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Yes, but not paying To Insure Promptness means you suffer.

Suffer? From what? I will pay for service above and beyond the contract. If no such service is provided, I will not pay above and beyond the contract. If they do not meet the minimum service levels of the contract, I will seek redress from the employer for breach of contract.

My problem with your argument is simply that you say if one does not tip then they may not meet the terms of the contract. I say that it is insane to expect a tip for meeting the terms of the contract and that threatening to breach the contract if not tipped is barbaric. Civilized men meet their contracts and do their jobs! People should tip as an incentive to good behavior, not as a response to the threat of bad behavior!

If you would simply excise the portion of your argument that morally sanctions servers who fail to meet contracts and asks people to bribe these louses into doing their jobs, then we would have no dispute.

What other consideration is there?

Justice. The principle that bribery encourages delusions of entitlement and mooching.

your pizza gets delivered cold or you wait a long time for water at the restaurant.

Cold pizza or a lack of service is a breach of the contract. If they deliver the pizza cold, then I will not pay them at all. Are you saying that there is no contract to deliver the pizza hot? Because if you are not, then you are saying that I must bribe them to keep their contract. To do their job.

As to the indirect benefit you get from the existence of the tipping custom

Who said anything about not tipping ever? I am for tipping. I am against bribing.

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Inspector, shouldn't a pizza delivery person or waiter act out of self-interest, just as you do? If they have a choice whom to serve first, the person who tips or the person who does not, who should they serve first? If you want fast service, you should tip. It really is very simple.

It goes even further. If a waiter has a regular patron who tips generously, won't he serve that person faster and more eagerly than just the regular tipper?

Their behavior is entirely rationally selfish and just. Because I want to enjoy fast service myself, I tip. You are free not to tip, but don't ask for a level of service you haven't paid for.

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Inspector, shouldn't a pizza delivery person or waiter act out of self-interest, just as you do?

Of course, but he must bear in mind that he must keep his word to do his job, so he must not breach the contract when doing his job for an non-tipper. If he fails to provide average service to the non-tipper, he is violating his contract and his word. So while he may pursue gains from tippers, he must bear in mind not to neglect to do his job.

If you want fast service, you should tip. It really is very simple.

That's fine; but it is not an option to threaten slow service.

Their behavior is entirely rationally selfish and just. Because I want to enjoy fast service myself, I tip. You are free not to tip, but don't ask for a level of service you haven't paid for.

I don't. In fact, I never said I don't tip or won't tip. I do tip and I will tip; but I won't bribe.

Could you do me a favor and re-examine my last post to you? I had a request for you in it that you withdraw your sanction from saboteurs. (or, clarify that you do not sanction that behavior or think that people should act as appeasers to it) Because honestly that is our only point of disagreement as far as I can tell.

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Could you do me a favor and re-examine my last post to you? I had a request for you in it that you withdraw your sanction from saboteurs. (or, clarify that you do not sanction that behavior or think that people should act as appeasers to it) Because honestly that is our only point of disagreement as far as I can tell.

I do not sanction saboteurs and such a sanction was not implied. However, I would not call serving non-tippers more slowly than tippers sabotage. Also, if one chooses not to participate in a widely-expected custom, one really can't be too surprised if it has adverse consequences one doesn't like. To say you might get cold pizza or sabotaged service (not just slower service than the tippers get) is no more a sanction of sabotage than it is to say that if you walk alone in parks at night you increase the risk of getting mugged. I am against mugging, but I am no fool and I will not walk in a park at night.

To relate it to tipping, if you want good, fast service, tip. If you don't, don't tip. Whether you get slower service because a waiter serves you behind the tippers (i.e., no sabotage) or you suffer from actual sabotage, does it make a difference? You are still the victim and you are the one who suffers poor service. I don't want those things, so I selfishly tip.

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However, I would not call serving non-tippers more slowly than tippers sabotage.

Not so long as it meets the requirement of doing their job. If the pizza is cold, then they have failed to do their job. If there are "averse consequences," then they have failed to do their job.

