DavidOdden Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Well, after working on a well-crafted reply using this new interface, I discovered the new "unwittingly chuck your work in the trash" option, so my reply will be abbreviated David: Since I specifically stated an exception for danger I am not going to respond to the first part of your argument, since I consider it a straw man argument. You missed the point; danger is not the central issue, evidence is. How much evidence do you need to draw a conclusion? The advocates of the cult of Open Mindedness, who ironically are quick to accuse others of being Closed Minded, seem to require overwhelming evidence before making a judgment, and this is unreasonable. It implies that you have an unearned obligation to other people. By Different I mean unusual, in one way or another. I don't generally tolerate idiocy. If you need more specific examples I will be happy to inform you further. Concrete and plausible examples of where you think being "open minded" is a good thing would be useful. I have argued, you should not pay attention to The Next New Thing (be it physical objects or philosophical ideas for sale) unless you have specific evidence that indicates that it has value to you. Lack of compelling evidence to the contrary is not evidence in support (see "The Arbitrary"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Well, after working on a well-crafted reply using this new interface, I discovered the new "unwittingly chuck your work in the trash" option, so my reply will be abbreviated. Sorry to be OT, but objectivist humor IS alive and well!!!! VES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 You missed the point; danger is not the central issue, evidence is. How much evidence do you need to draw a conclusion? The advocates of the cult of Open Mindedness, who ironically are quick to accuse others of being Closed Minded, seem to require overwhelming evidence before making a judgment, and this is unreasonable. It implies that you have an unearned obligation to other people.I hate to argue with people who basically agree with me, so, I'll simply say that I was in no way in support of accepting limitless amounts of data before drawing a conclusion (that point is taken). I simply think unfounded dismissiveness is ideologically lazy. If you have thought something through then I don't consider it closed minded. For instance, If you already have a good reason not to accept religion, then you certainly don't have to continue to listen to religious arguments. One need not immerse yourself in Catholicism for a lifetime in order say one disagrees with it. I haven't been arguing for the standard case of accusations of closed, or open-mindedness, I simply feel free to define terms by what they would mean logically to me. Ayn Rand may have reworded to "Active Mindedness," which is good, but it doesn't carry the connotation to consider possibilities that may seem wrong at one time, but with more evidence, are definitely right. No amount of Logic will allow you to make that jump, it takes a keen eye for the ability to stretch possibility (something I find Rand is in support of). I'm not going to argue over the semantics between active minded and open-minded further. I just don't feel the need for what generally is meant by something to limit what it can or should mean (with proper explanation). Concrete and plausible examples of where you think being "open minded" is a good thing would be useful. I have argued, you should not pay attention to The Next New Thing (be it physical objects or philosophical ideas for sale) unless you have specific evidence that indicates that it has value to you. Lack of compelling evidence to the contrary is not evidence in support (see "The Arbitrary"). Well, I can't really produce concrete examples on Internet forums, though I would be happy to fill you in on certain experiences. One being a large scraggly looking bushy haired self proclaimed socialist, that I met while working to put myself through college. He was personally one of the finest minds I've ever come across. When asked about his views socialism he gave me a suggesting of reading both "The Jungle," and "Atlas Shrugged" along with other viewpoints on the subject. I later found out that he was working on his Ph.D. in history, specializing in third world dictators. A great many of his views I found palatable including the incorrect strategy of the united states of supporting oppressive dictators. He also predicted the 9-11 terrorist attacks stating that "people in the united states don't understand how much the people in the world really hate us, eventually its going to come to a boil, and probably soon" In August of 01. That statement, and the corresponding argument saved me some money considering I hedged some of my meager but aggressive investments. Though we generally disagreed, often in long sessions of debating, I gave his ideas a fair hearing, and I feel I'm better off for the experience. I consider myself open-minded for listening to him past my original view of him (he's fairly difficult as a person to get to know), even digging into his motivations, and trying to understand them more sincerely. Another experience I had was with a self proclaimed evangelical cristian... She gave me the best insight into questioning the devine inspiration of the bible that I ever recieved. Though I didn't need it they are helpfull argument tips, it was still supriseing, and definitely unexpected. I simply consider that a part of my intellectual curiosity that I would rather like to know how someone thinks rather than simply defining how I think they would think. Comeing to this Forum is also a bit of open-mindedness, My ideas have generally fallen closer to Empiricism rather than Objectivism, though it is sometimes a fine point, and I generall dislike unessisary lables. As I am not completely sure about Objectivism either, I'm simply honestly looking into it. I have read some of Ayn Rands work, and have liked it a great deal, but am no doubt less schooled in it than some here. I also dont yet consider myself competent to judge myself "Objectivist", untill I am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaktree Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Some things have such a high proportion of bad vs. good that it is hard to waste one's time one them, even being "active minded". Yet, if one has the time, the little grains of good hidden among the bad can be illuminating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwakeAndFree Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 If you read the Journals of Ayn Rand, you will see that not many people throughout history matched Ayn Rand's "keen eye" and continous self-correction. You don't need to keep special lookout for things that will prove you wrong. You just need to continuously ask yourself "how do I know what I think I know?", and be focused enough to deal with new information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrentRolfe Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Grrrr... Prometheus said what I said, but in two sentences. I need to be more concise. VES RationalCop, You could have left out "I need to be more concise" Regards, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwakeAndFree Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 And the Grrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsalt Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 I don't think that "active-minded" vs. "open-minded" is mere semantics. Active-minded is the more precise term, describing what is actually happening when a rational mind is considering new information, and as an abtraction, it doesn't float around in contradictions the way that "open-minded" does. It has been my experience that those who use the term "open-minded" don't mean anything like being actively engaged. They seem to mean that one's mind ought to be like an open land-fill, accepting anything that gets dumped into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rojo Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Wasn't the expression used by Ayn Rand "active minded" in philosophy : who needs it ? Yes it is. Also, like the initiator of this topic, I don't like the expression "Open Minded" either for all that it implies: that someone should seriously consider anything. Should that be the case - that someone would consider anything - then thy'd never be able to move past the axioms of identity (e.g., A is A) and existence (i.e., Reality Exists). . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kufr Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Dont be open minded, dont be closed minded, be reason minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgessLau Posted September 9, 2004 Report Share Posted September 9, 2004 Okay, lately, this idea that people throw around called "being open minded" has been irritating me. ... So, I'm hoping that some of you can help me fully understand why I don't like this "Open Minded" idea. What are some of your thoughts on it? Since this forum is dedicated, in part, to the study of Objectivism, the philosophy which Ayn Rand created, you might examine her comments directly. For example, she described "open mind" as a "dangerous little catch phrase" that is "a very ambiguous term." Further, she advises: "What objectivity and the study of philosophy require is not an 'open mind' but an active mind ..." that is, one willing to examine issues critically. See "'Open Mind' and 'Closed Mind'," The Ayn Rand Lexicon, for excerpts taken from "Philosophical Detection," Philosophy: Who Needs It, pp. 21 (paperback) and 25 (hardback). Having an active mind, however, does not mean continuously re-examining certainties. No one needs to re-examine "existence exists." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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