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Tragic and self explanatory (Gun Control)

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Kate87

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Mass murder isn't self explanatory. It can however be explained:

1. It is committed by fanatics or the mentally ill.

2. It is committed against groups of unarmed victims, usually in so called "gun-free" zones (areas in which, due to government or private regulation, guns are forbidden).

Identifying these three contributing factors, and acting to eliminate them as much as possible, would prevent most instances of mass murder.

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To your list, I'd also add that mass murderers are a end product of a narcoculture. Where a nation of drug worshippers believe the lie that every conceivable personal physical, mental, and emotional moral problem known to man can be solved by ingesting just the right narcotic.

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To your list, I'd also add that mass murderers are a end product of a narcoculture. Where a nation of drug worshippers believe the lie that every conceivable personal physical, mental, and emotional moral problem known to man can be solved by ingesting just the right narcotic.

I would add the caveat that the narcoculture ,as it were , should refer more to solving 'mental' pathologies than biologic eg chemothereapy. At present perhaps crude methodologies for treating biologic problems, I do not know whether or not for sure but I assume these chemicals have little or no adverse psycotropic properties.

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I would add the caveat that the narcoculture ,as it were , should refer more to solving 'mental' pathologies than biologic eg chemothereapy.

Yes... and the former becomes the outgrowth of faith in the latter. Keep stretching rubber bands and sooner or later some are going to snap.

Edited by moralist
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Yes... and the former becomes the outgrowth of faith in the latter. Keep stretching rubber bands and sooner or later some are going to snap.

I agree it seems medical science has been guided by a deterministic/mechanicist view especially concerning consciousness, which may well be a result of addressing biologic concerns with successful treatments of a chemical nature.
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To your list, I'd also add that mass murderers are a end product of a narcoculture.

Huh? How are you making that link? Do you have data to back it up?

Where a nation of drug worshippers believe the lie that every conceivable personal physical, mental, and emotional moral problem known to man can be solved by ingesting just the right narcotic.

Who thinks that? What does this have to do with the Lanza case? Was he being treated for something? I haven’t heard that in any report yet. Are you talking about depression medication, or something like Adderall? From what you’ve written you could just as easily mean alcohol or marijuana, since your use of ‘right narcotic’ is terribly imprecise (narcotics aren’t prescribed for mental or emotional problems, so I take it you mean ‘drug’). The population of people taking, say, anti-depression drugs contain a higher number of people already with mental problems (than in the population as a whole), so if it turns out there’s a correlation to later troubled behavior it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Proponents of such treatments could argue that there’d be more crackups if you took away this kind of treatment. I don’t have an opinion on it, how is it you came to yours?

Edited by Ninth Doctor
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Huh? How are you making that link? Do you have data to back it up?

(Concord Monitor)

Adam Lanza, who lived with his mother, was unusually prone to tantrums as a child and took medication for behavioral issues, according to friends and neighbors of the family.

(Slate Magazine)

It certainly seems he had several tell-tale signs of the disorder, often making those around him nervous because he was painfully shy and seemed to struggle to be social and form connections with people. It was evident Lanza “had a condition,” a neighbor tells the New York Post. “You definitely notice it,” he added. Lanza was “kind of, like, needy. I wouldn’t say antisocial, but struggling to be social.” One “family insider” tells the New York Daily News Lanza “was a deeply disturbed kid,” who “had major issues” and “was subject to outbursts.” A 25-year-old neighbor who sometimes watched Adam Lanza when his mother would go out with friends said he was on medication, reports the Washington Post.

Who thinks that?

I don't just think that... I know that. America has become a narcoculture steeped in drugs. Got a problem? Take a drug. Got a problem kid? Drug him. It's a secular religion.

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I agree it seems medical science has been guided by a deterministic/mechanicist view especially concerning consciousness, which may well be a result of addressing biologic concerns with successful treatments of a chemical nature.

...and that faith in chemical treatments naturally becomes transferred to chemical treatments for moral conditions.
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I don't just think that... I know that. America has become a narcoculture steeped in drugs. Got a problem? Take a drug. Got a problem kid? Drug him. It's a secular religion.

Taking drugs for mental conditions is no problem, the problem is if he may have taken medication *without* proper psychological treatment at the same time. Even still, what does that have to do with what led him to go on a shooting spree? I don't see how too much reliance on drugs led to this event, unless you mean some doctors may have thought "he's medicated, my job is done".

Edited by Eiuol
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It's amazing to see how many times this is going to happen in America, and how many different reasons are given for it without addressing the elephant in the room.

The only one I see is rotten moral values... but it's likely you are referring to something else. So I'm curious... could you offer a name for your elephant?

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Taking drugs for mental conditions is no problem, the problem is if he may have taken medication *without* proper psychological treatment at the same time. Even still, what does that have to do with what led him to go on a shooting spree? I don't see how too much reliance on drugs led to this event, unless you mean some doctors may have thought "he's medicated, my job is done".

That is the current prevailing societal view: There is a chemical solution for immorality.

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That is the current prevailing societal view: There is a chemical solution for immorality.

What I mean is that I can't tell if you're saying drugs for treating psychological medical conditions are across the board bad, or if you are saying failing to use psychological treatment in conjunction with medication is bad. I agree with the latter, but not the former. Psychological issues do not necessarily represent a failed education of morality, or even a person failure of being moral. Medication is not supposed to be a chemical solution to immorality, because psychological problems are not considered moral problems by a doctor. A doctor should care about treating a disorder, not about fixing moral failings. Anything related to morality is an individual issue. However, maladaptive thinking patterns interfere with self-improvement, thinking patterns that require further treatment along with medication. That doesn't excuse the shooting, but mental health is too often ignored by doctors who fail to do their due diligence for treating their patients.

