The Only Two Things The Majority of Women Want.

[eudaemonist]

Data point: I'm a woman and I COULND'T CARE LESS about my potential mate's looks or social position! Integrity, independence, intelligence, introspection, enthusiasm, creativity, being comfortable in his own skin...that's what really counts.

Moebius: "I don't know. I've never gone after or hung out with any women older than 35. Virtually every single woman I know older than 35 that is at all desirable has already married or are in some sort of a relationship."

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps some of the older, single, independent, desirable women you may have run into don't look their age? I'm 35 in the picture in my profile, not touched up in the slightest--and people regularly underestimate my age by a decade. Healthy, rational women who take care of themselves don't age the way harried, "ex-party girl" drug-addled alcoholic smokers do. How many of those do you know, hm? Odds are your sample is skewed.

"Expiration date" my foot, I'm waiting for the right man and won't settle for less.

Edited July 18, 2007 by eudaemonist

[eudaemonist]

I think this applies better to men than it does to women. At 35 a man is more prone to being stable and financially secure, hence making him more desirable to a lot of women. Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.

Hollywood has a way of producing extremely attractive 40 year old women. But those kind of woman virtually does not exist in daily life -- probably because the amount of work, discipline, medical procedures, and money required to maintain that youth.

Well, well, well. Where to start...

I have multiple advanced degrees and take care of myself very well, thank you very much. If that isn't "stable and secure", I don't know what is! I never took a handout from anyone-- man or woman-- and in fact, helped put a friend through college out of sheer generosity.

Furthermore, I never had any kind of plastic surgery in my life, and don't blow money on beauty treatments, either. I do my nails myself, and get my beautiful long blonde hair trimmed twice a year at Supercuts. I do heavy strength-training three times a week and eat whatever I feel like. I love the feeling of beating my old records, and watching myself grow stronger every month...(if I told you how much I could deadlift, you'd never believe me!) As far as I'm concerned, looking young is a secondary by-product of being in the best possible health I can be.

In sum, call me "old at 35" if you want to--I'm a self-made human being and loving it!

[Moebius]

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps some of the older, single, independent, desirable women you may have run into don't look their age? I'm 35 in the picture in my profile, not touched up in the slightest--and people regularly underestimate my age by a decade. Healthy, rational women who take care of themselves don't age the way harried, "ex-party girl" drug-addled alcoholic smokers do. How many of those do you know, hm? Odds are your sample is skewed.

"Expiration date" my foot, I'm waiting for the right man and won't settle for less.

My sample is certainly skewed. My personal social circle doesn't include many people in the 35+ age bracket, and I haven't gone up to every single attractive older women I've met and asked for their age and marital status. I'm just talking about people that I have personally known to some degree. And yes, you look like you take care of yourself very well in your picture. But then, I don't think I would ever mistake you for being 25 -- at least based on the photo (not trying to be offensive or anything, just my honest opinion since I am 25 and most of my friends are around this age).

Certainly, I have met other older women who have taken care of themselves very well. I was hardly implying that those kind of women don't exist. But like I said, they generally aren't single. That, and they are very rare, whether they're an "ex-party girl", a career woman, or simply a house wife.

And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth. I am no doctor, but I know that a woman start losing their eggs the moment they start menstruating. By the time you're past 35, health risks to the mother and the baby greatly increases, along with a much higher rate of birth defects -- probably because you've already lost most of your healthy eggs at that point. It's simply a biological fact, and I certainly don't think that children is necessarily everyone's priority.

[~Sophia~]

Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.

In any case for someone who wants children, when I see a woman over 35 they are basically on the verge of their biological expiration date.

How could I have missed those wonderful comments?

I am 33 and most of my GFs are close to my age; some slightly older. All of them very much care about their appearance and thus look a lot better than a lot of 25 year olds. A visual may help:

All 3 are over 30 and have at least one child (the woman on the right is my younger sister). (Sorry guys they are all happily married). None of them had anything "done".

