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Inspector,

In all fairness, I've scanned through the old posts and your only other crude attack was dismissing my entire viewpoint as "byzantine nonsense" near the middle of this thread. I attributed the other attacks to you, although they were made by others.

Being as I'm the only one that seems to recognize the fact that an expectation exists that Pizza Drivers be tipped and others not be, this discussion has become me vs. the world. Although I am convinced of my viewpoint I am uncomfortable with this arrangement.

As for your last point, I will reiterate that it is wrong to claim that you cannot have several contracts in effect at the same time. Yes, they cannot cover the same labor but the labor can be divided amongst several contracts.

For example;

Painting wall: Explicit contract with general contractor for $100, executed through subcontractor #1

Painting north side of room: Explicit contract with general contractor for $50, executed through subcontractor #2

Painting south side of room: Explicit contract with subcontractor #1 for $50

Similarly;

Making Pizza: Explicit contract with Pizza Parlor, executed through in-store employee

Having Driver on Hand to Deliver Pizza: Explicit contract with Pizza Parlor called "Delivery Charge", executed through driver

Delivery of Pizza: Implied contract with driver

I need to get to class. Considering that we have gone this long on this thread, I really see any sort of consensus on this topic impossible and even unnecessary.

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Inspector,

In all fairness, I've scanned through the old posts and your only other crude attack was dismissing my entire viewpoint as "byzantine nonsense" near the middle of this thread. I attributed the other attacks to you, although they were made by others.

Okay. I'll accept that wasn't the nicest thing to say. I could have come up with a less rude was of saying that, but my sense of flair for cleverness overwhelmed me momentarily. I do apologize for that.

Being as I'm the only one that seems to recognize the fact that an expectation exists that Pizza Drivers be tipped and others not be, this discussion has become me vs. the world. Although I am convinced of my viewpoint I am uncomfortable with this arrangement.

It's tough. Just take deep breaths and go it slow. Numbers don't matter.

As for your last point, I will reiterate that it is wrong to claim that you cannot have several contracts in effect at the same time. Yes, they cannot cover the same labor but the labor can be divided amongst several contracts.

But that's not exactly what I'm saying. When you get the time, go over my posts again and maybe shoot me a question if you need.

Making Pizza: Explicit contract with Pizza Parlor, executed through in-store employee

Having Driver on Hand to Deliver Pizza: Explicit contract with Pizza Parlor called "Delivery Charge", executed through driver

Delivery of Pizza: Implied contract with driver

How do you respond to my scenario (the only one I have ever used) where there is an explicit contract between the customer and the Pizza Parlor to deliver the pizza? Can the driver then make another contract, implicit or otherwise, to do the same?

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Being as I'm the only one that seems to recognize the fact that an expectation exists that Pizza Drivers be tipped and others not be, this discussion has become me vs. the world. Although I am convinced of my viewpoint I am uncomfortable with this arrangement.

Badkarma556, you are not completely alone with your position. While I am not 100% convinced that one should tip pizza drivers, I believe that one's self-interest calls for it in nearly all circumstances. At least I view it as in my self-interest when I order pizzas or any other delivery food. (All of the delivery menus state that delivery is free, but it is widely understood and customary in New York to tip the delivery person. I would say that "free" delivery is comparable to "free" waiter service in a restaurant. It may be included at no explicit charge in your meal, but it is widespread and customary to tip.)

As for other tipping, specifically restaurant tipping, but also including tipping doormen in New York apartment buildings, one's barber, etc., I do believe one should tip in all circumstances, except when service is poor. At restaurants, for example, I have found that waiters generally provide good service. There have been very few instances (count them on one hand) when I have not tipped at all in a restaurant because of remarkably poor service.

My reasons are most fully stated here at post #70. I also responded in posts 48, 52, 55 and 57.

Enjoy the near-aloneness of your position, and enjoy your pizzas and restaurant meals! :nuke:

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Okay. I'll accept that wasn't the nicest thing to say. I could have come up with a less rude was of saying that, but my sense of flair for cleverness overwhelmed me momentarily. I do apologize for that.

