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This is my first post, so i might as well introduce myself

I have been a capitalist all my life. I always felt that theft was wrong regardless. It wasn't until I read Atlas Shrugged that I found my calling as an objectivist. I still support the Libertarian party, even though the two believes are founded on fundamental (but similar) differences.

But it sucks when i debate online and I am the only objectivist and I have a debate going against three or four socialists. It's very frustrating because I wanted at least a forum where there are other people with ideals like mine. So I typed objectivist forum in google and I found this site. I hope my time here will be as enlightening as reading an Ayn Rand book.

My question is this:

In my unending debate with the socialists, Sweden is almost always brought up. Sweden seems to be the poster child for socialism. Universal health care, low unemployment, yada yada yada. I know absolutely nothing about Sweden and any research I attempt only gives me sources telling me how great a place Sweden is to live.

So how should I counter the Sweden case? how do you counter anyone who brings up Sweden?

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In my unending debate with the socialists, Sweden is almost always brought up. Sweden seems to be the poster child for socialism. Universal health care, low unemployment, yada yada yada. I know absolutely nothing about Sweden and any research I attempt only gives me sources telling me how great a place Sweden is to live.

So how should I counter the Sweden case? how do you counter anyone who brings up Sweden?

One thing to point out is that what they have going for them is low unemployment, a monthly payment for having kids, free schooling and hypersubsidized health-care, period. Everything comes at a cost, and the cost of everything over there is much higher than it is here. Gas is probably 3-4 times what it costs in the US, cars cost twice that, forget about beer, etc. The Swedish medical system suffers from the same problems that the British medical system suffers from, namely unbelievable bureaucracy and long waits for simple operations.

The earlier low Swedish unemployment was artificial and the piper had to be paid around the early 90's when unemployment went up to 8%. By 2000 they got that down to 4%. But let me also point out that the current employment rate is 78% meaning that 78% of the working-age population have jobs, which suggests that the figures are being fiddled with in some manner. All in all, unemployment rates do not report anything meaningful.

I think the main reason why the system hasn't collapsed is that Atlas hasn't shrugged yet, and productive people remain willing to sacrifice themselves in exchange for staying in Sweden (it's not an unpleasant place). It's a very clever form of socialism, constantly bleeding the citizenry but slowly enough that so far they still have blood pumping through their veins.

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actually, it's up to 80% now. That happens to be one tidbit i know ;)

thank you DavidOdden, I am a firm proponent that the best way to stregnthen one's argument is to pit it against other arguements in an equal medium. I usually end up being flamed and called a thuggish pig (further reinforcing my opinion that socialism is an irrational arguement)

but nonetheless, the more information I have, the better I feel, so keep it coming guys :P

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Hi there.

Things are not as fine as they may seem. Have you ever investigated the public school system, to which the alternatives are so few? The books are old and worn out, politically biased and there aren't enough of them. The whole apparatus reeks of ever-degrading socialist repressed condition. The teachers are nervous during class. After class they fight about teachers' "rights" and of being oppressed.

The police force is severely undermanned and in some areas undereducated.

The public health "care" system is overrun by budget problems and staff shortage.

The system is inefficient, we know that. How much could we do if the system was effective? Much more. Read and re-read what DavidOdden wrote, especially this part: "It's a very clever form of socialism, constantly bleeding the citizenry but slowly enough that so far they still have blood pumping through their veins."

It is as true as it gets. People do get by. Do you want to merely get by? I for one live to the fullest extent that I will enable myself to.

Can you imagine what you could do with the money that the government take, were you to get to keep it for yourself instead? Every monthly salary check from January to August would be added, yes - added - to your wallet. Take your time to think about just how much you really pay and how little you really get from it all. That is, unless you are a wellfare taker. The wellfare takers are the most privileged people in Sweden.

This is but a fraction. I could certainly write more. Much, much more.

Now, you said you were debating with socialists. First off, frankly, don't expect ever to be able to budge their ideology one bit, just as you wouldn't expect to convince a devoted Christian to become unreligious. You can spend some time trying to inform the socialists, but I advice you to lay off your trials if they do not respond.

