but if he does then I'll take it into my own hands. Whats wrong with that? It hasnt happened yet though. Almost this one time...

Could you clarify? What do you mean by "verbally assaults?" Also, what would you do to take it into your own hands?

[davidmsc]

I live over in Fox Farm -- in the Air Force -- and I definitely appreciate the delivery drivers from all the places! Like I said, my usual is Howard's Pizza mostly, and once in a while Pizza Hut, and even McKenzie River occasionally. And my kids sometimes order Chinese food for delivery (yuck!).

ps - check out www.greaterfalls.com blog

[RationalBiker]

I would ask the manager not to accept deliveries to his house any longer, but if he does then I'll take it into my own hands. Whats wrong with that? It hasnt happened yet though. Almost this one time...

If he has violated your rights, the proper recourse is through law enforcement and the courts. If he hasn't violated your rights, you have no right to violate his. You don't have a right to a tip, therefore, you don't have a right to retaliate against him.

Why do you think they dont have a moral obligation to tip me?

Because they haven't entered into an agreement to tip you. Just because you chose a job which in part relies on the benevolence of others does not obligate them, legally or morally, to accomodate you. If a tip is required, it should be made clear to the customer OR be added to his bill such that he can decide whether or not to continue using your services. The customer is not responsible for compensating you for what it costs you to do business. If you find that your manner of doing business is resulting in a loss, it's your responsibility to change your business practices or customers. Since you are not your own boss in this case, the manager is responsible for you having to do repeat business with a "stiffing" customer, not the customer. As I see it, your problem lies with your manager. This being the case, your moral choices are to accept the bad with the good, try to get the business to change their practice through rational discussion, try to get the customer to change their habits through rational discussion or find alternative employment.

The clerk at the MacDonalds makes minimum wage, takes my order, brings me my food, but has not expectation of a tip. What logical reasoning exists behind some jobs "deserving" a tip, and others not? Should I tip my mechanic because I sure as heck want good service from him?

I haven't done much research on exactly how "tipping" got started, but I'd hazard a guess that it has something to do with wealthier people feeling sorry for certain (poor) service-oriented people and helping them out by giving them something extra. If you look in the wikipedia you will find that it is essentially a whimsical social convention which when practiced can be considered anything from expected to insulting depending on the culture you are talking about. I don't see any reason to morally obligate someone to do something because he belongs to a particular culture versus what he thinks he should do as an individual for his own reasons. Do you think individuals should be morally bound to follow predominant social conventions, such that if they choose not to follow them other people should be allowed to exact "revenge" on them?

[BaseballGenius]

RationalBiker,

I understand what youre saying, and Im going to have to agree with you. I dont know of any reason why everyone has to participate in a social convention if they dont want to. But does that mean the ones who tip are the ones who appreciate the service the most?

[RationalBiker]

But does that mean the ones who tip are the ones who appreciate the service the most?

Quite possibly, yes, but not necessarily. Some people tip because they feel obligated without respect to the quality of service they received or how much they enjoyed it.

Some people don't care so much about the "touchy, feely" side of a service as they do the "just get it done" side. I went into deli's during my brief stay in New York where the service was quite rude and abrupt. In fact, if you weren't ordering with your money in hand when it was you turn, you could get kicked out of line and they might refuse to serve you. The deli was BUSTLING with business. People didn't go there for "pleasant service". They were there because the food was great and they got it quick. If I recall there may have been a tip jar, but I'd venture to say participation was mixed.

Now that we agree on the first part (about obligation/revenge), I do think that you could make the argument that in some cases it is in the customer's rational self-interest to tip. There are a couple of restaurants that I frequent fairly regularly. I've gotten to know some of the people a little bit, they treat me nicely and I like being welcomed back. Since I value these things, I choose to recognize the social convention and tip them, typically better than I would other places. The relationship I have formed with that particular place is more personal than "just another restaurant". I'm sure if I went there and didn't tip, I'd still get my food, and the service (while hopefully not harmful to me) would probably be less enthusiastic.

The point is that I'm choosing to tip because it's in my interest, not their's, though they benefit from it as well. That is what I would expect any individual to do, to tip based on their interests, which are hopefully rational, not someone elses.

Edited March 19, 2007 by RationalBiker

[FeatherFall]

David, I wasn't trying to imply anything other than a business relationship between a pizza guy and a customer. What I was trying to do was understand the use of the word obligation in a non-legal, non-rights context. Because no one can possibly determine the exact value someone else's tip should be, the tip custom relies on the honor system rather than a legal one. This is why I think it is more appropriate to examine friendships than contracts in this discussion.