I'll follow your lead and take a moment to apologize to anyone I've managed to piss off over the course of the last 300 posts.

At least some of the confusion results in my occasional attempt at the Socratic method to try to explain views. My only formal philosophical education has been in Plato, and I still have not fully shaken off that influence.

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Badkarma,

Okay, now if you promise to not skip over my previous post, I did have another point to add...

Since we've established that "tip" could refer to a gratuity or a fee (the former being optional, the latter morally required), I'd like to point out that you're mistaken in thinking that since most people engage in the former, that this creates a custom for the latter. Just because many people always tip does not mean that they are engaging in the latter, non-optional, behavior. Could you consider the possibility that they are simply engaging in gratuity, only they do it every time because they are either really benevolent, really altruistic, or really showboat-happy? In other words, just because many people choose to always exercise an option, does not make it non-optional. The custom is still that it is optional, even if that option is almost always exercised.

That, by the way, was the point that RationalBiker was making.

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How do you respond to my scenario (the only one I have ever used) where there is an explicit contract between the customer and the Pizza Parlor to deliver the pizza? Can the driver then make another contract, implicit or otherwise, to do the same?

Inspector,

If there is an explicit contract that states the Pizza Parlor will deliver you the pizza and absolutely no explicit or implied portion that you will tip the driver, than yes you are right to say the driver could not attempt to "double charge" you by entering into a separate contract.

How do you respond to my scenario that there is an explicit agreement with the company to pay for the pizza and some of the delivery costs, while there is an implied agreement to pay for the rest of the delivery costs? Would this be at least materially possible based on your understanding of contracts?

If you call up and say something to the effect of "I would like to order a pizza for delivery, I will not be tipping your driver" than their agreement to sell you the pizza amounts to the contract that you have been arguing for. This is the only way to remove the expectation. I would be personally opposed to this course of action because, knowing what I do about the wages of the people working in the store and the costs of the driver, I have no desire to be delivered a product by a person who is loosing money by doing so. I dislike the idea, but it is better than not clarifying the contract.

If you don't tell the company in advance that you aren't tipping the expectation will still exist to tip the driver (even if, as you claim, it is not your fault). Under this course of action I am being delivered a product by a person who thinks they will be making a profit by doing so, and is going to go out of his way to get it to me quickly and be polite to me. Reality has been distorted in such a way that a person who is providing me with a service he is not being compensated for is actually not upset at me, but is treating me politely and will still have to maintain an air of politeness after he finds out that he is being exploited.

Since we've established that "tip" could refer to a gratuity or a fee (the former being optional, the latter morally required), I'd like to point out that you're mistaken in thinking that since most people engage in the former, that this creates a custom for the latter. Just because many people always tip does not mean that they are engaging in the latter, non-optional, behavior. Could you consider the possibility that they are simply engaging in gratuity, only they do it every time because they are either really benevolent, really altruistic, or really showboat-happy? In other words, just because many people choose to always exercise an option, does not make it non-optional. The custom is still that it is optional, even if that option is almost always exercised.

I can entertain the scenario you suggest but I know that I'm certainly not being motivated by feelings of Altruism (the feelings I used to get when Bums asked for money) or from Showboating (I'll in all likelihood never see this person again and could care less about their opinion) when I tip the driver. I genuinely feel like I'm paying the driver for a service he's provided me with. I think that however the custom started out, is has evolved to be part of the contract. If not for the custom the pizza would be $2 or $3 more expensive and the driver would make $10 per hour instead of $6. Even if it started out with a huge Altruism movement to tip all pizza drivers, a custom was created, and the drivers wages have adjusted to cancel out the additional money he can expect in tips.

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Inspector,

To expand on my last post:

Your Pizza Place

"Hello. You want a pizza for delivery?.. Ok, that will be $15.00 and delivery is entirely included in that amount."

My Pizza Place

"Hi. You want a pizza for delivery?.. Ok, that will be $13.00 (and I assume you know you need to tip the driver)."

