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Impressive DVD & Book Collection :lol:

But I'm a bit confused... why the confederate flag? There may have been some good causes, but fighting for slavery is not one. Even if you don't intend to represent that cause, that flag does.

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Impressive DVD & Book Collection :)But I'm a bit confused... why the confederate flag? There may have been some good causes, but fighting for slavery is not one. Even if you don't intend to represent that cause, that flag does.
Well southerners have few flags that don't represent slavery, so how can you blame us?

Question: why are you showing the photos to us? I am not complaining, quite the reverse, I like the photos. However, i do not understand your motive for showing your photos to us and would like to understand.
Just for fun.

NEW LINK!!!!

But we all know that the civil war was really for the grits recipy, so it was a stratigic loss for the union, because they didn't get it.

Grits is a darn good cause, and choice for breakfest.

Edited by BinniLee
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Well southerners have few flags that don't represent slavery, so how can you blame them?
I would say using no flag is better than using one that represents slavery.

Just for fun.NEW LINK!!!!
I got an error message saying I don't have permission to view the forum. Do I have to become a member first?

Grits is a darn good cause, and choice for breakfest.
Um, for those of us who don't know, what are grits? Edited by DragonMaci
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Well southerners have few flags that don't represent slavery, so how can you blame us?

So why not hang a flag from a southern state?

The confederacy was formed to fight a war with the North. One of the major causes of that war was the support of slavery. That flag represents that cause. It's a well known fact and it's not disputable.

I think the value of representing you're from the South (if you are) is not greater than the cost of being viewed as a racist/collectivist and reminding people of such an ugly thing. Surely you could find a more creative way to represent you're from the South if that's your intent.

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So why not hang a flag from a southern state?

The confederacy was formed to fight a war with the North. One of the major causes of that war was the support of slavery. That flag represents that cause. It's a well known fact and it's not disputable.

I think the value of representing you're from the South (if you are) is not greater than the cost of being viewed as a racist/collectivist and reminding people of such an ugly thing. Surely you could find a more creative way to represent you're from the South if that's your intent.

Its pretty... :lol: Yeah, I understand that people might get the wrong idea, but I don't mind.

the Mississippi flag is there too, I really do need a the Virginian one, having the Mississippi one is sort of silly in retrospect.

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Edited by BinniLee
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I would say using no flag is better than using one that represents slavery.

I got an error message saying I don't have permission to view the forum. Do I have to become a member first?

Um, for those of us who don't know, what are grits?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Confederate States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all white people, Amen. :lol:

Maybe not, but I like the south, slavery is hardly a big issue today.

Yeah, sorry about that, I'm not sure what to do...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits

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MY CAR:

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Edited by BinniLee
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I really enjoyed seeing what your room/car looks like. I think you can learn a lot about someone from the way they choose to live (to the degree that they put any effort into decorating, which you clearly do).

I also like the Confederate flag. A couple of people have asserted that it "stands for slavery" and that that fact is "not disputable," but I'm disputing it, so there. :P At face value, at issue in the Civil War was an increasingly tax-hungry and tyrannical federal government, and the fight for states rights. The fathers of Southern independence were certainly right about growing federal tyranny - look where we are now - and they were right about it then, too. The North had a history of imposing economic controls upon the South that put a damper on economic progress - see Tariff of Abominations. To me, and to many others, the Confederate flag is a symbol of resistance to unjust federal laws. It can't be a symbol of slavery, since nobody actually supports slavery. That said, I would be hesitant to display a Confederate flag in public, since some people associate it with racism.

What is the flag with the red "sun" and red lines? It looks like the Japanese naval flag... and why the Native American chiefs on the wall?

Edited by BrassDragon
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What is the flag with the red "sun" and red lines? It looks like the Japanese naval flag... and why the Native American chiefs on the wall?

Think WWII, Japanese Imperial Navy. It represents the land of the rising sun.

It's a very famous, or more accurately infamous, flag.

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To me, and to many others, the Confederate flag is a symbol of resistance to unjust federal laws. It can't be a symbol of slavery, since nobody actually supports slavery.