Regarding jibber-jabber; many delivery drivers and waiters are paid less precisely because of the expectation the customer would not otherwise have to put some effort in valuing the sum of the product and service and most importantly the saved opportunity costs. This fact is difficult for some to identify, as shown by this thread. I think the current implementation of the custom is poor (a sign would help), but to claim the industries are the same because the differences are difficult to identify is ridiculous.

If one earns something by creating a value, one can earn something through employment by a business where lower wages are standard, assuming those low wages create something. In this case, what is created is a price flexibility that would not otherwise exist. If you understand this, and truly place no value on the things that it saves you, then you should not tip. [edit: someone who does this is participating, and has fulfilled their obligation] Some people understand that price flexibility is created but put no effort into evaluation because $2 is worth more to them than giving people what they have earned. This is more akin to the Scandinavian socialist mentality than my statement.

Seriously, though. A customer doesn’t have the obligation to tip you. He’s just paying for the pizza. A tip is a gratuity, that’s not part of the bill. Now, I tip the pizza guy, but I do it because I want to show my appreciation, not because I think I owe it.

Statements like this are why I brought up thanking a friend. Do you have an obligation to show your appreciation? If you do, then the most appropriate way to show appreciation to the pizza guy is with money, because his low wage is what created that which you appreciate. That would mean that there is an obligation to tip.

Edited March 19, 2007 by FeatherFall

[DavidOdden]

What I was trying to do was understand the use of the word obligation in a non-legal, non-rights context. Because no one can possibly determine the exact value someone else's tip should be, the tip custom relies on the honor system rather than a legal one. This is why I think it is more appropriate to examine friendships than contracts in this discussion.

There is no similarity between friendship and pizza delivery. Now that we've set aside legal obligations, I have no obligations to the pizza boy other than generic civility, the same kind of civility I would owe to a stranger that I pass on the street or the bus driver. I would not owe him any money, and I would say "Thank you", just as I generally do to the hardware store clerk or the meat-monger who hands me a roast.

The implication of "honor system" is that even though there is no legally enforceable debt incurred, it is somehow dishonest of me to not tip, because I have some non-binding obligation to pay money to every service person that I encounter. This is simply not true. I have no obligation, other than the general obligation to be civilized, and paying people to deliver pizza or bring a box of shoes from the back room is not part of what it means to be civilized. On the contrary, he implication that I should bribe a person to do their job is part of what it means to be uncivilized.

Regarding jibber-jabber; many delivery drivers and waiters are paid less precisely because of the expectation the customer would not otherwise have to put some effort in valuing the sum of the product and service and most importantly the saved opportunity costs.

Okay, but how is that relevant to me? I understand how that might matter to a person wondering if they should get a job delivering pizzas, but it's not my concern why some people do what they do for a living, since their needs don't constitute a valid claim on my life. I mean, one thing is abundantly clear here, namely that pizza delivery guys seem to think that they have a social (if not legal) right to my money, because they took a low-paying job and did so with the expectation that others would feel that it is their civic duty to sacrifice a part of their income to give them a better standard of living. So there is no unclarity about whether y'all have this expectation. I'm just puzzled why you think your expectations matter to me? Do I claim that you ought to do things to make my life better because I have an expectation that you will? Not anytime that I can remember.

In this case, what is created is a price flexibility that would not otherwise exist. If you understand this, and truly place no value on the things that it saves you, then you should not tip.

Okay, I think we're in agreement. If it ever does come to pass that a pizza boy does create value for me, he will be appropriately rewarded. Same would go for the grocery store clerk, hardware salesman, librarian, secretary, bus driver, or any number of people who I deal with but don't hire directly.

[RationalBiker]

If you do, then the most appropriate way to show appreciation to the pizza guy is with money, because his low wage is what created that which you appreciate. That would mean that there is an obligation to tip.

But I had nothing to do with his low wage, or his accepting of a job that pays poorly and depends on gratuities from others. If his wage is unsatisfactory for his needs, he should re-negotiate his deal with his employer, not me. He accepted the job and the risk of not getting tipped. I had nothing to do with the creation of the "tipping" social convention either. Just like any other job, he should be payed by his employer for his performance. In return, I chose whether or not to pay for the good or service provided based on a known cost when the deal is made.

As near as I can tell, who should get tips and who shouldn't is arbitrarily determined. The guy who picks up my garbage probably makes a relatively low wage for a relatively demanding and unpleasant job. Should I tip him if picks up my trash nicely? Conversely, my tatoo artist charged me $125 an hour for his work PLUS tips. The shop probably gets about 1/2 of that for renting him space so that still leaves him making $60+ an hour. Does he deserve a tip? If I put a drunk in jail nicely, do I deserve a tip for my "service"?

Also, the relationship I have with my friend is of considerable more value and durability than that I have with the average pizza delivery guy. The appreciation I show my friends is irrelevant in comparison to whether or not (and how) I demonstrate my appreciation to a delivery guy.