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How do you respond to my scenario that there is an explicit agreement with the company to pay for the pizza and some of the delivery costs, while there is an implied agreement to pay for the rest of the delivery costs? Would this be at least materially possible based on your understanding of contracts?

Let's concertize this so you realize exactly what you are talking about. How would the conversation go in your scenario?

I gave the three scenarios that I listed before:

1) The menu says "delivery: $2.00." The Parlor gives the customer a total: "That will be $18.23, sir." Doing the math, the customer can easily tell that this total includes the menu price of the pizza, tax, and a $2 charge. This is an explicit contract that leaves no room for any contracts, implied or otherwise, with the deliveryman.

2) The menu says "Delivery is free." This is an explicit contract that leaves no room for any contracts, implied or otherwise, with the deliveryman.

3) The menu is not clear or isn't available. The Parlor gives the customer a total: "That will be $18.23, sir." The customer asks: "does that include delivery?" The parlor says, "Yes." This is an explicit contract that leaves no room for any contracts, implied or otherwise, with the deliveryman.

Bear in mind that #1 and #2 are the only scenarios that I have ever encountered in my entire life.

Even if it started out with a huge Altruism movement to tip all pizza drivers, a custom was created, and the drivers wages have adjusted to cancel out the additional money he can expect in tips.

That doesn't follow. If the majority of people are not actually engaging in "tip" (fee), then you don't have any justification for claiming that there does exist a custom to "tip" (fee).

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If you don't tell the company in advance that you aren't tipping the expectation will still exist to tip the driver (even if, as you claim, it is not your fault). Under this course of action I am being delivered a product by a person who thinks they will be making a profit by doing so, and is going to go out of his way to get it to me quickly and be polite to me. Reality has been distorted in such a way that a person who is providing me with a service he is not being compensated for is actually not upset at me, but is treating me politely and will still have to maintain an air of politeness after he finds out that he is being exploited.

Again, whether the driver loses money on the delivery or not is irrelevant to me as a customer. I'm not the driver's employer, and the driver entered the job voluntarily. In all probability the driver was NOT under the impression that every customer tips, but he chose the job because he believes that enough people will tip to make up for his cost (which in this case is the correct assumption). There is no distortion of reality at all, unless the driver himself was delusional.

I think that however the custom started out, is has evolved to be part of the contract. If not for the custom the pizza would be $2 or $3 more expensive and the driver would make $10 per hour instead of $6. Even if it started out with a huge Altruism movement to tip all pizza drivers, a custom was created, and the drivers wages have adjusted to cancel out the additional money he can expect in tips.

This is the part that you need to prove. And I know you've attempted to do so before, but poorly. Your argument failed because, based on your own criteria, it has to be well understood by everyone that tipping was an obligation. But clearly it isn't, if not based on the reaction on this board, at least on the poll that rational biker had posted before where nearly 50% of the people that participated consider tips to be voluntary.

The only way you can prove your argument (that of custom turning into an implied contract) to be true is by proving first that every single person --or at least an overwhelming majority-- in America understood that tips were part of the fee, and not an gratuity. So far you have consistently and persistently failed. Without recognizing this fact, despite the fact that it has been repeated to you umpteen times by multiple people in various different ways, is the reason why this discussion is grounded.

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The reason I separate out the pizza delivery example from the discussion of tipping in restaurants is because food delivery usually has the words "Free delivery" printed on the menu. Despite that, I think the practice of tipping for pizza delivery and service in a restaurant is quite similar. Both actions are TIPs as the acronym for To Insure Promptness. They work effectively for that purpose. I would argue, as I did in one of my posts that they primarily work in the negative. Very slow delivery or poor service results in no tip. It is the desire to avoid that outcome which encourages the pizza delivery person or waiter to provide fast service.

Having said all that, tipping is entirely voluntary. However, if you don't tip, it is likely to hurt you. You may find that your pizzas arrive more slowly as they are placed at the bottom of the queue. You even run the risk of a vengeful delivery boy messing up your order somehow. In a restaurant, if you never go back to the restaurant you may encounter no problems, but if you desire to eat there more than once, eventually the waiters will mark you as someone who doesn't tip and provide you with what they deem is the appropriate level of service. Also, if you are dining in a social situation and you are splitting the bill or you are taking care of the bill, your dining companions are likely to disapprove of your behavior and, in fact, not want to eat out with you any more.

