MisterSwig Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 I haven't thought this trough too much, but it seems that some of the desire to change people is because of split between emotions and thoughts ... It is a fact that people have a body and a mind. You might be attracted to the body very much, but not so much the mind. If you can change the person's mind, then you have a match. If you can't change their mind, then I think you should walk away and continue searching. Trying to change someone's mind is often much easier than searching and searching for a pre-existing match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Trying to change someone's mind is often much easier than searching and searching for a pre-existing match. And when it truly is easier, then I would wholly advocate it. However, learning how to evaluate situations to understand if you really can change someone's mind is the tricky part. I'm just saying that I see many people who overestimate their ability to bring someone around who is very far away from their current point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 I'm just saying that I see many people who overestimate their ability to bring someone around who is very far away from their current point of view. Especially when there's a hot body involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Especially when there's a hot body involved? zactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenure Posted June 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 It's funny that. I'd disagree when it comes to Objectivism. I mean yes, people can be very deeply entrenched in evasive thinking, in cynicism and the like. However, the basic facts of life are accepted, if not intellectually, then by action of most people. Someone could claim that they believe that man is driven purely by instincts, and yet they will still endeavor to learn how to do things, despite believing that man is born with innate knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenure Posted September 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Just an update: I finally split up with her. I said outright to her, that I wasn't gaining any value from the relationship, that I felt like she was just making me feel guilty for who I am and what I want, especially when she says stuff like, "My friends convinced me you're an evil influence on me" and "I've realised that maybe you're not right for me. I saw you as something different from others, but it probably wasn't different in a good way." What really upsets me the most, is that she just finished reading The Fountainhead. That book means so much to me, and the fact that she can just shrug off the importance of it, really upsets me. It might sound a bit bizarre to not like someone for their taste in art, but the fact that she thinks, "Thr3e" is a gripping novel, whilst The Fountainhead is, "really great, but, it doesn't really effect me" (my paraphrasing, not a direct quotation) is enough. I'm getting sick of the way I walk into these things. I'm sick of accepting second best, and lumping on guilt-trip after guilt-trip onto myself, expecting myself to bear weights and compromises and just ignore them, because there might be some money or, as Inspector put it, a hot body on the otherside. Why is it, that I can't find someone I care about? Why is there some great fault in all the women I meet, in all the friends I keep? My best friend made me feel sick the other day, when he started mocking me because of my aspirations and such that I put on my profile on Facebook. I don't think I'm over-exaggerating when I say that there are so many people who are detrimental to my lives. I keep on hearing that there's some value in most people, and that even if they hold dichotomies and such, that it's possible to get a value out of them. I just want to begin with the value of some sanity to begin with! But I don't whether I just look at people wrong or what. She makes me smile sometimes and I'm happy, and I enjoy talking to her and being with her; and other times my mind is locked in a feeling of quiet resentment and I just want to get out - so I did. If I've made the wrong decision, then I've made the wrong decision. I've spent the past five months wondering whether I've made the wrong decision with my last ex, and I probably will with this one. I don't know how you ever gain closure on these things, but I'm just glad to be rid of the pressure of trying to maintain something, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 You're starting to sound like me, Tenure. I consider that a sign of growth in maturity; a sign that you've come to a greater understanding of the world and the worthiness of a lot of the people in it. Opinions may vary on that one, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 But consider this: I have more friends than I can even keep up with. Call me lucky if you like, but I say it's proof that it can be done, even with the people of today. Of course, casting aside the chaff is the first step to finding them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Just an update: I finally split up with her. I said outright to her, that I wasn't gaining any value from the relationship, that I felt like she was just making me feel guilty for who I am and what I want, especially when she says stuff