I'm not arguing against tips per se, as I tend to tip fairly well. Rather, I'm arguing against what I see is an arbitrary and unchosen "duty" to tip.

[SkyTrooper]

So this entire thread is ridiculous, but I have to chime in because one of my first jobs in High School was at a pizza hut.

I started out answering phones, but when I covered for the Shift Manager at the dispatch station one time (the computer with the map by it that you use to decide which drivers get which pizzas) I got unofficially moved to that job. I was promoted to management before I was even technically old enough to do it, since your supposed to be 18.

So the first thing I need to get out is that there is probably no reason for a rational person to be a pizza delivery man right now, for the following reasons:

1) Your car will get beat to hell (most restaurants require you to have your own car)

2) If you get in an accident, you are not covered if you were delivering pizza

3) You will have to buy the gas for your car

4) Your wage and delivery payments ($0.50 a delivery at Pizza Hut) will likely not cover the cost of your driving

There used to be tips that might allow working as a driver to be profitable but delivery charges cut down on tips and therefore mean that you will be essentially making minimum wage or less. Also remember that when drivers are at the store waiting for orders to be given to them they are generally given side jobs like prepping food or washing dishes.

Now, on to the subject of tipping. Obviously a driver has no right to steal money which he feels he has implicitly earned. It is the customer's decision whether to tip or not, however it is in your rational self-interest to do so because you will get worse service in the future if all the drivers at a store know that you don't tip.

Honestly I'm a little disgusted by the stereotypes held by some people in this discussion about drivers, since most of the drivers I knew were very hard working. Equating a productive employee that has delivered you food to a bum asking for money is ridiculous. Not only would I be uncomfortable with the idea of someone loosing money by providing me with a service, but it would show little confidence in my own ability to think that I couldn't easily produce $2 in value.

A few suggestions for drivers on how to get more tips

1) Call ahead and verify the address, and let your customer know you are on the way.

2) Dress professionally and be polite

3) Check the pizzas before you leave to make sure they are up to standard

4) Bring packets of Parmesan Cheese and Crushed Red Pepper, along with napkins

A laptop with a mapping program (I seem to remember microsoft having one) in your car will also help solve those problems with unposted addresses. Some people will never tip, but like I said its not a very good business to be in right now.

[BaseballGenius]

If it ever does come to pass that a pizza boy does create value for me, he will be appropriately rewarded. Same would go for the grocery store clerk, hardware salesman, librarian, secretary, bus driver, or any number of people who I deal with but don't hire directly.

How do you determine if a worker has provided enough value to give him a tip?

[RationalBiker]

How do you determine if a worker has provided enough value to give him a tip?

Not to speak for David, but you are assuming that by "rewarded" he means giving money. He may not mean that.

Edited March 20, 2007 by RationalBiker

[DavidOdden]

How do you determine if a worker has provided enough value to give him a tip?

Even if we assume that it's only about money, I use the same method for determining the value of service as I do for determining any other value. That's so obvious that I can't believe that you even have to ask. Now, how do you determine that you are owed a tip for doing a job, when I'm apparently not owed a tip, nor, it seems, are the cop on the beat, the tattoo artist, the car salesman, grocery clerk, bus driver, harware stock boy, gas station attendant, Kinko's clerk, bank teller, candle-salesman or burger-flipper? Unless you're really arguing that we should always tip everybody that we interact with on the job? Frankly, I'm more than a little outraged that you haven't tipped me for these valuable lessons in basic egoism.

[FeatherFall]

Badkarma, if the delivery industry in my area were as you described it, I would get the hell out fast. As it stands, my car does get some extra wear and tear. But I like to drive, and my insurance covers me while I work. Gas is offset by mileage pay, and with tips I usually make what I would at a call-center. Plus, the hours are more flexible.

But I had nothing to do with his low wage, or his accepting of a job that pays poorly and depends on gratuities from others. If his wage is unsatisfactory for his needs, he should re-negotiate his deal with his employer, not me.

Vern, this makes it sound like I am presenting the notion that delivery drivers are harmed in some way that their customers are responsible for; like customers are damage-incurred debtors. I have been trying very carefully not to present that notion, because I reject it. I am talking about production-incurred debt. I am talking about a value produced by the drivers that customers are taking advantage of. I have described that kind of value in previous posts. You may not have created the custom, but you are taking advantage of it when you order from a business that employs it, and you owe your participation in it (whether or not that results in a tip). Which businesses employ it and how you determine that can be more difficult. Which brings me to...

David, in any relationship you have an obligation to treat others the way they deserve to be treated. That includes recognizing who creates what value for you and acting accordingly. In the businesses that I described, that means looking at the sum of the product and service with special attention given to opportunity costs, then coming to a conclusion on the appropriate amount to compensate the person who's wage differentiates that business from others in the industry. If you don't understand when tipping is appropriate, that's another thing, and it's understandable.