So, it is eminently in your self-interest to tip. You can choose not to. That is your legal right, but quite often it would be self-sacrificial behavior.

As a social custom, tipping is entirely rational. It fosters good service and, incidentally, good will. I am a little flummoxed as to the antipathy toward tipping that appears on this thread.

Edited by Galileo Blogs
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However, if you don't tip, it is likely to hurt you. You may find that your pizzas arrive more slowly as they are placed at the bottom of the queue. You even run the risk of a vengeful delivery boy messing up your order somehow. In a restaurant, if you never go back to the restaurant you may encounter no problems, but if you desire to eat there more than once, eventually the waiters will mark you as someone who doesn't tip and provide you with what they deem is the appropriate level of service. Also, if you are dining in a social situation and you are splitting the bill or you are taking care of the bill, your dining companions are likely to disapprove of your behavior and, in fact, not want to eat out with you any more.

Millions for defense, sir, but not one cent for tribute.

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Inspector,

The only scenario I've ever encountered is

4) The menu is clear but doesn't discuss the delivery agreement. The Parlor gives the customer a total: "That will be $18.23, sir." I never ask if delivery is included, although I will experiment with that this weekend. I agree that if you ask "should I pay the driver extra for delivery?" and they say no, no additional contracts exist.

Since you have never experienced this (only examples #1 and #2), I would like to show it to you.

Go to Dominos.com and use the demonstration mode here:

http://dominos.quikorder.com/scripts/mgwms...bxIXwgLhkgjWxWe

note on the last page all that is listed is the choice for delivery/carryout, the "total" is in this format:

$14.99

+TAX $1.16

$16.15

It also says you are agreeing to the terms and conditions, which when you read them do not discuss delivery or really anything material to the order. The only other thing you have to do to order is click the "send order" button.

Do you agree that, in this example at least, there is plenty of room for something similar to an implied agreement to tip the driver, whether or not one actually exists? Would you also agree that a tip to a driver in this example is not illegal or immoral?

Edited by badkarma556
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Millions for defense, sir, but not one cent for tribute.

Funny, but yours is a Quixotic (and quizzical) battle, indeed. I will watch it amusedly while I enjoy my delicious restaurant meal, knowing, of course, that my waiter serves me ahead of you!! :P

This discussion is similar, although not quite the same, as what constitutes polite behavior in social settings. Do you hold the door open for women? Do you cover your mouth when you sneeze? Do you shake someone's hand when it is offered to you? Do you place your napkin on your lap? In Korea, a young person will use two hands to offer a drink to his senior. In Japan, businessmen bow when they greet each other. The issue of tipping is similar to manners because the practice is different here than it is in other countries, but that does not mean that it is irrational.

Tipping to me makes perfect sense and it is a custom that is worthy of being followed, much like many other social customs are. Does one have a legal obligation to be polite to another person? Of course not. Is it in one's self-interest to do so? Yes, if one values a civilized society. Is it in one's self-interest to tip? Yes, for the reasons I stated in my earlier post, and because it is a custom that results in good, fast waiter and food delivery service. The custom works because most people adhere to it, just like the benefits of a civilized, polite society accrue to everyone to the extent everyone observes social customs. Yes, I can get to my destination faster by running through the door and not holding it open for a woman. I can eat more quickly and efficiently by keeping my napkin at my side or more aggressively using my knife and fork or talking while eating, etc. But if I value civilized discourse with my fellow men, I don't behave that way.

If I value good, responsive, fast service at restaurants or from the pizza delivery man, tipping is a social custom that should be observed for similar reasons that I adhere to customs of politeness. By the way, that is why not tipping is often viewed as rude behavior. Although not entirely the same as impoliteness, it is related to it. If I am with someone who doesn't tip (assuming the service was good), I view him as tacky. It is as if he did something very crude at the table. Speaking personally, I won't go out to eat with that person again, unless I have an over-riding reason to, such as a compelling business reason.