I will tell you this however, women over 30 are a lot more challenging (at least for a 25 year old) - a lot harder to impress. They require certain level of maturity...

If there is one universal thing which all women look for in a man - I would say it is confidence (the real kind).

And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth.

That ability is not lost at 35. A lot of women wait a bit longer today to have children.

Edited July 18, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[Moebius]

Well, well, well. Where to start...

I have multiple advanced degrees and take care of myself very well, thank you very much. If that isn't "stable and secure", I don't know what is! I never took a handout from anyone-- man or woman-- and in fact, helped put a friend through college out of sheer generosity.

Furthermore, I never had any kind of plastic surgery in my life, and don't blow money on beauty treatments, either. I do my nails myself, and get my beautiful long blonde hair trimmed twice a year at Supercuts. I do heavy strength-training three times a week and eat whatever I feel like. I love the feeling of beating my old records, and watching myself grow stronger every month...(if I told you how much I could deadlift, you'd never believe me!) As far as I'm concerned, looking young is a secondary by-product of being in the best possible health I can be.

In sum, call me "old at 35" if you want to--I'm a self-made human being and loving it!

Well let's see.

1. I didn't say that women can't be "stable and secure". I just said that those are qualities that most women look for in a man they look to be with over the long term. Even stable and secure ones. Youth on the other hand tend to be much higher on the priority list in the things that men look for in a woman (again, a general statement).

2. Your life doesn't necessarily apply to everybody.

3. I was talking about Hollywood actresses in regards to beauty treatments and medical procedures. They are generally judged by a much higher aesthetic standard than a normal woman, hence require more extreme methods in maintaining their youth (and by extension, their careers).

4. I didn't call you old. The most I've said was that at 35, you're on the verge of being old. This is of course completely subjective and would probably change if I was, say, 60 as opposed to 25. And besides, your age doesn't have much to do with what kind of human being you are.

[K-Mac]

And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth. I am no doctor, but I know that a woman start losing their eggs the moment they start menstruating. By the time you're past 35, health risks to the mother and the baby greatly increases, along with a much higher rate of birth defects -- probably because you've already lost most of your healthy eggs at that point.

From what I've read, I agree. Doctors have told me that towards the late 20s, the quality of a woman's eggs has significantly decreased. (And of course, everyone is different.) I have paid attention to this sort of information because I am 34 and have yet to decide whether or not I want children. (Do not plan to have them unless I know for sure that I want them, but I still remain curious about the "quality" of my eggs.)

eudaemonist, I don't think you should take the comments so personally. It sounds as though Moebius is just speaking from personal experiences, and I think the personal experiences of others certainly can have some value in any discussion.

And Moebius, as you will find soon enough, mid-30s is not old.

[Moebius]

I am 33 and most of my GFs are close to my age; some slightly older. All of them very much care about their appearance and thus look a lot better than a lot of 25 year olds.

Again. I never said attractive older women don't exist!

All 3 are over 30 and have at least one child (the woman on the right is my younger sister). (Sorry guys they all are happily married)

Which further shows, as I've said, most of the attractive ones are no longer single and available at that age. In any case, there's a big physical difference between, say, a 32 year old and a 38 year old. That's why I drew the line arbitrarily at 35.

I will tell you this however, women over 30 are a lot more challenging (at least for a 25 year old) - a lot harder to impress. They require certain level of maturity...

True. When I was 18, I dated a 25 year old and there really wasn't much of a difference in the way we think. At 25 though, a 30 something woman has a seemingly completely different set of standards in terms of mates.

That ability is not lost at 35. A lot of women wait a bit longer today to have children.

Yes, the ability is not lost at 35. Some women can even have children well into their 40s. It IS, however, more dangerous, and carries a higher chance of something going wrong. I do realize however that it is increasingly common for women --especially ones with promising careers-- to postpone having children. Doesn't change the fact that biologically, the optimal time for a woman to have children is probably somewhere between 18 - 28 though.

ps - Your younger sister is cuute! Tell her some random guy on the internet said that.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Moebius

[Moebius]

And Moebius, as you will find soon enough, mid-30s is not old.