Also, if one chooses not to participate in a widely-expected custom, one really can't be too surprised if it has adverse consequences one doesn't like. To say you might get cold pizza or sabotaged service (not just slower service than the tippers get) is no more a sanction of sabotage than it is to say that if you walk alone in parks at night you increase the risk of getting mugged. I am against mugging, but I am no fool and I will not walk in a park at night.

I don't know how the police service is in New York, but in Chicago I hear that you should donate to the Fraternal Order of Police if you don't want them to harass you by "erroneously" ticketing your car. If you don't participate in this widely expected custom, then you really can't be too surprised if it has adverse consequences you don't like.

That's what you sound like.

I want to hear some moral fire from you, Galileo. Because where I come from, if someone doesn't do his goddam job, if he needs a bribe to "motivate" him, then he is a filthy parasite.

But from what you say, it sounds like someone who doesn't tip is "asking for it." Like if their servers don't do their job, well, who can blame them?

I want you to blame them, Galileo.

To relate it to tipping, if you want good, fast service, tip. If you don't, don't tip.

Who are you talking to with this? It's like you haven't listened to what I said. You're presenting a false dichotomy: tip everyone and get good service or tip nobody and get poor service. How about I tip when I get exceptional service, I don't tip when I get service that doesn't go above and beyond the job, and I seek redress when I get poor service?

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I want you to blame them, Galileo.

Why should I? I tip them, and get good service.

Anyway, I will repeat my answer to one of your basic problems with tipping: Why is tipping the standard rather than the exception? Here's what I said on that:

If I am correct, why is tipping ordinarily given at nearly every meal? Why shouldn't it be given only when there is exceptional service, with the employer paying the waiters more to cover the cost of the ordinary tips? My hypothesis answer is that the threat of not getting a tip is a highly effective method of motivating the waiter to provide the extra personal service I describe. Tipping really is a carrot and stick motivator, with the stick being a big part of the motivation. Since the customer has no legal obligation to tip, and can tip nothing at all, the waiter is motivated to provide decent service to avoid that outcome. Of course, on the carrot side, the waiter, if he is ambitious and energetic, will seek the extra large tip by providing exceptional service. (On a side note, there are stories in New York of regular patrons at some very expensive restaurants who have actually tipped their favorite waiters cars. I am not kidding. Now, I am not mentioning this to start up a thread on the morality of tipping cars to waiters!! :P )

I think what I said makes sense. Moreover, it puts you, the diner, in the driver seat with regard to tipping. You are in the position of directly motivating and rewarding good service because you effectively pay part of your waiter's salary. Instead of upsetting me, that pleases me. I have a lot more direct control over the quality of the service I experience than I would if that custom did not exist.

I am not sure what else to say in this debate. It is amusing, but I still remain puzzled at the animus against this custom. For all of the reasons I have given, I view the custom as reasonable, just and highly effective at promoting an enjoyable dining experience. It also solves the tricky problem of evaluating and motivating such personal service as waitering.

If you feel so strongly that tipping is unjust, don't do it. Really, don't do it. You have no legal obligation to do it. My point is that, like it or not, you are likely to suffer at some point as a result of that decision. I don't have a problem with that, because I endorse and support the custom of tipping. You apparently do have a problem with the fact that you may suffer impaired service. What can you do about it, apart from tipping your waiter? (I guess you can sue, if you feel you have been harmed enough. Would hiring an attorney to sue the restaurant or the pizza place to obtain redress be in your self-interest??)

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Why should I?

Because I presume that you value the idea that a man is hired to do a job and he is obligated, morally and legally, to do his job at the very minimum. I presume that you value the idea of a contract and are willing to morally condemn a man who needs to be bribed to meet his contractual obligations.

Moreover, it puts you, the diner,

I will remind you that the subject is pizza delivery. Although we could move on at some point and discuss dining, I would like to at least resolve pizza delivery first. I believe that dining is far more ambiguous as to whether service is included in the bill and so is a completely different animal than pizza delivery.

My point is that, like it or not, you are likely to suffer at some point as a result of that decision.

If by "suffer" you mean sabotage, and not just that a non-tipper (which I am not) won't get things quite as fast as an automatic tipper, then I would hope that you would at least morally condemn the saboteurs.