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So, it is eminently in your self-interest to tip. You can choose not to. That is your legal right, but quite often it would be self-sacrificial behavior. As a social custom, tipping is entirely rational. It fosters good service and, incidentally, good will. I am a little flummoxed as to the antipathy toward tipping that appears on this thread.

I think just about everybody on this thread agreed that tipping can be rational and in your self-interest. What we're disputing is the argument that tipping is an obligation/contract.

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Inspector,

The only scenario I've ever encountered is

Wow. Crazy. I just picked up three pizza menus from my floor and all three of them specify a delivery charge. So I looked at a place that's on the same basic level as Dominos - Papa John's - and they had a delivery charge, too. What kind of pizza do you eat?

I never ask if delivery is included, although I will experiment with that this weekend.

Cool. Tell me what happens.

Go to Dominos.com and use the demonstration mode here:

You're right; no listing of it. I looked in my coupon drawer for Dominos and had to dig a little because I try to throw out their coupons. (I hate Dominos) The coupons said, "Delivery charges may apply." So it is ambiguous.

But you know what?

On the web dealy it says "delivery" on the selector and it says "total" at the bottom line. So the "total" includes "delivery."

And on planet earth, if you order a pizza for delivery, and they give you a total, then that is your total. Period. The total cost you are obliged to pay and it includes delivery. Anything you pay out from that point is gratuity and not contract.

Would you also agree that a tip to a driver in this example is not illegal or immoral?

I never said tipping (optional gratuity) was immoral. But to pay him a nonexistent fee would be immoral. And to pay him for a service you already paid for him to do is immoral.

This discussion is similar, although not quite the same, as what constitutes polite behavior in social settings. Do you hold the door open for women? Do you cover your mouth when you sneeze? Do you shake someone's hand when it is offered to you? Do you place your napkin on your lap? In Korea, a young person will use two hands to offer a drink to his senior. In Japan, businessmen bow when they greet each other. The issue of tipping is similar to manners because the practice is different here than it is in other countries, but that does not mean that it is irrational.

Did you tip the delivery guy for that massive package-deal you have there? It must have been heavy to lift up all of those stairs.

Edited by Inspector
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I think just about everybody on this thread agreed that tipping can be rational and in your self-interest. What we're disputing is the argument that tipping is an obligation/contract.

It is no more an obligation than being polite is, as I described in my post. (I think our posts crossed in the ether.)

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Moebius,

The post you just responded to was addressed to Inspector and not to the general board specifically so it not be confused as an argument to prove an implied contract between the customer and the driver. The question Inspector and I are currently considering is "given the other contract at play, is something similar to an implied contract even materially possible?" I was also explaining to Inspector why I am personally uncomfortable not tipping.

I have been using the term "implied contract" again with Inspector to discuss whether or not additional agreements are possible considering that there is an explicit agreement with the pizza place. If I've worded my discussions to make it seem that I believe there is a legal implied contract while in fact I believe there is only something similar to an implied contract (more of a "gentleman's understanding"), I apologize for your confusion. With that in mind I hope you realize your last post argues against a straw man.

The only way you can prove your argument (that of custom turning into an implied contract) to be true is by proving first that every single person --or at least an overwhelming majority-- in America understood that tips were part of the fee, and not an gratuity. So far you have consistently and persistently failed. Without recognizing this fact, despite the fact that it has been repeated to you umpteen times by multiple people in various different ways, is the reason why this discussion is grounded.

If you remember, I developed a position some time ago that the agreement with the driver to Tip was similar to an implied contract but different in that there was no legal status attached to it. If this is the case, the criteria for its existence will meet different criteria than that of a legal implied contract. You need not discuss the "certain" criteria of a legal implied contract with me anymore.

I would rather just discuss this with Inspector for now, but if you would like to address my position please understand that I am not arguing for a legal implied contract. I am not arguing that non-tippers should be arrested for failing to fulfill a contract.