Second, don't even think about having any hope that the large mass of intellectual sloths will understand. Talk to those who are at least remotely neutral and/or somewhat willing to listen and learn. Unfortunately, they are not as frequent as one would wish them to be.

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I don't know about Sweden, but from reports I've read the welfare state in Germany is starting to unravel. Out of controls costs are forcing even the socialists to propose cut backs, prompting massive street demonstrations by their erstwhile supporters, such as the labor unions. I suspect it's a harbinger of things to come in the other European welfare states.

The demographics in all of the advanced, industrial countries, with longevity continually increasing along with advances in medicine, is spiralling costs out of control.

It's possible that just as we were surprised by the sudden implosion of communism, the same thing may yet happen with the welfare state.

Fred Weiss

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This is a reply I posted on another forum some time ago in response to the cries of "Ever heard of Sweden," from the wannabe socialists in the USA:

Wannabe socialists have iconically posted “Ever heard of Sweden?” as intellectual ammunition for their socialist political/economic assertions in regards to the future of the United States. They pose the question and thereby assume a high (albeit unearned) moral tenor to deflect criticism of their political/economic assertions.

“Ever heard of Sweden?” implies that Swedes live in a blissful state of utopian socialism, free of the evils of capitalism, from whence they escaped using some scientific recombination of Karl Marx and John Maynard Keynes. “It follows,” the wannabe socialists imply, “that if the United States would simply follow the same scientific mix of political/economic philosophy that we too could escape evil capitalism and find refuge in socialist utopian bliss.”

The wannabe socialists choose simply to ignore reality. They ignore the reality of Swedish history. They ignore the reality of U. S. history. They consider histories as mere “social constructs,” malleable to their needs.

The wannabe socialists ignore physical differences between the two nations. They ignore the differences in population demographics. They ignore philosophical differences between the two peoples. Wannabe socialists consider human beings interchangeable units.

Sweden, like the rest of Europe, emerged into the renaissance world from centuries of war, anarchy, monarchy (benign and despotic), and feudalism. Enlightenment thinking pushed the Swedes, and the rest of Europe, in a philosophical direction towards the ideals of the “free man,” and the “rights of the free man;” towards the ideals – not to the ideals. A man could be “free” yet still subject to the often-arbitrary authority of the nobleman, the state. The “rights of the free man” were often “duties” imposed on the state regarding the welfare of the “free man.” Thus Sweden came of age as a modern nation moving towards the ideal of the “free man,” or as he came to be known in the new world, the “individual.”

The United States came into being and became a modern nation on a wholly different ideal. American intellectuals, from their position in these far away colonial entities, were able to see the shortcomings of European ideas of “ free - yet subject to.” Somehow they mustered the know how and the strength to forcibly break away from political domination and to some lesser degree, intellectual domination. They proposed a radical new concept in government; a government subject to law and to the governed. The idea was that government was instituted for the protection of the natural rights of the individual. “Government has no inherent ‘right’ to exist,” they proclaimed. Government had no rights at all, only obligations to protect individual rights.

It has been said that America’s founders were doers, men of action, more so than intellectuals. As such they failed to develop a comprehensive philosophy as support for moral underpinnings of their creation. Americans, by default, absorbed European philosophy; the philosophy and the morality of Kant’s altruism. The inherent conflict between the founders ideals of limited government, created for protection of individual rights, and the self-sacrificial ideals of Kant’s altruistic morality came to the fore, and the political battle to determine the role of government in American’s lives was engaged.

The physical differences between the U. S. and Sweden are enormous. Sweden approaches 500,000 square kilometers of area, the United States nearly 10,000,000. Sweden’s population is some over 8,000,000 people, about the population of New York City. The U. S. approaches 280,000,000 individuals. The U.S. has a higher population growth rate, both in births per 1000, and immigration rates. Our racial/ethnic demographic makeup is much more complex than Sweden. Our government’s official demographic policy is one of balkanization, encouraging distinct ethnicities, and religious groupings to form and become politically active. We are no longer a melting pot. Sweden is 94% Evangelical Lutheran.