Edited by Eiuol
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It's amazing to see how many times this is going to happen in America, and how many different reasons are given for it without addressing the elephant in the room.

I agree. All gun-control laws including those gun-free school zones must be repealed before more children die.

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What I mean is that I can't tell if you're saying drugs for treating psychological medical conditions are across the board bad, or if you are saying failing to use psychological treatment in conjunction with medication is bad. I agree with the latter, but not the former.

The belief that drugs are solutions to moral problems naturally flows from the belief that drugs are the solution for physical problems. They quite clearly help physical conditions when they aren't just compensations for symptoms, but are poor compensators for moral failure.

Psychological issues do not necessarily represent a failed education of morality, or even a person failure of being moral.

There many psychological issues which are a consequence of moral failure, which the popular narcoculture promotes treatment with drugs.

Medication is not supposed to be a chemical solution to immorality

I know. It's put to that use by the narcoculture.

because psychological problems are not considered moral problems by a doctor.

Which is why drugs are the only "solution".

A doctor should care about treating a disorder, not about fixing moral failings.

I totally agree, because no doctor can fix moral failings... however they can and do dope symptoms. But that only stretches the rubber bands, many of which eventually snap.

Anything related to morality is an individual issue.

I agree.. That's why immoral behavior should not be treated with drugs.

However, maladaptive thinking patterns interfere with self-improvement, thinking patterns that require further treatment along with medication.

Yes, that is the accepted approach of the narcoculture: For every problem there is a drug. It's only a matter of finding just the right one administered in just the right dosage... the quest for the Holy Grail.

That doesn't excuse the shooting, but mental health is too often ignored by doctors who fail to do their due diligence for treating their patients.

I understand you truly don't see the excuse embedded in your statement, so we can just let it go as a difference in our individual points of view.

Edited by moralist
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The TRUE SOURCE of RANDOM & MASS SHOOTINGS and VIOLENCE (original capitalization)

What an irrefutable damnation of the popular narcoculture.

I noticed that video was produced by the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights which belongs to the Scientology organization. Although I do not subscribe to their beliefs, on this particular issue they are spot on.

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Yes, that is the accepted approach of the narcoculture: For every problem there is a drug. It's only a matter of finding just the right one administered in just the right dosage... the quest for the Holy Grail.

I'm not sure what it is that you're missing in what I said. You're saying that the solution is not a drug alone. This is true. Drugs alone aren't a solution, but they can be part of the solution. I don't advocate non-adults from taking psychiatric meds, but some psychological problems can be in large part due to a real problem in the brain. I don't know if you've known anyone bipolar, but that's a kind of issue where medication is needed on top of psychological treatment. By needed, I mean without which they may actually harm themselves or others. In most cases, that harm will be immoral. So, part of fixing the problem is taking some medication to better control the harmful thoughts or obsessions, just as the psychological treatment that goes with it is for helping to control those thoughts.

I said doctors aren't after fixing the moral problems of a person, because part of their job is to just fix the problem. Fixing problems helps a person to get on the road to moral and personal success, by enabling them to be healthier.

That isn't to say all psychiatrists are good doctors, though.

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It's amazing to see how many times this is going to happen in America, and how many different reasons are given for it without addressing the elephant in the room.

The only one I see is rotten moral values... but it's likely you are referring to something else. So I'm curious... could you offer a name for your elephant?

The reason why she doesn't is because as soon as she spells out what she's getting at, she's gonna get a mountain of facts and logical arguments that contradict her claims. Like in the last thread she made about gun control, only to run away as soon as some logical arguments came up. Better not make any actual claims. No one can argue against vagueries, can they?

But it's too late for vagueness, since we already know that what she's talking about is gun control. And she's talking about it on the day two mass murders occurred in schools: one by gun and one without the use of guns.

It's nonsense. Here, have some more facts about gun control:

http://www.reasonorf...statistics.html

Australian Gun Ban Facts & Statistics

It has now been over 10 years since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The statistics for the years following the ban are now in:

accgundths.gif

The assault rate has increased 800% since 1991, and increased 200% since the 1997 gun ban.

Robbery and armed robbery have increase 20% from the pre-97 ban rate. From immediately after the ban was instituted in 1997 through 2002, the robbery and armed robbery rate was up 200% over the pre-ban rates. In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 171 percent.

Let's examine the overall murder rate and the gun murder rate in Australia. Take note both are virtually unchanged and unaffected by the gun ban.

murder.gif

The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it. While the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns. Criminals in Australia now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws ONLY adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

One final statistic...

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 170 million

Edited by Nicky
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I'm not sure what it is that you're missing in what I said. You're saying that the solution is not a drug alone.

I'm saying that drugs (psychotropics for example) frequently make things worse. Immoral people love it when their evil behavior is declared a physical or mental ailment which needs to be treated with drugs, because it absolves them of taking any personal responsibility for their own behavior. Once set free from moral accountability, they can now express the evil inside of them...

article-2248477-1686E8B3000005DC-505_306x423.jpg

I rest my case.

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I agree. All gun-control laws including those gun-free school zones must be repealed before more children die.

Riight. Maybe this wouldn't have happened if all those kindergarteners were allowed to carry guns to school.

Might as well teach them how to use guns as early as possible:

259d4x1.jpg

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But it's too late for vagueness, since we already know that what she's talking about is gun control.

Thanks for the heads up, Nicky. I'm new here, and didn't realize to what she was referring. It's a common practice to blame inanimate objects for evil while excusing people's evil behavior as being a disease over which they had no control. To use a saying that's been going around lately. Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for obesity.

It is each individual American's Constitutional duty to be their own well armed militia.

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