Edited by badkarma556
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On the web dealy it says "delivery" on the selector and it says "total" at the bottom line. So the "total" includes "delivery."

Actually, scratch that.

5. Fees Schedule. QuikOrder does not add any fees or costs to your order when you place an order or use this site. All user access to this site is free. Pricing for items on this site reflects pricing established by the participating Restaurants. QuikOrder assumes no liability for any discrepancies between the price quoted on this site and the actual price charged by the Restaurant at the time of delivery or pickup.

(bold mine)

Yeah, I will admit that they could well have all kinds of hidden fees.

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If I've worded my discussions to make it seem that I believe there is a legal implied contract while in fact I believe there is only something similar to an implied contract (more of a "gentleman's understanding"), I apologize for your confusion. With that in mind I hope you realize your last post argues against a straw man.

If you remember, I developed a position some time ago that the agreement with the driver to Tip was similar to an implied contract but different in that there was no legal status attached to it. If this is the case, the criteria for its existence will meet different criteria than that of a legal implied contract. You need not discuss the "certain" criteria of a legal implied contract with me anymore.

It would seem like you're the one that's confused, since the argument was never about the legal status of tipping -- even a fool should know that there's no law against not tipping. What you were arguing was that there was a MORAL obligation to tipping, and I'm saying there isn't. Perhaps you've already forgotten what you were arguing, which I suppose is understandable considering the frequency with which you smudge your position without acknowledging your errors.

In any case, I suppose your argument now is that a tip is "something like a implicit contract, but not really"? In which case it clearly ISN'T an implicit contract, and it is neither morally nor legally wrong not to tip. That is, unless you are now prepared to argue that being bad mannered is immoral. As far as your feelings about people not tipping goes, as heartfelt as they may be, it really has no place in a discussion about morality (or legality, for that matter).

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Inspector,

So are we in agreement that for this specific example, the following line of reasoning isn't sufficient?

3) There cannot exist an implied agreement to pay a fee to the driver because the fee has already been explicitly negotiated. (i.e. "The charge is $12 plus $2 for delivery, coming to $14 total.") An implicit agreement cannot contradict an explicit agreement. In any conflict between an implicit agreement and an explicit one, the explicit one wins.

4) Paying someone to do something that they are already contractually bound to do is not a tip or a fee, but a bribe.

5) Bribery is actually immoral. Demanding or expecting a bribe is immoral. To "tip" the pizza guy in this case would actually be to sanction his immoral attitude.

I usually order Domino's or from one of the local pizza joints in Chicago btw.

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Did you tip the delivery guy for that massive package-deal you have there? It must have been heavy to lift up all of those stairs.

I am comfortable with the package. The point is that tipping is similar to social manners in terms of how obligatory it is. As for reasons for tipping, I expressed them in that and earlier posts. They haven't been challenged, as far as I can determine.

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Moebius,

What you were arguing was that there was a MORAL obligation to tipping, and I'm saying there isn't.

I have been arguing that you should tip. Morality is the values you use to live your life. What is Moral is what is in your rational self-interest (according to Ayn Rand, at least). If tipping is in your rational self-interest than it is Moral and "right." If not tipping goes against your rational self-interest than it is immoral and "wrong"

Perhaps you've already forgotten what you were arguing, which I suppose is understandable considering the frequency with which you smudge your position without acknowledging your errors.

Although I apologize for not being clear, my position has been and will remain that "you should tip." This position will never be separated from "it is moral to tip." If I decide that I shouldn't tip than I will also decide that it is immoral. You're failure to understand the "moral vs. practical false dichotomy" is not my fault.

In any case, I suppose your argument now is that a tip is "something like a implicit contract, but not really"? In which case it clearly ISN'T an implicit contract, and it is neither morally nor legally wrong not to tip.