But as I said, I fully intend to tip, if and when service is provided that exceeds the job requirements.

(I guess you can sue, if you feel you have been harmed enough. Would hiring an attorney to sue the restaurant or the pizza place to obtain redress be in your self-interest??)

As I and others said earlier in the thread, if the pizza is cold I won't pay for it and if the place does not redress their breach of contract then I will do no further business with them.

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I will remind you that the subject is pizza delivery. Although we could move on at some point and discuss dining, I would like to at least resolve pizza delivery first. I believe that dining is far more ambiguous as to whether service is included in the bill and so is a completely different animal than pizza delivery.

Fair enough. I think the principles are the same in both instances, and it is easier to establish that tipping is appropriate at restaurants, for the simple reason that "Free delivery" is typically stamped on a pizza or take-out menu. So, I focus my discussion on restaurants in order to establish the principle there first, but I fully support tipping the pizza man, as well, for the reasons I already gave.

If by "suffer" you mean sabotage, and not just that a non-tipper (which I am not) won't get things quite as fast as an automatic tipper, then I would hope that you would at least morally condemn the saboteurs.

As I said before, serving the tippers first and the non-tippers last is not sabotage. It is rational self-interest on the part of the waiters and pizza men. Why shouldn't they act in their self-interest, to do business first with those who pay them most? I condemn deliberate sabotage (spilling water on you, mangling the pizza, etc.). Nevertheless, by not adhering to a widely practiced custom (tipping), you do increase your risk that you will suffer such a consequence. That is a simple fact. You are not required to tip in order to avoid that outcome. In fact, it may never happen to you even if you don't tip. However, the odds increase that it will happen if you are a non-tipper. That is why I brought up the analogy of walking in a deserted park late at night. It is your right to do so. Whether it is in your self-interest to do so, you have to judge given the enjoyment you receive from walking in the park (or not tipping) versus the increased risks you subject yourself to.

To be clear, my argument for tipping is not hinged on the avoidance of sabotage. Rather, it hinges on the concept that you are paying for good service in the customary manner. I presented my argument fully in prior posts.

But as I said, I fully intend to tip, if and when service is provided that exceeds the job requirements.

As I and others said earlier in the thread, if the pizza is cold I won't pay for it and if the place does not redress their breach of contract then I will do no further business with them.

That is your prerogative.

I believe I have made all the arguments I can on this subject. If I can think of a point to say that I haven't said already, in response to an argument that hasn't already been made, I will post again. Otherwise, I retire from this discussion. Cheers!

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As I said before, serving the tippers first and the non-tippers last is not sabotage.

Sorry to ask you back into this, but I had a final question: Would you say that there is a minimum requirement of service, in the case of pizza that being a hot pizza delivered in good condition and on time, that is required by the job, regardless of tips? And that there is some equivalent at restaurants as well?

If yes to both, then conceivably a server might fail in this contractually-required minimum if he was too busy providing extra service to tippers, right? Would you say that it would be in his self-interest to do so, i.e. to violate his word and his contracts in order to attempt to earn more tips from the tippers?

Furthermore, do you morally condemn muggers who mug people who are naive enough to go out alone and unarmed into the park at night? Are the muggers to be blamed for the violation of rights, or is the naive man just getting what he "asked for?" If the muggers are to be blamed, then why can't I get you to blame a pizza saboteur?!?

Edited by Inspector
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I think people should tip, since that is the customary way to pay for what I call "standard good service". I think that means tipping in nearly all instances, except when service is poor. It also means varying your tip appropriately according to the level of service which, as I have emphasized, is the key virtue of tipping because it enables you to reward your server according to the level of service you receive. You directly control a key portion of the financial compensation of your server and you benefit from better service than would exist in a world without tipping (hat tip to Myrhaf). (I already responded earlier why tipping is done as a matter of course, not just for extraordinary service.)

As a practical matter, you will get good service the first time you order from a pizzeria or at a restaurant because the deliveryman or waiter does not know that you don't tip. However, once that person tags you as a non-tipper, assuming he remembers you, he will rationally serve you with less vigor than he would a tipper the next time he serves you. I do not view this as sabotage.