like, "My friends convinced me you're an evil influence on me" and "I've realised that maybe you're not right for me. I saw you as something different from others, but it probably wasn't different in a good way." I'm getting sick of the way I walk into these things. I'm sick of accepting second best, and lumping on guilt-trip after guilt-trip onto myself, expecting myself to bear weights and compromises and just ignore them, because there might be some money or, as Inspector put it, a hot body on the otherside. hmmm. Well, Tenure, I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Figuring out the cause and effect of personal relationships is a difficult thing. One does not understand principles and then simply go out and get it right. One has to integrate concrete experiences with the principles, see them in action to truly be able to fully understand the power of the principles. So look at the difference between this attempt and the last one. 18 months, vs. what 3 for this one? Also, you had some rational concerns going into this one, you examined the relationship prior to attempting it. Then within the relationship you tried sharing some things that you knew were important to you, i.e. you tried making explicit your values for her to see and evaluate. And you were dissapointed by her evaluation, but you realized that without some common ground on those values, it wasn't going to work for you. And you made the decision to leave. Yes, you may think you compromised, and put up with stuff and made concessions, but it really only was 3 months, right? Can you say you compromised for her, or to give the relationship enough time to evaluate? I think you've had a resounding success, sir. Congratulations! Why is it, that I can't find someone I care about? Why is there some great fault in all the women I meet, in all the friends I keep? My best friend made me feel sick the other day, when he started mocking me because of my aspirations and such that I put on my profile on Facebook. Because people who share your values, and can explicitly, consistently express them to you, are rare. It's sort of like you walking down a brook, picking up pebbles and wondering why you cant find a diamond. What you have done in this experience is exactly what you need to do more of, judging, asking yourself, Where do I look? What do I look for? and how do I quickly evaluate something that wont work? I don't think I'm over-exaggerating when I say that there are so many people who are detrimental to my lives. I keep on hearing that there's some value in most people, and that even if they hold dichotomies and such, that it's possible to get a value out of them. I just want to begin with the value of some sanity to begin with! If they really are detrimental, then you are doing yourself a disservice by investing so much time with them. Most people will only ever support you in a mixed way, so if you are intelligent enought to be able to recognize the support from the non-support, and can design your relatinoship such that it accentuates one and downplays the other then they might be worth keeping, but you have to decide that. But I don't whether I just look at people wrong or what. She makes me smile sometimes and I'm happy, and I enjoy talking to her and being with her; and other times my mind is locked in a feeling of quiet resentment and I just want to get out - so I did. If I've made the wrong decision, then I've made the wrong decision. I've spent the past five months wondering whether I've made the wrong decision with my last ex, and I probably will with this one. I don't know how you ever gain closure on these things, but I'm just glad to be rid of the pressure of trying to maintain something, to say the least. see. Resounding success. You made the decision. You will accept the consequences of it. and you feel it was the right decision for you. COngratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatiq Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Truly from experience YOUNG man: Bide your time, and find someone who is NOT religous! Admiration of personality traits is something one can't avoid... "her eyes", "her humor", "her intelligence", etc. However, these things are traits one can learn without very much interaction. What you should truly consider befor you delve into your emotions based on values you see in these people at first, are the predictable anti-values they will invariably have as well: irrationalism, emotionalism, bigotry, altruism, dogma! How long can you tolerate the stupid things that a Christian will invariably say to you? How long can you dance around statements or direct questions from someone you are involved with, where you know the answer they want to hear, but according to your rational morality - you can't possibly give? How long can you live with a person knowing they vote for legislature that is immoral, and damages your life... your world? How long can you truly maintain respect for an individual whom you will over time come to regard as a troglodyte? These sorts of relationships are invariably painful, tiresome, and DOOMED! Consider these things that I have said to you, and reason for yourself. True it is that there are much more people under the broader spectrum of the bell curve at this moment in time, and you will have to wait longer for true companionship. However, I