Yeah, you're probably right. I remember a time when I thought anyone over 20 was "old". Now it's 35. By the time I'm 30, I'm probably going to think that you're not really old until you hit 50

But then, it would probably be far easier for me at say, 40, to date younger women, than it would be for a 40 year old woman to date younger men. I only say this because currently I know a handful of 40 year old single men from work that are dating women between 25 - 32, and a handful of 35 - 40 year old women that have trouble getting dates period (both groups being relatively successful financially and more or less takes care of themselves).

It's just a fact of our culture (if not our biology) that the physical desirability of men is judged by a far looser standard than women.

[~Sophia~]

Again. I never said attractive older women don't exist!

No you did not but you have stated a rule that "they are on the verge of being old."

Which further shows, as I've said, most of the attractive ones are no longer single and available at that age.

I think this is an exaggeration. So is saying: Most of the good men out there are already taken.

In any case, there's a big physical difference between, say, a 32 year old and a 38 year old. That's why I drew the line arbitrarily at 35.

Again, a huge generalization. Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?

Edited July 18, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[softwareNerd]

Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?

Now you're talking my kind of "young"! Go right ahead.

[Moebius]

No you did not but you have stated a rule that "they are on the verge of being old."

They are. To me. At age 25.

At least in terms of women that I would personally date. And I didn't state a "rule". I stated my opinion.

I think this is an exaggeration. So is saying: Most of the good men out there are already taken.

It's not an exaggeration. It's a precise description of my experience. Although the exact words you quoted were meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Again, a huge generalization.

Again, it is my opinion. And I haven't stated otherwise.

But you're right, it's a generalization. But then, this whole thread is about generalizations. I don't know how "huge" it is, but it seems pretty obvious to me that women (and men) go through the first phase of visible, apparent physical decline some time between 30 and 40, give or take a few years.

And yes, some women take care of themselves better than others. They're in the minority. And yes, that is based on my personal observations. Just in case we somehow need to go over that again.

Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?

I don't mind. But then, what does that show? I could post pictures of a dozen Hollywood starlets age 40 and above that have the body of a 25 year old and the face of a 30 year old. That would amount to... what?

Go out onto the street and look at what an average 40 year old look like.

[eudaemonist]

Well let's see.

2. Your life doesn't necessarily apply to everybody.

Sure...and neither do your limited observations.

[~Sophia~]

I don't mind. But then, what does that show? I could post pictures of a dozen Hollywood starlets age 40 and above that have the body of a 25 year old and the face of a 30 year old. That would amount to... what?

You have mentioned that Hollywood is not a good representation of the rest of the population. I don't disagree but at the same time I am showing you "regular" women whom I know.

Go out onto the street and look at what an average 40 year old look like.

But you are looking for rational women, no?

[~Sophia~]

Now you're talking my kind of "young"! Go right ahead.

LOL, Ok.

I think being fit/slim is rather significant factor when it comes to looking "young".

Edited July 18, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[eudaemonist]

But then, it would probably be far easier for me at say, 40, to date younger women, than it would be for a 40 year old woman to date younger men.

I've never wanted to date younger men, why on earth would I start at 40?

Honestly, I've never set out to find an age range, it's just how it turned out based on shared personality traits, maturity, intellectual interests and the kind of things we have in common.

By the time I turned 18, I'd read the complete works of Aristotle--what would your average callow young man have to say to me, now OR then? No wonder I was more interested in hanging around the professors. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the kind of young man who cares more about sharing ideas than an an age number is few and far between.

Edited July 18, 2007 by eudaemonist

[eudaemonist]

It's just a fact of our culture (if not our biology) that the physical desirability of men is judged by a far looser standard than women.