In fact, I would take this argument a step further and say that because tipping is a widely-expected custom, to expect good service when you don't tip is really a form of expecting the unpaid-for. I haven't stressed that point heretofore, but I believe it. However, if in good conscience you (mistakenly, in my view) think that tipping is illogical, I will not fault you for not tipping. I just might not want to dine with you, as I explained in an earlier post.

Pay for your service through tips and you get good service. If you don't tip, your service will not be as good. That is what you should expect, and it is fair.

As to what level of minimal service an establishment should provide a known non-tipper before there is breach of contract, hell, I don't know what that level is. Personally, I don't want to find out. I tip and get good service, and will continue to do so.

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Inspector,

How do you handle attending a restaurant with a party of 6 - 8 where a restaurant in their menu openly declare that parties will be charged a mandatory gratutity of 15% to 18%?

Side Story: I was eating at PJ Clark's in Chicago on Illinois Ave. with 3 friends for Sunday brunch. It was exceptional I might add. We asked for seperate checks. I pay with a debit card for everything. It is the industry I am in and just makes things easier. We had gotten up from a night in the city and strolled down from a friends apartment in the Northpier Tower builing. We did not look like bankers but neither did we look like hippies. When the waiter brought our bill at the bottem of each was a stamp of red ink telling us that 15% gratuity had been added with the manager's approval with his signature at the bottom. Keep in mind we had never eaten at this restuarant or given any cause for such actions. If anything the waiter made decidedly less money as I tip on average 20% for almost everything. I worked as a bartender while in college for a summer.

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Inspector,

How do you handle attending a restaurant with a party of 6 - 8 where a restaurant in their menu openly declare that parties will be charged a mandatory gratutity of 15% to 18%?

I would consider that an explicit contract to provide good service in exchange for a fee. I would treat that situation the same as a pizza delivery: I would not add any "automatic" tip unless I was provided with an extraordinary service. If I was, then I would add an appropriate tip on top of the mandatory "gratuity." If the service was lousy, I would complain first to the waiter, and then to the manager.

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Galileo,

I see you are determined to not answer my questions as posed, especially the ones about pizza. It would be great if you would answer them, but I give up on asking.

Sorry to ask you back into this, but I had a final question: Would you say that there is a minimum requirement of service, in the case of pizza that being a hot pizza delivered in good condition and on time, that is required by the job, regardless of tips? And that there is some equivalent at restaurants as well?

If yes to both, then conceivably a server might fail in this contractually-required minimum if he was too busy providing extra service to tippers, right? Would you say that it would be in his self-interest to do so, i.e. to violate his word and his contracts in order to attempt to earn more tips from the tippers?

Furthermore, do you morally condemn muggers who mug people who are naive enough to go out alone and unarmed into the park at night? Are the muggers to be blamed for the violation of rights, or is the naive man just getting what he "asked for?" If the muggers are to be blamed, then why can't I get you to blame a pizza saboteur?!?

Inspector,

I do not think you addressed many aspects of my argument, to wit:

* tipping gives control to the tipper; therefore, the custom of tipping is to the tipper's benefit

* tipping for standard service is an effective motivator because of the threat of not tipping for poor service

* it is rational and appropriate for a server to serve the non-tipper after taking care of the tipper

* tipping is the customary way to pay for standard good service, so if you don't tip, you should not expect good service

* not tipping and expecting good service is asking to get something without paying for it

I have focused on the essence of the argument, whether the custom of tipping is rational or not, instead of answering every one of your questions.

Although I do not think your questions address the heart of this argument, and bearing in mind that I do not believe you have responded to my arguments, I will directly answer your questions anyway (all of these are from Inspector's post #334, quoted above):

Would you say that there is a minimum requirement of service, in the case of pizza that being a hot pizza delivered in good condition and on time, that is required by the job, regardless of tips?

Yes, in particular if the pizzeria says "Free delivery" on their menus.

And that there is some equivalent at restaurants as well?