submit to you that the wait is worth it; and the alternative is horror to a truly rational being. Charles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgoist Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Just an update: I finally split up with her. I said outright to her, that I wasn't gaining any value from the relationship, that I felt like she was just making me feel guilty for who I am and what I want, especially when she says stuff like, "My friends convinced me you're an evil influence on me" and "I've realised that maybe you're not right for me. I saw you as something different from others, but it probably wasn't different in a good way." What really upsets me the most, is that she just finished reading The Fountainhead. That book means so much to me, and the fact that she can just shrug off the importance of it, really upsets me. It might sound a bit bizarre to not like someone for their taste in art, but the fact that she thinks, "Thr3e" is a gripping novel, whilst The Fountainhead is, "really great, but, it doesn't really effect me" (my paraphrasing, not a direct quotation) is enough. I'm getting sick of the way I walk into these things. I'm sick of accepting second best, and lumping on guilt-trip after guilt-trip onto myself, expecting myself to bear weights and compromises and just ignore them, because there might be some money or, as Inspector put it, a hot body on the otherside. Why is it, that I can't find someone I care about? Why is there some great fault in all the women I meet, in all the friends I keep? My best friend made me feel sick the other day, when he started mocking me because of my aspirations and such that I put on my profile on Facebook. I don't think I'm over-exaggerating when I say that there are so many people who are detrimental to my lives. I keep on hearing that there's some value in most people, and that even if they hold dichotomies and such, that it's possible to get a value out of them. I just want to begin with the value of some sanity to begin with! But I don't whether I just look at people wrong or what. She makes me smile sometimes and I'm happy, and I enjoy talking to her and being with her; and other times my mind is locked in a feeling of quiet resentment and I just want to get out - so I did. If I've made the wrong decision, then I've made the wrong decision. I've spent the past five months wondering whether I've made the wrong decision with my last ex, and I probably will with this one. I don't know how you ever gain closure on these things, but I'm just glad to be rid of the pressure of trying to maintain something, to say the least. I've had, not really a relationship in the sexual sense, but a very close friendship with a young Christian girl, recently. It's that kind of thing where you lay your feelings bare and hope for the best. We were both mutually interested in eachother after we started to talk more, but we couldn't really ever get something real going. And now, it would seem, she refuses to officially " go out " with me because I am an Atheist. She also constantly tells me how she prays for God to save my soul from Hell. I ask her if she knows how that feels. To be told by someone you've exposed your emotions too that she believes you will justifiably be burning for eternity. She's never been able to defend her beliefs when I confront them, yet outright tells me I am going to Hell, with all confidence. I am not an easy guy to get really opened up. I've probably told 3 people in my life that I loved them, though I've met plenty. I told her how I felt betrayed by her, and how she can let something she can't justify affect us in such a way. I truly believe she's a victim of all out brainwashing. She seems to think if she does not have God, she is useless...That she could not be a productive being if God were not the driving force behind her actions and morals. It's come to the point where I don't even want to speak to her. So, I know where you're coming from and I'm glad you ended it. No one with a sense of pride can take that line of shit for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenure Posted September 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 I truly believe she's a victim of all out brainwashing. She seems to think if she does not have God, she is useless... I'm reading 'The Psychology of Self-Esteem', and just got part the bit where he mentions brain-washing, and how it involves lumping someone with a sense of guilt - not an earned guilt, but an unearned guilt, an innate guilt, with the aim being to destroy their self-confidence in their own reasoning (You are a lowly mortal - you don't even deserve God's love!) thus leaving their brain so 'open' to any idea, that as it's been quite eloquently put, "their minds are so open, they fall out the back of their skulls". I'll hopefully respond more tomorrow, to everything everyone's said - things are hectic at the moment, so much to say, but I've been working a 12 hour day today. Got up at 05:00 (was meant to get up at 04:30), had to leave at 05:15, just caught the bus, no breakfast, had a sausage roll at the station, officially started work from 06:30 to 19:00, and I've only just got home now (it's 22:41 - that time discrepancy isn't travel time, that's me going out to dinner with my dad). Needless to say, I'm tired, worn out, need sleep, have an