The motivation for forming the Confederate States of America was to assert the States' rights to keep slavery legal. The primary motivation was certainly not to protest Protectionist measures, although that was probably an issue for a few. I cannot comprehend how this flag symbolizes rebellion against "unjust federal laws" when all of the major issues the South screamed about includes:

  • The abolition of slavery.
  • Teaching evolution in schools.
  • The Brown v. Board of Education decision.
  • The decision that the Ten Commandments may not be displayed in a courthouse.

Needless to say, I understand that this is certainly not what you (or Binni) mean by unjust federal laws. Nevertheless, of all of the symbols you can choose to represent individual rights, Capitalism, reason and courage against unjust laws, I do not understand why you choose to keep this one.

It would be appalling for someone to claim a Nazi flag represents German industriousness and military prowess. Likewise, it would be shocking for someone to claim that a bust of Stalin represents Russian might. The essential characteristic of the South was pro-slavery. I do not see how displaying a Confederate flag is any different.

What is the flag with the red "sun" and red lines? It looks like the Japanese naval flag.

That looks like the a Japanese naval flag to me. I saw one on the U.S.S. Alabama, which was captured during World War II.

I think I will just stick to corn flakes, rice bubbles, coco pops, and porridge then, espially since grits is not available in New Zealand.

What about Vegemite, Caramello Koalas, Violet Crumble, Cherry Ripe and Pollywaffle?

Edited by DarkWaters
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I also like the Confederate flag. A couple of people have asserted that it "stands for slavery" and that that fact is "not disputable," but I'm disputing it, so there.

It wasn't a couple of people that said it was not disputable, it was me. The confederate flag stands for slavery among other things. But yes, you're right, you can dispute it, but that cannot change what it stands for.

You can argue that it doesn't stand for slavery but it still does. You can argue that A is not A but it still is.

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Think WWII, Japanese Imperial Navy. It represents the land of the rising sun.

It's a very famous, or more accurately infamous, flag.

So Binni - why do you have that flag?

The motivation for forming the Confederate States of America was to assert the States' rights to keep slavery legal. The primary motivation was certainly not to protest Protectionist measures, although that was probably an issue for a few. I cannot comprehend how this flag symbolizes rebellion against "unjust federal laws" when all of the major issues the South screamed about includes:
  • The abolition of slavery.
  • Teaching evolution in schools.
  • The Brown v. Board of Education decision.
  • The decision that the Ten Commandments may not be displayed in a courthouse.

Needless to say, I understand that this is certainly not what you (or Binni) mean by unjust federal laws. Nevertheless, of all of the symbols you can choose to represent individual rights, Capitalism, reason and courage against unjust laws, I do not understand why you choose to keep this one

Of the three issues you cite, the only one that I see as having any potential connection to the Confederate flag is the issue in question now - the abolition of slavery. The others came after the Civil War. The Confederate flag has no connection to the modern South, to me.

It would be appalling for someone to claim a Nazi flag represents German industriousness and military prowess. Likewise, it would be shocking for someone to claim that a bust of Stalin represents Russian might. The essential characteristic of the South was pro-slavery. I do not see how displaying a Confederate flag is any different.

I think the Confederate flag can properly (and more appropriately) be seen as representing the Confederate rebellion, not necessarily "the South." And I think the fundamental characteristic of the Confederate rebellion was an appeal to states' rights, i.e. against unjust federal power. Unfortunately, one of the "rights" the Southern states wanted to preserve was institutionalized slavery. So, the Confederate flag as an appropriate pro-freedom symbol really is a mixed bag. But what other symbol speaks to strong discontent with the federal government? In absence of anything else, some people have adopted it to this purpose. Others have adopted it to the purpose of racism, and others have adopted it to the purpose of showing pride for Southern culture. Again, because it's kind of ambiguous, I wouldn't show the Confederate flag publicly. If it were to hang in my house, though, its symbolic role would be clear.

I think the issue that's really at hand, here, is whether the Civil War can be reduced to "a war over slavery." I don't think so. Southern slavery wasn't abolished by the North until well into the war, as part of the "total war" doctrine, and even then, border states kept their slaves. Abraham Lincoln stated at the beginning that he was willing to endure slavery if the Union could be preserved; only later was slavery used, by him and others, as a justification for forcing certain states to remain in the Union.