The fact is that people don't put up signs. You can be certain that if they make less than minimum wage, tipping is appropriate. But, how are you to know what the wage is? When wages go up, it becomes more difficult to identify. For higher-wage businesses tipping may still be appropriate, but without calling a business's manager and asking if tips are expected, then confirming that they are deserved by checking his driver's wages against standards at non-tipping businesses in the same industry... I shouldn't have to describe the process. People shouldn't have to go through a process that convoluted. People should post signs.

Anyway, the tone of this particular discussion is turning me off. Suffice it to say that I think tipping is a silly custom and I don't get bent out of shape when people don't tip. In industries where tipping is expected, what you know you owe before ordering is that moment of evaluation afterward. Once you have done that, you may find that you owe more. People will have sense of life reactions to other people when they evaluate relationships differently. In business as in friendship, conflict can be overcome with effort or avoided by severing relations.

[DavidOdden]

You can be certain that if they make less than minimum wage, tipping is appropriate.

The word "appropriate" in inappropriate here: you really mean "something that you ought to do". Now, will you please explain your logic? What principle does this follow from. For example "If someone doesn't make 'enough' money from their job, then if you deal with them in their line of work, you ought to make up that shortfall and supplement their income"? I cannot fathom what principle you are calling on to arrive at the conclusion that I should tip based on a wage statute. Are you referring to a presumed "right to a living wage"?

[Inspector]

I think that the way Featherfall and Baseballgenius have presented tipping is inaccurate.

You make it sound like you are employed by the customers, only instead of having a price on your service like other businessmen, you simply allow us to decide what your wages are. That somehow each pizza deliveryman has entered into an implied contract with each caller, separate from the whole arrangement with the pizza restaurant. Therefore, if a customer decides to tip you zero, then he has effectively stolen your service, taking advantage of your generous offer to let him determine your salary.

This is completely false. In fact, it is ridiculously false.

The actual situation is thus: the customer has made a deal with the pizza place to have a pizza delivered to his house. The pizza place then employs you to do the delivering. There is no private arrangement between you the delivery man and the customer. There is no value, above and beyond the one stipulated in his purchase contract with the pizza place, that you are providing. This is what is meant by the statement that by expecting a tip, you are asking for the unearned. When the customer pays the price listed on the menu, he has paid for the pizza and the delivery, and furthermore paid for it to be delivered promptly and in a state of quality.

There once existed a custom in which extraordinary performance was rewarded with a personal tip. Some overgenerous fools - my speculation is that it was rich second-handers who wanted to appear publicly generous, along with mush-headed former service workers - managed to create a bandwagon in which average and even substandard service are personally tipped. This bandwagon, no matter how much employers adjust wages to compensate for it, does not create a legal or moral obligation on customers - who are innocent bystanders to the whole affair - to participate. Even if the employer uses this custom to pay you less and charge the customer less, it is not the customer who is taking advantage of you if the customer does not tip; it is your employer. Furthermore, you are the one who agreed to enter into a contract in which your pay was at the whim of this nonsensical system. Benefiting from lower prices does not obligate a customer to compensate anyone. If a car manufacturer slashes the wages of his factory workers to provide a cheaper car, I am not obligated to "tip" the line workers because I enjoyed this lower price.

Frankly, most people are aware of this zany system, and pay only out of the fear of social stigma, or pity for the people they feel are "trapped" within it. But the idea that someone is "trapped" in a crummy job is Marxist bilge. If you don't like your job, then quit: the option of other people paying for your situation should not be on the table.

There, I said it. I feel much better now.

David, I have been trying to figure out this whole tipping nonsense in my head for a while now. Your statements finally helped me to lock together the last pieces of the puzzle. Thank you. If I ever get the chance, I think I might give you a tip.

[BaseballGenius]

Even if we assume that it's only about money, I use the same method for determining the value of service as I do for determining any other value. That's so obvious that I can't believe that you even have to ask. Now, how do you determine that you are owed a tip for doing a job, when I'm apparently not owed a tip, nor, it seems, are the cop on the beat, the tattoo artist, the car salesman, grocery clerk, bus driver, harware stock boy, gas station attendant, Kinko's clerk, bank teller, candle-salesman or burger-flipper? Unless you're really arguing that we should always tip everybody that we interact with on the job? Frankly, I'm more than a little outraged that you haven't tipped me for these valuable lessons in basic egoism.

My question wasnt an argument, it was a question. You said that you wouldnt give a tip to a worker unless they created enough value for you do so. And then I asked "how do you determine they provided enough value for you to give them a tip?" What dont you understand?