assessment tomorrow, etc, etc - Will speak tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenure Posted September 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) Eurgh, hate that you can't edit older posts. Anyway, I just wanted to pop into this thread again, just to say that I watched 'The Painted Veil' on Kendall's recommendation, and I thought it was marvelous. Anyone who has been through a similar situation to me, dating someone, perhaps even marrying them, despite their faults outweighing their virtues, because you thought you could change them, or just because you thought they weren't fools or whatever - I strongly urge you to see this film; it will hit you between the eyes. Edited September 25, 2007 by Tenure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jws1776 Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 "Christians"......Had an encounter with one when I was younger and dated her for almost a year. I ignored her lack of logic and reason and adherence to her religion at the time because she was only 18, and I thought she would grow out of it. She had me convinced she was a very moral and good person (as a Christian) at the time and it seemed like she was, but it just didn't work out at the time. Over a decade went by after going out with her then, and I recieved a call from her a year ago when I was getting divorced and she said she heard I was from a mutual friend and got my number. She claimed she had "loved" me for the last ten years and dreamed of being with me again someday, and even got married to a man "I don't love" so that if she ever came back to me, it would be easier. Well, I let my emotions guide my actions (first mistake) and continued talking to her on the phone despite the fact she was currently married. One thing led to another and this formerly innocent, Christian girl from my past came over to my house one night when we agreed to meet since she was planning on getting divorced and coming to me once that was over. I was consumed by a range of emotions when she got here and allowed an affair to begin at that point, on that night. What I came to find out in the weeks and months that followed, was that her religion gave her an opportunity to live a charade of a life in her other world, (bible study on Wednesdays with mom, church on Sunday, etc) while secretly cheating on her husband in what became a very passionate sexual affair with me. Her lack of remorse, empathy and sympathy for her spouse was shocking as time went by. I of course ignored it and rationalized my behavior because the sex was incredible. Even the day he found her sent emails to me and mine to her on her email account, her indifference and lack of any emotions for him and the pain he was in was amazing. But like an idiot that was thinking with my other head, I ignored it and continued having sex with her. It fed my ego, when she said she got pregnant once when she was married, but knew we would be together again someday so she aborted it. Once again, Christian hypocrisy similiar to what I had dealt with over a decade earlier. The sex gradually got even more intense and entered a level that I doubt most Christians would allow themselves to experience, but that didn't seem to bother her, as long as nobody knew and she had her other world to go back to every morning. This formerly innocent, semi-naive, Christian girl I knew when I was younger turned out to be the exact opposite of what I imagined a mature, adult Christian woman would be over ten years later. I could go on forever about the year we were back together, but the most shocking part about it was when I brought up a news story from a decade earlier when the pastor at her church here in the state we live in was arrested for molesting three boys and then numerous other men at the time that had that happen to him at his hands when they were younger came forward to. He was removed from that church and faced criminal prosecution and it was well known in this area at the time. When I brought that up, because she had previously almost worshipped the guy when we were younger, she began to fiercly "defend" him, and did so on grounds that I could not believe I was hearing. She began to explain to me that what he did was the result of "satan" using him because he was the leader of their church to "hurt" the church, and the people of the church that were members, and chose the pastor (rather than someone else) because it impacted and affected the entire church and so many lives, by just one man being used for that. I was speechless and blown away by her response and could not believe a human being could actually think that. She argued with me that night over the issue and couldn't understand why I didn't agree with her. I just think the guy was sick and a bad person, period, and that almost enraged her at one point. In addition, at the age of 30, I was fortunate enough to see what this perfect little Christian girl had evolved into a decade later. Her use of alcohol at times was amazing, and resulted in her becoming so angry with me that she would do things like grab a hard book on my desk and knock me on my head in an argument. She ran off to Cabo with me for two weeks in the middle of her separation/divorce and when I asked her if her parents knew she was with me, she replied casually that they thought she went alone, because