The point is that Sweden is a much more homogenous country – both racially and religiously/philosophically. They approach their socialism openly and honestly as part of a journey from what was to what will be. Recent political events in Sweden suggest that Swedes are still engaged in the eternal struggle to find the “individual.” In no way, by no stretch of the imagination are Swedes standing still in the socialist utopian bliss. Much of their current prosperity is due to political/economic shifts towards laissez- faire capitalism; privatization of industry and removal of minimum wage laws. Again I stress “towards these ideals – not yet to them.” They understand this is progress.

American wannabe socialists are not open and honest. They do not proclaim that they are Socialists. Instead they proclaim that they are liberals, or moderates, or greens, or feminists, or conservatives, and full of nothing but good intentions, and righteous indignation at the miserable lot of the most prosperous, the freest and the most generous people the world has ever known.

The wannabe socialists use every form of envy known to breed hate among people: black against white, rich against poor, young against old, men against women, children against their parents. The wannabe socialists seek to turn the United States away from its history, away from its heritage as, “…in its founding principles, the only moral nation ever created.”

The wannabe socialists would have us regress to some mythical economic/political reality that never existed anywhere, anytime. They choose to ignore the reality that the American economic system has raised more people up out of poverty than all other economic systems in the history of the world combined. They choose to ignore that people come to this country from every conceivable social and economic condition. All they ask for is the freedom to be whatever they can be – to the best of their ability, ambition and desires. Liberty is what they seek – they are fleeing from every form of collectivism known to man.

So all you wannabe socialists, keep up the vindictiveness, keep your heads in the sand, and continue to ignore reality. Perhaps you will succeed. I hope not – it would be so terrible for all humanity if the principles upon which this nation was founded were lost.

But please – no more “Ever heard of Sweden?” Enough already. It doesn’t fly.

Hope it'll help you find a direction to go.

Best wishes,

Denali

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wow, I feel right at home here! thanks guys, this has been an enlightening post.

the way I see it, my opinion is like a hunk of (Reardin:) )metal. full of impurities due to the fact that I have not fully refined my theory. The hammer of socialism pounds away at that hunk, but with each stike, they temper a purer hunk of metal. Eventually, when all the impurities of my opinion have been tempered out, I will have a strong pure hunk of high quality metal, ready to stand up to anything that gets thrown my way. idealistic and kind of silly i know, but it's the best analogy I can come up with :)

I don't presume to know all there is about objectivism, I still have only a basic grasp of the areas of metaphysics and epipstemology, as my area of interest leans more towards the political aspect of objectivism. But hey, that's why I came here :)

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If you would understand Objectivist politics (or any politics, for that matter), you need metaphysics and epistemology. They are the foundation for everything else and it will be impossible to understand or discuss politics in any reasoned way without them. I suggest that you read Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, by Dr. Leonard Peikoff for all the basics in every area of Objectivist philosophy. (You will see this book referred to as "OPAR" in this forum.)

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Since I am born in Sweden and live in Sweden, I think I can properly testify on how it really is here in Sweden.

To begin with I'd like to make some of the things some of you already have mentioned a little bit clearer: the Swedish health care system is bad. Concerning the Swedish health care system I would recommend you to read this article written by a Swedish economist: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/johnsson1.html - People are actually dying while they are waiting to get health care!

I would also like to make clear that the main reason Sweden "works" is NOT because of the socialistic policies in some aspects of the Swedish society. Sure the income taxes are high, and surely it's hard for many like me to get a job due to all the labor regulations and pro-union legislature. But one must not forget that the taxation on corporations and capitalists are relatively low. Further on it should be noted that the very reason Sweden is a relatively speaking wealthy nation is not because of the socialistic policies the social democrats have imposed during their 70 year in power. No, our wealth comes from the years when our economy was freer than it's been since the 1970s. In the 19th century our economy was liberated and what followed during the years 1870-1970 was a hundred years of great growth in our economy. It was the economic growth during the freer years that made Sweden one of the wealthiest nations in the world by 1970. Only the USA and Schweiz were wealthier. In other words, it was our high degree of economic freedom that made Sweden wealthy. Not our socialistic policies, but DESPITE them! Indeed before the 1970s the size of the Swedish government was about the same as in the US, i.e. about 20-30 per cent of GNP. During the 1970s the welfare state expanded greatly and since about 1980 the size of the government and the so-called "public sector" have instead been about 50-60 per cent of GNP.

