How does one practice morality in a mixed economy?

[stephen_speicher]

What one should feel guilty of is accepting that government and taking advantage of the handouts.

Depends on what you mean by "accepting that government" and by "taking advantage of the handouts." In the short time I have been on this forum, we have heard from three people, two of them disabled, who questioned the morality of receiving benefits from the government. If that is what you mean by "taking advantage of the handouts," then, as I originally said, you can wallow in all the guilt you want, but I will not, and I will not advise these other people to forgo benefits.

[Betsy]

"What one should feel guilty of is accepting that government and taking advantage of the handouts."

What Ayn Rand was advocating was

• NOT accepting that the government has right to give handouts
  
• Actively arguing against the existence of such handouts
  

WHILE

• Taking advantage of the handouts, without guilt, as restitution.
  

[source]

Depends on what you mean by "accepting that government" and by "taking advantage of the handouts." In the short time I have been on this forum, we have heard from three people, two of them disabled, who questioned the morality of receiving benefits from the government. If that is what you mean by "taking advantage of the handouts," then, as I originally said, you can wallow in all the guilt you want, but I will not, and I will not advise these other people to forgo benefits.

By "taking advantage of the handouts," I mean saying that they are moral and that one should have them because one needs them.

By "accepting that government," I mean considerning the government (which gives handouts to those "in need") moral and necessary.

[source]

• Taking advantage of the handouts, without guilt, as restitution.
  

Oh, yes. I see now the error in my phrase "taking advantage of the handouts." To take advantage of something in my language has negative connotations and they must have gotten lost in the translation. I apologize, I should have been more careful.

[Fred Weiss]

What is that supposed to mean?

So you suggest we wait for 30 more years?

You said that rational persuasion doesn't work any more, which I assume means that you think you possess reason and others don't.

As for having to wait 30 years - or however long it takes - what is the alternative? Furthermore, I do not say just wait. What you do is fight for it, the way all men have fought for ideals down through the ages - men who realized that anything worth achieving involves struggle.

I might add that what you are saying is that Ayn Rand's achievement was futile and she shouldn't have bothered, since the world didn't immediately embrace her ideas.

Fred Weiss

[fifi]

But did you know that it was wrong to attend a state school? ... If so, and you went to the state school, then to be brutal I would say you were being immoral (moral remenption is always possible).

I disagree most vehemently.

As someone said, so accurately, where the state has taken over the best schools, or has usurpsed education in a way that the state runs good schools, it would be immoral (highly unselfish) to deny oneself a good education.

If you are a moral, productive person, take what you can from the government...be assured they will end up taking more from you than you will from them.

[fifi]

Personally, I am on strike. ... I pay as little in tax as I possible can. ... In fact I have had jobs where it was all cash. ....

In your post you do not mention your purpose in life. Perhaps you are a writer, and artist...perhaps studying some subject with the intent of writing a book someday... if so, I wish you "Godspeed".

Having said that, on reading your post, I was filled with sadness, saying to myself: "Here is someone who is taking pride in being in low-paying jobs where cash is still used... who has given up on life and on himself... who has no purpose in life, but is pouting at the world and using Objectism as his justification for being a loser." I have seen many like that... it is most tragic.

I hope this is not you.

Best regards

Fifi

[source]

You said that rational persuasion doesn't work any more, which I assume means that you think you possess reason and others don't.

I possess some rational (objective) arguments. Not all, but enough to see that the political parties in my country are all the same, driven by same principles and that when the elections come I will be either forced to vote for the lesser evil again or let this country vote itself to its downfall. I hear them all condemning capitalism. I hear them all glorifying socialism. They're too afraid to do it, but if they weren't they'd glorify communism as well. And in the meantime, this country, under any government is becoming more and more communist every day. Everything is becoming regulated, everyone is demanding government funding and almost everyone is on strike because they're not getting it. To begin advocating capitalism here, or even give a notion that you're a capitalist is like poiting a gun at your head, pulling the trigger and hoping that it's empty. To say anything that has to do with reason is wasting your breath, because noone is interested in reason, because reason doesn't favor their causes for strike or government or anything else they do. So the reason why rational persuasion doesn't work is exactly that - nobody wants to hear it. And the country is still too communist to convince anyone that capitalism is good.