Yes and no. Restaurants really do expect their patrons to tip as a matter of course, unless service is horrible. So, if you don't tip, I think the restaurant need only provide you with minimal service. If they determine that you are a serial non-tipper, I think it is their prerogative to bar you from eating there. Of course, if they accept your presence in the restaurant, they should provide a minimal level of service. Their waiters should serve you according to their self-interest, which will be last, after all the tippers have been served.

If yes to both, then conceivably a server might fail in this contractually-required minimum if he was too busy providing extra service to tippers, right?
I challenge the wording of your question. The waiter would be busy providing his standard service to tippers. Since tipping is customary and is expected of every patron (if standard service is provided), he should provide standard service to his standard tippers and outstanding service to his outstanding tippers. As for the non-tippers, he should serve them last, but yes, he should get around to serving them eventually.

Would you say that it would be in his self-interest to do so, i.e. to violate his word and his contracts in order to attempt to earn more tips from the tippers?
This question is akin to asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The first "duty" of the server is to himself. He should provide a variable level of service to his customers proportionate to the degree they tip him. Yes, if the restaurant proprietor does allow serial non-tippers into his restaurant, he should provide the minimal level of service to them, as I explained above.

Furthermore, do you morally condemn muggers who mug people who are naive enough to go out alone and unarmed into the park at night?
Yes, I do.

Are the muggers to be blamed for the violation of rights, or is the naive man just getting what he "asked for?"
I also reject the phrasing of this question. Yes, the muggers should be blamed, and arrested, for the violation of rights. The naive man did not "ask for" what he got in one sense, in the sense that it was fair or moral or right for him to get mugged. But yes, he did "ask for" it in a different sense, in the sense that through his naivete he made a mistake (walking in the park at night) that a less naive person would not have made. Everyone is responsible for their own lives, and naive people do make mistakes that they will not repeat when they become less naive.

If the muggers are to be blamed, then why can't I get you to blame a pizza saboteur?!?
Blame the muggers and blame the pizza saboteur, whoever he is. I am 100% against all forms of sabotage.

But, not tipping and getting poor service on account of it is not sabotage. The simple fact of poor service does not make it sabotage. It is the just response of the server towards the non-tipper. Of course, if the server deliberately destroys your food order, that would be sabotage and is to be vociferously condemned as the heinous immoral action it is. :dough:

Really, tip and you very rarely have to worry about your food order being sabotaged. :(

Edited by Galileo Blogs
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Blame the muggers and blame the pizza saboteur, whoever he is. I am 100% against all forms of sabotage.

That's all I wanted!

I agree with you about restaurants and what you should do in regards to tipping, given the tipping custom. It does not appear that service is included in the bill at restaurants. There is no clear minimum of service that is included with the price of the meal.

I do not think pizza deliverymen should be tipped unless they do something amazing like get through a snowstorm or are really early. This is because I have always seen either a delivery charge or a "Free delivery" stamp on their literature. If there is a charge for delivery, there cannot be a "standard" tip for it.

I do like the tipping custom as a way to get extraordinary things, a la Diamond Jim.

I do not like the tipping custom as a "standard" thing that is a mandatory part of every single transaction. I prefer my business deals up front, objective, and not subject to inflation via social pressure. Tipping used to be 10% as standard. Now it is coming up on 20%. Did service get better? No, it did not. I do not like that.

I also do not like the idea that expectations are unknown and everyone is guessing. I do not like an incoherent system. How would you like it if instead of prices on the menu, the restaurant wrote: "whatever you feel like paying." And then if you didn't overpay just to be sure you were paying enough to please your new masters, then they would serve the food undercooked and make snide comments at you. I want a price I can see on the menu for a standard meal and service so I know what I am getting and I know what I am paying for. I want a contract that I can bind and hold them to.

Diamond Jim does not need tipping to be mandatory in order to get what he wants. He flashes his cash and people will "hop to" for him. I also think that it is in Diamond Jim's interest for the tips to be just for the high rollers like himself. It is clearer that way how much of what he pays is for the standard and how much is for the above and beyond.