I would also like to comment on the low official unemployment numbers. As some of you already have mentioned, our official unemployment were as high as 8 per cent about a decade ago. Officially it's gone down to about 4-5% nowadays. But, that's only the official numbers. Most estimates here in Sweden suggest that the real unemployment number is much higher. In the early 1990s Sweden went through huge economic problems and the official unemployment rate went up to about 8-9 per cent. But when you add to those numbers all those people who were placed in different "unemployment programs" (which by the way predominantly consisted of different types of "re-education programs"; most of these programs never led to any new jobs, but they did improved the unemployment statistics because here in Sweden you're not considered as unemployed as long as you study, even though you are part of the workforce, and even though the reason you're studying in the first place is in order to improve your chances to get a job!) the real unemployment numbers went up to about 15 per cent!

Sweden isn't a "Socialistic" paradise. Sweden is, just like the US, a MIXED economy, or as great economists like Ludwig von Mises or George Reisman would have said:"hampered market economies". Let me quote Dr Reisman:

"In these three countries [israel, Sweden and the UK], the economic system has always been characterized by private ownership of the means of production - not only de jure, but de facto. This private ownership, to be sure, has labored under all sorts of restrictions and prohibitions, but still it has been private ownership, and production in these countries has been carried out primarily at the initiative of private owners for the sake of private profits. The philosophy of the ruling political parties of these countries may have been socialism and socialism may have been their ultimate goal, but their actual practices, up to now [1996], has not been socialism. The correct description of these economies is von Mises's expression 'hampered market economy,' and that description applies to the economy of the United States, too." (Capitalism: A Treatise On Economics, p. 264)

If you got ANY questions concerning Sweden and it's socialistic aspects, let me know I and will try to answer them to the best of my knowledge.

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I just got a link to this thread from a friend and just had to register. Hopefully I will find the rest of this forum as interesting.

As you probably would have guessed i´m also from sweden, and sadly I have to say it´s a socialist paradise - or at least, it´s going that way. I think you can imagine what i mean by that. The reason why so many socalists admire the political system is because it´s such a complex piece of "engineering". Making everything work as good as it does is a very impressive feat, in a very sad and tragic way. However, telling you everything that´s screwed up in this country would be too time consuming, so let me just comment on some of the things earlier mentioned:

Education and healthcare: The number of private actors is kept to a minimum. When it comes to education, however, I would say the biggest problems are of a philosophical nature. Even if the schools are poor, money won´t help the students learn. And even if the teachers are to few, more teachers won´t improve the quality of their teachings.

The healthcare system is extremely bureucratic and can´t handle the pressure. You can, for example, sit in the emergency waiting room for five hours with a crushed ankle - like my brother had to do. Old people are, in some places, litterally rotting away in their beds because noone has got the time to see to their needs. And while the public healthcare fails politicians talk about how important it is that public actors won´t compete and win customers from their precious little public hell. Private actors also get punished by unions for being to good. Oh, and speaking about unoins; here we have the right to join any unoin, but not necesseraily the right not to join them.

Taxes: The income tax for the middle class is around 30%(richer people pay more taxes). But then your employer pays tax just for hiring you, and you pay 25% tax on everything you buy(with some exceptions). I think the totalt tax pressure is around 70% for a normal income.

Prices: Gas costs ~$1,6. A new BMW 525 costs ~$54,000. I´m counting that $1 is 6,5 kronor, so you can just compare the prices. Cars are, by the way, one of the most expensive things around here. Politicians hate them and they are probably few who even know how to drive them. It´s sometimes tough being an enthusiast...

Something I think tells more about the prices here are the food prices, which are the highest in europe. Beer, wine, booze etc. is extremely expensive due to government monopoly and taxation. However, that does not stop people from drinking.

Why Atlas hasn´t shrugged yet: Unfortunatley, there´s no Galt´s Gulch. Atlas doesen´t have much choice but to go on wherever he is. There´s not much use to move to another country.

Now I hope you will ask lots of interesting questions. I also hope that you will excuse my rusty english - i´m a little out of practice.