As for having to wait 30 years - or however long it takes - what is the alternative? Furthermore, I do not say just wait. What you do is fight for it, the way all men have fought for ideals down through the ages - men who realized that anything worth achieving involves struggle.

The alternative to waiting is acting. But I see you've corrected yourself.

I might add that what you are saying is that Ayn Rand's achievement was futile and she shouldn't have bothered, since the world didn't immediately embrace her ideas.

Actually, I don't hear anyone talking about Ayn Rand except people in objectivist circles (which don't exist in Croatia, btw). Nobody here has ever heard of her and I don't hear people subconsciously repeating her sentences (like they do those of other philosophers like Marx or Kant). That is why I said that I wouldn't know whether the US can become a capitalist country again by using only the means of rational persuasion, but I would know that my country or any of the nearby countries can't and won't. In any way, I don't even think that the entire Europe can, but that's just an oppinion.

[pvtmorriscsa]

In your post you do not mention your purpose in life. Perhaps you are a writer, and artist...perhaps studying some subject with the intent of writing a book someday... if so, I wish you "Godspeed".

Having said that, on reading your post, I was filled with sadness, saying to myself: "Here is someone who is taking pride in being in low-paying jobs where cash is still used... who has given up on life and on himself... who has no purpose in life, but is pouting at the world and using Objectism as his justification for being a loser." I have seen many like that... it is most tragic.

I hope this is not you.

Best regards

Fifi

Howdy all,

I suppose you could call me a writer and an artist. I do write, but I have not yet been published. Although I sure do love to write making money at it is not a concern. I write for my sake and for no one else. My art follows a similar vein. I do nothing for anyone’s sake but my own. I do not just march to the beat of a different drum. I beat my own drum.

Yes I take pride in my “low paying jobs”, because in fact they are not that low paying, and I take great pride in everything I do. Everything I strive to do, I do well. Sure I am not making millions, but I don’t really see the sense in that anyway. Not that I would mind being rich, but striving to earn more little green pieces of paper that have no real value is not my idea of a way to spend my life.

I know I need those little green lies to survive in the looter society that has been created for me. (Yes I believe in the gold standard. If our economy was based on gold, or something that had real value, I might strive harder.) Money and the earning of it is not the be all and end all of my existence, simply a means to an end.

I have not given up on life that is for sure. I love my life more every day. As for me being a loser, I would suppose that would depend on how you define it. If you think delivering pizza, and refusing to conform to the looter view of society as being a loser, than to you I am a loser..

I however choose to see myself as a winner. I have not had to sell out my mind to survive, and I get to keep more of my income than most people. In fact something like 60% is untaxed. (Go ahead IRS try to prove it.)

More importantly I am happy with who I am, my place in the world, where I have been, and where I am going. Which is more than the vast majority of people can say.

As Ayn Rand once wrote, “My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.”

Those are words I try to live by.

[Fred Weiss]

Actually, I don't hear anyone talking about Ayn Rand except people in objectivist circles (which don't exist in Croatia, btw). Nobody here has ever heard of her....

It wasn't clear to me where you were posting from.

I truly don't know what to tell you because you are in a very bad situation.

Your command of English is pretty good. Have you considered the possibility of translating Ayn Rand into Croatian? Various people have done that in other countries to some effect - Russia and Scandanavia come to mind. Or perhaps figuring out some way to get to the United States?

The only thing I'd advise you is not to fall into a state of total hopelessness.

Out of curiosity, how did you discover Ayn Rand?

Fred Weiss

[stephen_speicher]

It wasn't clear to me where you were posting from.

I truly don't know what to tell you because you are in a very bad situation.

Your command of English is pretty good. Have you considered the possibility of translating Ayn Rand into Croatian? Various people have done that in other countries to some effect - Russia and Scandanavia come to mind. Or perhaps figuring out some way to get to the United States?

The only thing I'd advise you is not to fall into a state of total hopelessness.

As bad as things are in that part of the world, it is my understanding that freedom of speech still exists in Croatia even after the relatively recent political changes. (Source can correct me if the information I read is wrong.) As long as people are free to communicate there is always some hope of effecting a change by way of ideas. If such freedom is absent, then the only way out is the use of force, which means either fight to gain freedom within the country, or lie, cheat and steal to get out of the hellhole.