I don't follow your logic (my comments are in brackets):

1) A tip to a delivery driver is similar to an implied contract [yes]

2) A tip to a delivery driver is "not really" the same as an implied contract [yes]

3) Because of (1) and (2), (2) is still true [unnecessary step]

4) Because of (2) it is not legally wrong to not tip [yes]

5) Because of (2) it is not morally wrong to not tip [does not follow]

It is both morally an legally wrong to not fulfill and implied contract, it is only morally wrong to violate any type of agreement you choose to enter into.

That is, unless you are now prepared to argue that being bad mannered is immoral.

I am not arguing that being bad mannered is immoral, and the suggestion that I have to in order to prove my point that "it is moral (aka. you should) tip a delivery driver" shows that you have little understanding of my position.

Edited by badkarma556
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I am comfortable with the package. The point is that tipping is similar to social manners in terms of how obligatory it is. As for reasons for tipping, I expressed them in that and earlier posts. They haven't been challenged, as far as I can determine.

My point about tribute referred specifically to the "they will sabotage" part of your argument. It's fine if you want to pay people to do something above and beyond. I think it's a very important distinction. Paying people to not sabotage is tribute to the barbarians, so to speak.

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Inspector,

So are we in agreement that for this specific example, the following line of reasoning isn't sufficient?

For that specific example - with the website - you have a sloppy deal going on. If the deal remains that sloppy, then no you can't say that there exists an explicit contract to deliver the pizza. So not that reasoning isn't sufficient. I would add the below:

I would say that in that case there does exist an implied contract to deliver the pizza because every other pizza deal on planet earth explicitly includes delivery in the "total." That's what "total" means! You can, as before, have an implied agreement to tip (gratuity), which if you are an altruist or otherwise irrational you may consider mandatory, but an agreement to tip (fee) would be nonsensical because the pizza and delivery are already paid for. You could also engage in a "please don't sabotage my food" bribe, if you're into that kind of thing, but I would consider it a bad idea. It didn't generally work, historically speaking.

I usually order Domino's or from one of the local pizza joints in Chicago btw.

Sweet Enola Gay, son! What is wrong with you? You live in the pizza capital of planet earth and you order Dominos?!? :rolleyes:

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My point about tribute referred specifically to the "they will sabotage" part of your argument. It's fine if you want to pay people to do something above and beyond. I think it's a very important distinction. Paying people to not sabotage is tribute to the barbarians, so to speak.

Yes, but not paying To Insure Promptness means you suffer. If you don't tip, it is not sabotage to simply serve you last, behind the customers who tip. As a customer, your only question should be what is in your self-interest? To me, tipping is clearly in my self-interest so that I can enjoy a good, well-served meal or a quickly delivered pizza. What other consideration is there?

To state this more precisely, your enjoyment of good, quick service comes about from the direct reward of a tip that you provide your server, and also indirectly from your support of the tipping custom. The former is true if you are a repeat pizza customer or restaurant patron. As I explained in an earlier post, if you are tagged as someone who doesn't tip, the service you experience will deteriorate so that your pizza gets delivered cold or you wait a long time for water at the restaurant. Call it what you wish -- sabotage, rationally serving the non-tipper last or whatever -- it is what you are likely to experience if you don't tip. Is it in your self-interest to experience that? For me, it clearly is not and, therefore I tip.

As to the indirect benefit you get from the existence of the tipping custom, your delivery person works quickly to provide you with service in the hope of getting a tip. He knows that if he doesn't provide good service, he may not get a tip. So, he hustles more in expectation of getting that tip. As I explained in a much earlier post (#70, I believe), you are in the best position to evaluate that service, so your server's wages are structured so that effectively part of the server's wages are paid by you. Now, this whole custom enables you to be in the driver's seat by motivating quick service that you are in the best position to evaluate. Tipping empowers you. Because it enables service quality to be higher than it otherwise would be if there were no tipping, this custom is in your self-interest and is worthy of your support. That is why you tip even at a restaurant you will only go to once.

The analogy to this "indirect" argument for tipping is social manners, which I also mentioned earlier. Why is it in your self-interest to be polite to strangers? Why is it in your self-interest to support any social custom? Well, I'll leave it to you to think about that one a little bit. I mentioned some reasons in my prior post.

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