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knast and Red:

I, too, thank you for your information.

Nothing was mentioned about housing. What is the cost of shelter? Is housing subsidized?

Since car ownership is discouraged by policy, what are the alternative modes of transportation? What do most people use for personal transport?

So the government has a monopoly on spirits. First they send you to drink with their regulations and their restrictions and their taxes, then they monopolize the drink. Well, no one ever said socialists were stupid!

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Oops, sorry I missed that "little" detail about gas prices. It is, unfortunatley, per litre. I sure wouldnt mind if the price were per american gallon.

The alternative transportations are bus, train and subway. In the larger cities like stockholm it even works fine, if you can live with some delays. The result of this, however, is not that people drive less(unless there a big advatage with the alternative transportations). I think driving your own car is highly prioritized by most people, and to counter some of the gas prices you can always buy a car with good fuel economy.

Housing is very expensive, at least near or in the cities. Some years ago the politicians came up with the idea that you can put a tax on houses. People were told that it only was a temporary sollution to solve the budget. Today it´s still there, and you rarely hear any complains. The main reason for the high prices is however that there´s to few houses. I´m not quite sure why, but one of the reasons is probably that politicians wont sell land to build on. It´s hard to get a permit to build.

It´s hard to tell exactly where the prices lie, because it varies so much depending on where you wanna live. In the more expensive places in stockholm you can get an apartment, 2-3 rooms, for ~$1,000,000. In the suburbs the same sized apartment would cost somwhere between $20,000-$100,000 - all depending on the neighbourhood, cloesness to the city etc. If you just want to rent the same apartment it would perhaps cost you $1000/month. Of course you can also live in a smaller place, maybe for students, which can cost less than half.

Houses in or near civilization can cost from $250,000 and up.

Remember this is just an aproximation to give you some kind of and idea what the prices are. It´s not very accurate since there are so many factors that effect them.

Oh, and just so I don´t give you the picture of an socialist hell, I must say that life is very good despite stupid politics. It´s not an Soviet Socialist Republic, we just need more laissez-faire. :lol:

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"I, too, thank you for your information."

No problem! I'm only glad I can enlighten you ;D

"Nothing was mentioned about housing. What is the cost of shelter?"

Housing is probably, when compared to some countries, a bit expensive. Exactly how relatively expensive the housing is compared with other countries, I don't know. But this much I can tell you. Concerning the market for rent apartments; we do have, just like most other western countries, rent controls. It's a bit hard for me to describe exactly how the rent controls work here in Sweden. It's not like the government have said: "the rent in apartments like these will be for $200, and for apartments like these it'll be $400, etc". No, our rent control regulations are a bit more "sophisticated" and thus also a bit more complicated. Anyhow, in the end, it doesn't really matters since the results are basically the same as with any other form of rent controls: shortages in the supply of apartments, *very* long lines for apartments, almost no new house construction, etc. Among other factors that have helped to create this situation is of course such things like high taxes on basically everything related to building, strong labor unions (which drives up the salaries for the construction workers), etc.

If you want an apartment here in Sweden you'll either have to be willing to out bid other people on the black market, which due to the shortages helps to drives up the price for an apartment to extreme levels. And since the contracts are illegal, the owner of the apartment, knowing there are a lot more customers out there just like you, willing to pay huge amounts of money for an apartment, will often not hesitate to get you to move away. So if you're in bad luck he (or she) will start to harass you until you finally give up and move away, and then he'll sell the apartment again and the whole process begins once again! If you think this sounds horrible (which it of course is!) then you should consider that it's basically either this or be willing to wait in YEARS for an apartment. There are some cases were you have people who have been waiting for more than a decade and still haven't got an apartment. Housing have been a huge problem here in Sweden since the rent controls were imposed decades ago.

Since the rent control regulations are a bit more "sophisticated" the rents are not exactly the same everywhere. In essence the rents are controlled through the following procedure: the public owned housing companies will set their rents based on an, as far as I have understood it, arbitrary set of rules, and no other private owned housing companies are allowed to put their rents higher than this. Due to this, the rents in different parts of the cities and in some parts of Sweden as a whole may in average be a bit lower. So for instsance, in a city like Malmo the rents may be lower than in Gothenberg, or vice versa. In general think the rents are relatively low in the smaller cities/villages, when compared to the bigger cities. So in some parts in Sweden you will be able to get an apartment fast and to a relatively (e.g. when compared to larger cities) low rent, but then again there's a trade off: you'll probably end up in a tiny boring village in the middle of nowhere.