[F*ckCommunism]

One of the probs i had with Atlas Shrugged is that Galt and the others allowed the country to collapse, instead of standing up and calling a spade a spade. Instead of demanding that justice be done and the pull pushers be over thrown, he stepped back and left them to their own devices... but he had the ability to teach the masses of america that they need to think for themselves, to think rationally... how are people to choose the correct way when the only options they have are the wrong ones?

I think if we start speaking out against irrationality and corruption, then we have a chance of saving the freedoms we strive for. But by just ducking out and deciding the world is to far gone, there is no chance now, it seems to be like giving up... and giving up to me isthe greatest failure...

That is why i get so angered at the low voter turn out in recent years... it seems everyone likes to complain about government, but never turn out to vote. the fact is we have to be responsible enough to voice our beliefs and use our vote to make sure that rational, capable people are ensuring our freedoms are not trampled...

[stephen_speicher]

One of the probs i had with Atlas Shrugged is that Galt and the others allowed the country to collapse, instead of standing up and calling a spade a spade. Instead of demanding that justice be done and the pull pushers be over thrown, he stepped back and left them to their own devices... but he had the ability to teach the masses of america that they need to think for themselves, to think rationally...  how are people to choose the correct way when the only options they have are the wrong ones?

I think you have missed the purpose of the entire plot structure of Atlas Shrugged. You might want to try Andrew Bernstein's Cliff's Notes: Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

[Betsy]

One of the probs i had with Atlas Shrugged is that Galt and the others allowed the country to collapse, instead of standing up and calling a spade a spade. Instead of demanding that justice be done and the pull pushers be over thrown, he stepped back and left them to their own devices... but he had the ability to teach the masses of america that they need to think for themselves, to think rationally...  how are people to choose the correct way when the only options they have are the wrong ones?

In the world of Atlas Shrugged things were too far gone for that to be effective. Galt knew that and Dagny didn't.

I think if we start speaking out against irrationality and corruption, then we have a chance of saving the freedoms we strive for. But by just ducking out and deciding the world is to far gone, there is no chance now, it seems to be like giving up... and giving up to me is the greatest failure...

I agree. Fortunately, our world isn't beyond repair.

That is why i get so angered at the low voter turn out in recent years... it seems everyone likes to complain about government, but never turn out to vote.  the fact is we have to be responsible enough to voice our beliefs and use our vote to make sure that rational, capable people are ensuring our freedoms are not trampled...

I always do vote, but that's fighting the problem "retail" and on a very small scale. It is much more effective to fight the problem "wholesale" by fighting for the right PHILOSOPHY.

[F*ckCommunism]

I always do vote, but that's fighting the problem "retail" and on a very small scale. It is much more effective to fight the problem "wholesale" by fighting for the right PHILOSOPHY.

but if we all went to vote, and voted for rational, intelligent, serious candidiates, it wouldn't be small scale... the whole point of voting is so that the candidate repesents our ideals, so our government isn't one of tyranny and oppression...

think you have missed the purpose of the entire plot structure of Atlas Shrugged. You might want to try Andrew Bernstein's Cliff's Notes: Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

No, i got it, i just disagreed... i read the whole thing, and then read it again... and i still think of it as a case of 'the emperor's new clothes'... Had someone who could see the transparency of the pull-pushers plans, the blatent corruption in the guise of humanity, had someone stood up and called attention to the fact that the whole US was 'naked', maybe the country wouldn't have had to fall in order to restore morality.

[source]

It wasn't clear to me where you were posting from.

I truly don't know what to tell you because you are in a very bad situation.

Your command of English is pretty good. Have you considered the possibility of translating Ayn Rand into Croatian? Various people have done that in other countries to some effect - Russia and Scandanavia come to mind. Or perhaps figuring out some way to get to the United States?

The only thing I'd advise you is not to fall into a state of total hopelessness.

Out of curiosity, how did you discover Ayn Rand?

Fred Weiss

I thought of both - translating Ayn Rand to croatian and moving to the US. I already began working on The Fountainhead after I translated Anthem completely, just to see if I'm any good at that job. I'm quite satisfied with the way I translated it, but I can't get the publishing rights because I couldn't find out who has them for Europe. I contacted the publisher, they told me to contact someone else, I did and that's where I hit the brick wall. No reply came.