it wouldn't be "right" for her to be with a man unless she was married. I obviously thought that was weird all things considered, but thought it was even stranger that she said she didn't have sex with her husband before they got married because he was a member of her church and also a Christian. That would have been understandable but we had spent the previous few months f-ing like porn stars and she admitted to having sex throughout college. (of course with men she wasn't going to marry). It kept getting worse as time went by. I realized that in the aftermath of her divorce, she had no intention on actually being with me on a level that would run parallel with being a 30 year old woman. She moved into her parents house and only worked a few days a month, while dad took over the bill paying role previously handled by her husband. She lacked any real ability to deal with reality and think critically about life. She insisted on sleeping in bed when she was at my house with a giant teddy bear she had since her childhood, which normally would just seem a little weird but it was after hours of intense, and sometimes non-traditional sex. The dichotomy was becoming more apparent as each week went by. Of course I ignored it because the sex was on a level equal to an xxx movie and she told me all the things I wanted to hear. "I love you soooo much" "You are the only man I have ever wanted", etc etc. The entire thing finally erupted when two things happened in the course of the same week towards the end of the relationship. Dad found out we were together again at one point and we had been arch enemies in a sense when I was dating her when we were younger and he went on a rampage. I would have thought a 30 year old woman would have been able to deal with him, but his financial and emotional control over her were adversaries I didn't have the time or energy to fight again over a decade later. I told her to grow up and deal with him or I was getting out. Over the next two weeks, while I gave her time to make a real adult decision, she continued coming over and well....the sex was always awesome with her so I kept banging her......but one morning when she was still sleeping, I grabbed her cell phone that had gotten pushed under the bed the previous night during the action and went into my office and turned it on. What I found was a reality check unlike no other.......text messages from what I assumed to be other guys - thats right guys/plural....from different numbers that were sexual in nature and context. I could have left it at that, but I had noticed a month earlier when she typed her password into her phone that it was the four digits for the year she graduated from college. I called in and typed it in correctly, and she had saved a series of messages from different guys with recent times and dates and they were all sexually related, etc. I put her phone back under the bed, and fell back to sleep. She left that morning and called me later that night and I told her what I had found out while we were on the phone. I heard a slight sound that resembled a gasp, and what sounded like crying and she hung up. I sent her a final text that said "Your second chance was your last chance, don't ever contact me again." And that was my last attempt to ever deal with a "Christian" in terms of a relationship. Since then, I have been with women that would be considered atheists, and have experienced a high level of trust, integrity and intimacy with them and they conduct themselves like mature, rational women. No veil of religion masking a hidden side that eventually manifests itself and becomes obvious later. I grew up Catholic and abandoned that world at what I consider to be an early age (14) when the use of logic and reason started to occur. Some of the worst people I have ever had to deal with in my life were Catholics and Christians. They think their religion gives them an ability to avoid accountablilty and responsibility for their actions and harm they cause people. It's built into their religion in the sense that they think all they have to do is ask God or Jesus for forgiveness and everything is ok. That in itself if followed by mankind as a whole is a recipe for the downfall of civilization. Two thousand years of evidence has prooven that. jws1776 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenure Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Wow... I read through that whole story and, well, it makes mine seem like a right lark! If there's anyone who can talk about why reason should lead and emotion should follow, it's you. I would be careful though, in that generalisation you make towards the end about Christians. I absolutely agree with what you were talking about - avoiding reality and dodging responsibility - but I'm not so sure those Christian premises lead purely to destruction. The first Christian girl I went out with (and my first ever girlfriend, the 18-Month-One as I reference her to Kendall), her parents were both Christians when they met, waiting till marriage and all that. They seem pretty happy, and she never ever said anything that suggested any mistrust or hostility in their relationship. Apart from the fact that her mother is incredibly neurotic -- but I don't know if other people's psychological conditions are for me to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.