Just so you know, I am a Diamond Jim when it comes to haircuts. I go to the $10 haircut places and tip 50-80%. I would prefer there was no expected tip in haircutting so that my voluntary tipping would be seen as all the more extraordinary. I would get even better service. You see, it is in Diamond Jim's interest for tipping to be non-standard.

I will probably be expanding on this. But I hope that answers your question for now, Galileo. The reason I didn't answer at first is because the topic being discussed here is pizza delivery and not restaurant service. I wanted to discuss the topic at hand.

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Oh, don't you people even get me started... I know that I'm going to sound like a misanthrope, but I am sick and tired of explaining myself to everyone. I work as a pizza delivery driver in Australia. And from what I've been reading from various sites, it seems that in Australia we get the worst of it. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but I don't get that many tips, even when I am in a good mood. Even when it's pouring rain, with lighting hitting nearby trees, people down here as so friggin cheap. A typical order will end with either $xx.90 or $xx.95. And I can tell you that approximately 60 to 70 percent of customers will expect that five or ten cents back. So when I hear people going on about percentages and getting at least a dollar for a tip, I laugh. At the store that I work at, drivers would be lucky to have a dollar - TOTAL - at the end of a shift, from tips. And just so you know, the store that I work at was rated as the best franchise store in the country for our brand. It takes a lot of hard work and good service to get that.

Now let's look at fuel. With the current fuel prices regularly between $1.16 and $1.30 (AU) per litre, and having to travel up to 18km round-trip per single delivery, it just doesn't pan out without decent tips.

If you want to find out what I really think about what customers should expect, check out my blog. I assure you that I wrote that when I was being reasonable, so I think that many might find it interesting. It's at http://upsizethis.spaces.live.com

And in case anyone thinks of suggesting that I should consider another job, forget it. I genuinely like my job. For me the good outweighs the bad, and I am passionate about our product, service and quality. It's just that as a delivery driver, tips are something that gets me fired up. ...five cents?!... I use more than five cents worth of fuel starting my car and getting it out of the carpark at work. Keep your five cents, it's an insult!

UpsizeThis.

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Any further comments on this topic I am making them on this thread. As for the sub-topic of tipping for pizza delivery, as opposed to tipping at restaurants, I will not comment further. The real debate here is about tipping at restaurants. For example, in Inspector's post above, all but the 3rd and the last paragraph discuss restaurant tipping. Frankly, that is the only subject I am really interested in.

Edited by Galileo Blogs
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I once had a girlfriend who worked as a pizza delivery person and she told me it was common for drivers to spit in the pizza of repeat low tippers. :lol: I don't know if BaseballGenius and UpsizeThis can confirm this trend, but it was enough to make me avoid ordering pizza. When I do order it, I'm sure to always tip well, no matter what service I get.

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Oh, don't you people even get me started...

I'd tip you if it was snowing and you still got it to me hot and fresh. Of course, it doesn't snow by me.

Does your shop charge a delivery fee or print "free delivery" on their stuff?

I once had a girlfriend who worked as a pizza delivery person and she told me it was common for drivers to spit in the pizza of repeat low tippers. :D

You see? Not just no-tippers, but low-tippers. It's a bleeping mafia racket, I tell you!

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  • 2 months later...

I work at the local pharmacy. Today a customer called and wanted her meds delivered, but was out of our delivery range. She told the girl who was speaking with her that she would "tip big." I volunteered, because it was only 15 miles roundtrip, and a "big tip" would be at least 5$. B**** didn't give me nothing. Well she did offer me a coke, but why the hell would I want one? I wasted 2.50$ worth of fuel and half an hour of time, for nothing.

My question is what would the appropriote reaction be to this. I should have mentioned the phone call, but i didn't. Is there anything I can do now(other than tp her house of course :) )?

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Not only that, but turn it from a tip into an actual agreement. After you take Inspector's suggestion and clarify what "big tip" means, then ask a confirming question, such as, "Okay, so if I deliver these meds to you at this place outside our delivery range, you will give me x dollars above the price of the meds?"

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Next time I'm going to make it incredibly clear I want a tip, before the trip.
If it's the same lady, I'd suggest you simply stick with your employer's policy, telling she's outside your delivery area and that you will not take her up on any offers to make a private trip.
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