As for moving to the US, I'm working on it.

How I found out about Ayn Rand is a very weird story. I'll tell it in the introduction section because it's not the subject of this thread. I don't have the time to do it right away, but I'll do it later.

[pvtmorriscsa]

Howdy,

but if we all went to vote, and voted for rational, intelligent, serious candidiates, it wouldn't be small scale... the whole point of voting is so that the candidate repesents our ideals, so our government isn't one of tyranny and oppression...

That would first suppose that we have rational, intelligent, serious candidates to vote for. In my part of the world, we have two major parties that control the political process. Sadly both parties are made up of looters, and second handers, and despite their trappings they are essentially destroyers. One party would take away my freedom in the name of the common good and the nanny state. The other would take away my freedoms in the name of common good and national security. In fact if I didn't know better I would think there was some back room, good ole boy deal to share power. It seems no matter which group is in power I loose some of my freedoms.

These two parties have such a control over the political process that they in fact control the rules and laws for elections themselves. The current round of campaign laws pretty much makes it impossible for any third party to be viable in any case. No matter how much I wish it. In the upcoming presidential election for example I will be abstaining. I cannot vote for an irrational candidate. I will not choose the lesser of two evils.

No, i got it, i just disagreed... i read the whole thing, and then read it again... and i still think of it as a case of 'the emperor's new clothes'...  Had someone who could see the transparency of the pull-pushers plans, the blatent corruption in the guise of humanity, had someone stood up and called attention to the fact that the whole US was 'naked', maybe the country wouldn't have had to fall in order to restore morality.

Who is going to tell everyone of the emperor's nakedness? In a free state that would be the job of a truly free press. In a country that does not have a free economy, and some would argue a free press this is difficult. All too often the people that point out the transgressions of the government, and the special interest groups are labeled as hate mongers or wackos by the larger portion of our media. As an example look at the UN oil for food scandal. There is very little being said of it in the American press, and what is being said is treated as something minor. Personally I have been aware of it for a while now. At least six months before it hit FOX. Of course with few exceptions the "alternative" news sources are just Toohey's for one side or the other, and cannot be trusted to present a rational view of events.

[Fred Weiss]

I thought of both - translating Ayn Rand to croatian and moving to the US. I already began working on The Fountainhead after I translated Anthem completely, just to see if I'm any good at that job. I'm quite satisfied with the way I translated it, but I can't get the publishing rights because I couldn't find out who has them for Europe. I contacted the publisher, they told me to contact someone else, I did and that's where I hit the brick wall. No reply came.

I had a similar experience contacting the publisher in regard to some reprint rights I wanted to pursue. I would imagine they are not very cooperative where they suspect that the financial pay-off will be small. However, I admit I wasn't very persistent which I suspect is what is needed in these cases. In effect send them the message that it might be worth it to them to give you what you want to just to get rid of you.

You might also try contacting ARI to see if they can offer any assistance.

Failing that contact Leonard Peikoff directly. (He has a web page).

As for moving to the US, I'm working on it.

Good luck with that. I'm rather ashamed at our country's current policies on immigration and that we make it so difficult these days for good people to get in.

How I found out about Ayn Rand is a very weird story. I'll tell it in the introduction section because it's not the subject of this thread. I don't have the time to do it right away, but I'll do it later.

I'll look forward to that. Let us know when you post it.

As a more general point, I'd appreciate it if some of you from overseas would give us that information when you post here. I'm inclined to give people who live in certain culturals and are therefore subjected to much greater amounts of irrationality much more slack in regard to their understanding and questions about Objectivism.

Fred Weiss

[source]

I'll look forward to that. Let us know when you post it.

I've already posted it in the "Introduction" section of the forums.

[Fred Weiss]

I've already posted it in the "Introduction" section of the forums.

I read it. Interesting.

You obviously have a lot of intellectual curiosity and a good ability to separate the rational from the irrational,

You also make me realize how with the continued expansion of the Internet that more and more people worldwide will be able to discover Objectivism - even in the rather serendipitous way that you did.

Fred Weiss