I don't give a crap if my potential partner is a dead ringer for the Hunchback of Norte Dame-- it's what kind of person he is inside that matters. "Cultural standards" in general don't play much of a part in my day to day life, why any rational person should think like a sheep when it comes to mate selection is beyond me.

I haven't had a TV for years, so consider myself immune from "Hollywood think" in all its manifestations.

Edited July 18, 2007 by eudaemonist

[dan_edge]

I don't get it. If you do strength training 3 times a week, then why wouldn't you desire a man whose body reflects this same dedication to physical health?

--Dan Edge

[eudaemonist]

I don't get it. If you do strength training 3 times a week, then why wouldn't you desire a man whose body reflects this same dedication to physical health?

--Dan Edge

Ideally, you would have both--but in the end, I place a far greater value on the examined life. A brilliant, interesting person could probably be reasoned into taking better care of himself (and believe me, I've helped make it happen!) but trying to get somebody interested in the life of the mind who isn't already is probably more of a losing proposition.

However, I have to say the stereotype of the "dumb meathead weightlifter" is often a myth. Listening to the discussion on Dave Draper's "Iron Online" forum is like sitting in on a graduate class on physiology. These physically huge men have dedication and discipline like you wouldn't believe.

Edited July 18, 2007 by eudaemonist

[Moebius]

Sure...and neither do your limited observations.

Yes, my observations are limited. But the sample size is certainly far larger compared to yours.

[Moebius]

You have mentioned that Hollywood is not a good representation of the rest of the population. I don't disagree but at the same time I am showing you "regular" women whom I know.

You're missing the point. Posting a picture of a well-preserved 40 year old and saying "hey, they look pretty good" doesn't really reflect much about what an average 40 year old look like.

But you are looking for rational women, no?

I was under the impression that this thread was about women in general. How do you define a rational woman? Most of the women I know are certain rational most of the time. And almost nobody I know, man or woman, are rational all the time.

[Moebius]

Honestly, I've never set out to find an age range, it's just how it turned out based on shared personality traits, maturity, intellectual interests and the kind of things we have in common.

I on the other hand make it a point to avoid septuagenarians, at least at this stage of my life. That is of course not by any means my only standard, but certainly one of the rules that I have consistently followed.

By the time I turned 18, I'd read the complete works of Aristotle--what would your average callow young man have to say to me, now OR then?

Well I couldn't answer for an average callow young man. But I would probably say, "Good job." But then, I probably wouldn't find that the act itself make you any more desirable or interesting, now or then.

[Moebius]

I don't give a crap if my potential partner is a dead ringer for the Hunchback of Norte Dame-- it's what kind of person he is inside that matters. "Cultural standards" in general don't play much of a part in my day to day life, why any rational person should think like a sheep when it comes to mate selection is beyond me.

I haven't had a TV for years, so consider myself immune from "Hollywood think" in all its manifestations.

"Cultural standards" doesn't have much to do with men desiring beautiful women (or vice versa). Hollywood doesn't have much to do with it either. And desiring a physically pleasing mate doesn't necessarily make you a "sheep".

But yes, what kind of person he or she is on the inside is what's most important.

[eudaemonist]

"Cultural standards" doesn't have much to do with men desiring beautiful women (or vice versa). Hollywood doesn't have much to do with it either. And desiring a physically pleasing mate doesn't necessarily make you a "sheep". But yes, what kind of person he or she is on the inside is what's most important.

Sounds to me like you would have picked Barbara Branden over Miss Rand too.

Yes, my observations are limited. But the sample size is certainly far larger compared to yours.

Are you not aware of the meaning of the term "data point"? That's how I prefaced my comment...sheesh.

Edited July 19, 2007 by eudaemonist

[intellectualammo]

However, I have to say the stereotype of the "dumb meathead weightlifter" is often a myth.

No, it is a myth, then.

Edited July 19, 2007 by intellectualammo

[eudaemonist]

No, it is a myth, then.

Except all the times it's demonstrably true? I'd hate to try my hand at estimating percentages...haha