It wasn't a couple of people that said it was not disputable, it was me. The confederate flag stands for slavery among other things. But yes, you're right, you can dispute it, but that cannot change what it stands for.

You can argue that it doesn't stand for slavery but it still does. You can argue that A is not A but it still is.

You're making a positive claim that the Confederate flag stands for slavery, so the burden is on you to prove that that is the case. But I don't think you can - there is no "flag that stands for slavery." The Confederate flag is, by definition, the symbol of the Confederate States of America. There is no objective extrapolation from that.

So as to not hijack the thread, if y'all :P have further commentary on the Confederate flag issue, perhaps a moderator can split the thread. I am beginning to regret bringing it up, but I'm willing to defend what I've said if anyone feels that further discussion would be profitable.

Edited by BrassDragon
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I have always been torn on the Confederate Flag issue. As a native Texan, I have seen it everywhere all of my life. Besides the KKK and other obviously racist organizations, the majority of people I know who have displayed the flag, do not display it to show support of slavery.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Civil War was fought, at least initially, for reasons other than slavery. Lincoln made slavery an issue later on in the war, for several reasons, but that was not the sole basis for the war on either side. (Perhaps it should have been, but it wasn't.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_th...rican_Civil_War

Basically, the South was fighting for its way of life. Granted, that way of life largely revolved around agriculture and slavery, but many of the men who fought the war owned no slaves and were very poor. They were fighting because they believed the industrial North did not understand their way of life; therefore, should not control it. The Confederate Flag, for many people in the South, simply represents their heritage and culture, which is quite different than Northern states still to this day.

I am torn on the issue because so many people do see the flag as a symbol of slavery, be it right or wrong, but I understand the will to preserve the traditions of the South, less slavery of course. I think I'll go home and watch Gone with the Wind tonight. :)

"As God is my witness, as God is my witness they're not going to lick me. I'm going to live through this and when it's all over, I'll never be hungry again. No, nor any of my folk. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again. "

Edited by K-Mac
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We really ought to have a separate thread to discuss: whether slavery was the main issue in the civil war. In fact, we almost certainly have a thread like that already. The symbolic meaning of the confederate flag would then be a follow-up question from there.

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At face value, at issue in the Civil War was an increasingly tax-hungry and tyrannical federal government, and the fight for states rights. The fathers of Southern independence were certainly right about growing federal tyranny - look where we are now - and they were right about it then, too. The North had a history of imposing economic controls upon the South that put a damper on economic progress - see Tariff of Abominations. To me, and to many others, the Confederate flag is a symbol of resistance to unjust federal laws.

Regardless of what many of the soldiers in the field might have been fighting for, the leaders of the rebellion (i.e., the politicians who actually declared secession) actually saw the Republican victory as leading to the destruction of slavery through not upholding the slave system. A Republican administration could have appointed federal judges who would eventually have overturned the Dred Scott decision, refused to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act, eliminated the "gag rule" that prevented slavery from being discussed in Congress, allowed abolitionist tracts to be sent through the federal mail, and worked to prevent the further spread of slavery. (In other words, their rebellion was in reality resistance to the nonenforcement and eventual overturning of unjust federal laws.) The federal tyranny they saw looming before them was the "tyranny" of Northerners abolishing slavery against the will of Southerners (which was somehow very much more unjust than the federal government under Southern control enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act in the northern states and against what surely was the rights of the northern states to nullify the operation of a law they saw as unjust and an insult to the dignity of man, but "states rights" really just meant the right to own slaves, and "nullification" really just meant the right of Southern states to flout federal law):

"The rights of the South, and the institution of slavery, are not endangered by the triumph of Mr. Lincoln, as a man; but they are in imminent danger from the triumph of the powerful party which he represents, and of the fanatical abolition sentiment which brought him into power, as the candidate of the Northern section of the Union, over the united opposition of the Southern section against him. The party embracing that sentiment, has constantly enied, and still denies, our equality in the Union, and our right to hold our slaves as property; and avows its purpose to take form us our property, so soon as it has the power. Its ability to elect Mr. Lincoln as its candidate, shows it now has the power to control the Executive branch of the Government. As the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate, appoints the Judges of the Supreme Court of the United States, when vaancies occur, its control of the Executive power will, in a few years, give it control of the Judicial Department; while the constant increase of abolition sentiment, in the Northern States, now largely in the majority in Congress, together with the admission of other free States, will very soon, give it the power in the Legislative Department. The whole government will then be in the hands of our enemies....