"Is housing subsidized?"

Though I'm not sure, I don't think we got any subsidizes for housing anymore. I do know we've had some during the 1980s and earlier, but I don't know exactly how they worked or to what extent they were imposed. But I don't think the rents ever have been subsidized. The only thing I think have been subsidized is the loans for building a rent. But I'm not sure. I can check up later, if you're willing to wait for a more specific answer than this.

"Since car ownership is discouraged by policy, what are the alternative modes of transportation? What do most people use for personal transport?"

See Reds answer.

Edited by knast
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knast and Red: Thank you both for the information. It was very enlightening.

tortured one: I think you have plenty of ammunition now, at least a good beginning.

I'd read both TechCentral articles before. When I read about the socialized health systems existing in other countries, I ask myself why anyone would be pushing for the same in America. They keep saying that we're behind. Behind in what? Long waiting periods? Poor quality of care? Needless pain and suffering? What?

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I went to England for a short visit about 8 years ago. In all that I experienced on that trip, the one image that has stuck in my mind more than any other is of aging women. They were everywhere, and yet I didn't see ONE who seemed over the age of, say, 60, who wasn't hobbling on a cane. Here in America, such a sight is really relatively rare. Sure, you see women and men with canes or walkers, but typically much older and toting oxygen tanks, etc.--suffering from other ailments. In America, walking is not considered a luxury.

I asked my English step-aunt about the gimpy-old-lady phenomenon. She explained to me that while they are taxed up the yin-yang for every random thing (think: building material of your decrepit old house and the number of windows in it), healthcare is essentially limited to "necessary" procedures. So, while you will spend your life paying for other peoples' pacemakers, brain clips and cleft palettes, when you fall and break your hip at age 60, the government will send you your complimentary cane with a jolly "thanks, citizen #199068344567!" Just like Kira's experiences in WTL, the people are all subject to the life that the government has designated for them through government control of health care.

The result of this: Those who have any money left after taxes (not so many) fly to freer-market oases on far continents to have done "unnecessary" procedures. THEY get happy endings.

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I am living in Sweden at the moment. I studied and worked in America between 1997 - 2002. My long-range goal is to return to the Land of Opportunity - America.

Here is a post that could be of interest:

POOR EUROPEAN UNION VERSUS THE RICH UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

All the Best,

Martin Lindeskog - American in Spirit.

Gothenburg, Sweden (a.k.a the socialist "paradise").

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I am living in Sweden at the moment. I studied and worked in America between 1997 - 2002. My long-range goal is to return to the Land of Opportunity - America.

Here is a post that could be of interest:

POOR EUROPEAN UNION VERSUS THE RICH UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

All the Best,

Martin Lindeskog - American in Spirit.

Gothenburg, Sweden (a.k.a the socialist "paradise").

I must say that is a pretty interesting link you got there. I would suggest people read it. Thanks for the heads up.

Furthermore with your attitude you are exactly the kind of immigrant that is needed by America.

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My long-range goal is to return to the Land of Opportunity - America.

Martin Lindeskog - American in Spirit.

Gothenburg, Sweden (a.k.a the socialist "paradise").

Martin, don't ever give up trying to get back. Every one of my current employees is an immigrant. It's funny, but of the last 8 or 9 people I've hired all came from El Salvador, Mexico, Pakistan, India, and China. Almost all of them have either gone on to management positions or ran with the American Dream and own their own businesses.

Maybe it's a stereotype of native Americans but I've found in my experience that immigrants have a better or more stark realization of what opportunities are here than your "average" ( I hate using that word but can't think of a better one right now) native. I like to think that I've been afforded the opportunity to hire the best and brightest the world has to offer.

There are enough people here who think like me that care about getting motivated intelligent people regardless of where they are from. Eventually that someone will hire and sponsor you. Just remember to not the the people at the immigration department get you down.

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