"Second, What will be the result to the institution of slavery, which will follow submission to the inauguration and administration of Mr. Lincoln as the President of one section of the Union? My candid opinion is, that it will be the total abolition of slavery, and the utter ruin of the South, in less than twenty-five years. If we submit now, we satisfy the Northern people that, come what may, we will never resist. If Mr. Lincoln places among us his Judges, District Attorneys, Marshals, Post Masters, Custom House officers, etc., etc., by the end of his administration, with the control of these men, and the distribution of public patronage, he will have succeeded in dividing us to an extent that will destroy all our moral powers, and prepare us to tolerate the running of a Republican ticket, in most of th States of the South, in 1864...This would soon give it the control of our elections. We would then be powerless, and the aboltionists would press forward, with a steady step, to the accomplishment of their object. They would refuse to admit any more slave States to the Union. They would abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, and at the Forts, Arsenals and Dock Yards, within the Southern States, which belong to the United States. They would then abolish the internal slave trade between the States...These steps would be taken one at a time, cautiously, and our people would submit. Finally, when we wee sufficiently humiliated, and sufficiently in their power, they would abolish slavery in the States. It will not be many years before enough of free States may be formed out of the present territories of the United States, and admitted into the Union, to give them sufficient strength to change the Constitution, and remove all Constitutional barriers which now deny to Congress this power." (Public letter of Joseph E. Brown, 7 December 1860, who on the strength of it was elected Georgia's governor during the Civil War; the text can be found in William W. Freeling and Craig M. Simpson, eds., Secesson Debated: Georgia's Showdown in 1860, pp. 146-59; the passage quoted is pp. 147-9. The whole book is well worth reading.) Brown continued, by the way, to argue that the destruction of slavery would result in the impoverishment of all white Southerners, not only the large landowning class, for an attack on the property of some is an attack on the property of all. In other words, like many Southerners, Brown saw slavery as an essential, fundamental part of Southern society whose destruction would immediately entail the destruction of all the rest of the Southern way of life.

I think the issue that's really at hand, here, is whether the Civil War can be reduced to "a war over slavery." I don't think so. Southern slavery wasn't abolished by the North until well into the war, as part of the "total war" doctrine, and even then, border states kept their slaves.

In fact, this was because of the same constitutional barriers that Brown mentioned in the last sentence above, which Lincoln studiously observed in the Emancipation Proclamation by freeing only the slaves in lands in revolt once they had been reconquered; the border states were not in revolt and thus Lincoln had no constitutional authority for taking what was still constitutionally protected property.

Abraham Lincoln stated at the beginning that he was willing to endure slavery if the Union could be preserved;

Probably in part because of Fremont's failure in the 1856 election, widely thought to be due to his perceived willingness to court civil war in the name of free soil.

only later was slavery used, by him and others, as a justification for forcing certain states to remain in the Union.

"Forcing"? Would you care to explain which measures you mean by that word?

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Dudes...

The bad guys have the coolest flags, besides those flags are mostly for decorative purposes.

Smae goes for action figures, having a Darth Vader standing in the corner of your room, does not mean that you support the Galatic Empire.

Confederate flag:

Why hang on wall:

1) It is a pretty flag

2) I'm a southerner

3) Other southern flags have the same meaning

Why not hang on wall:

1) It represents slavery (albeit two centuries ago)

2) I won't have any black friends

The first list outweighs the latter.

Japanese Rising Sun Flag:

Why hang on wall:

1) It is a pretty flag

2) I love the Japanese navy

3) It represents evil totalitarian imperialism (Equals: Comedy)

Why not hang on wall:

1) It represents evil totalitarian imperialism

2) Asian chicks might bitch

So it stays unless it comes between me and yellow skin.

Edited by BinniLee
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"Forcing"? Would you care to explain which measures you mean by that word?

Ah, wait, never mind. I thought you might be referring to such things as martial law and stationing federal troops in Maryland, which long predated any justification by the need to eliminate slavery, but I guess you were talking about the entire Civil War.

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