Ayn Rand and Beethoven

In the book Objectively Speaking their is a transcript of the lecture in which Rand commented on Beethoven (and other ‘Favourites in Art’)

i don;t have the book with me, but she was asked about Wagner, Beethoven, and Rachmaninov (I think)

  • Wagner she said was bad music, and bad philosophy

  • Beethoven she said she had to admire as a technician, couldn’t deny the degree of craft, but disliked the music on the basis of its (supposed) malevolent worldview

  • Rachmaninov (I think it was he, maybe Tchaikovsky), she adored

personally I find Beethoven’s work usually follows the pattern of a titanic struggle and eventual triumph, it’s very stirring

but what i like about it is there’s something so immediate and direct - like you are not enjoying the music because it is evoking something else, you’re just enjoying its pure form, note for note

hard to explain really

Then perhaps that is the problem. Because of my particular training as a musician, I don’t allow myself the luxury of gut-level reactions to music. For me musical pleasure, when it comes to classical music, has to be an integration of intellectual and emotional aspects. Where available I try to avail myself of an analysis of the work as a whole from the different aspects of how I emotionally react to the work, what the composer is doing (which draws on knowledge of musical history and musical theory, and if available knowledge of the ideological work behind the piece), whether he is succeeding at his goal or not, and whether or not it has a significant philosophical statement. So, for example, Beethoven’s “Fidelio” is a work that resounds deeply with me because not only of the emotional reactions I have to the music (“Mir ist so wunderbar”, for example, I find indescribably beautiful) but from all of the other fields collected. Kurt Weill’s “Street Scene”, for example, is a work I abhor-- although Weill can write beautifully-sounding music, “Street Scene” in all of the other fields is a malevolent little pill full of poison and hatred towards man and modern society, though not nearly as vicious as his other work, ‘The Threepenny Opera’ which is a Marxist critique of the capitalist world. Separated from Weill’s ideology is, for example, his set of songs including “It Never Was You,” which do not espouse the composer’s vile philosophy and which actually allow him to use his gifts for musical composition within a context that is not malevolent - so to my total enjoyment, his collections of songs are far superior than “Street Scene”, even though “Street Scene” is a very sophisticated score. (This is why I will never perform the role of Sam though I have been offered it, but would sing the tenor solo in the Ninth in the blink of an eye).

Then perhaps the problem there is imprecise language. What you said was, in exact terms, that “Fidelio is at best modest,” which is a statement that the opera in itself is of ‘modest’ quality- this is not an emotional reaction but rather an intellectual or academic judgment- it’s not an emotional term.

Regarding your first point, I think you made a good representation of the difference between a person with professional musical training and a music lover. You want to see the nuts and bolts and can understand them and appreciate them. I, being only a high school clarinet player (which was long ago), can read the music (I do have several Dover scores) and enjoy seeing some of the internal supporting instrumental parts, but it really only helps me hear more in the music. That is good if I enjoy the music.

I have met professional young musicians who recognized only the technical aspect of their craft. School didn’t really teach them how to enjoy the music. They follow, I guess, Stravinsky, whom, I have heard, said that music did not have an emotional element.

I will also own up to imprecision. When I said “modest” I was speaking within the parameters of my own personal view of the work. I do respect Beethoven and his creative and technical abilities and would not want to denigrate them. I have seen Fidelio and have one good recording. I am pleased with both. But in relation to other operas, to me it is a modest work. After reading of your regard for “Mir ist so wunderbar” I listened to a copy I own sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Kristen Flagstad, Josef Greindl, and Anton Dermota. I love ensembles.

I am pleased that you mentioned your professional vocation. (If I could sing at all I would sing in the chorus of the Ninth with as equal a passion as I would in the Verdi Requiem. What about the tenor solo there?) Perhaps you could open a new thread and talk about your experiences, points you find interesting, and singers you admire.

In the book Objectively Speaking their is a transcript of the lecture in which Rand commented on Beethoven (and other ‘Favourites in Art’)

i don;t have the book with me, but she was asked about Wagner, Beethoven, and Rachmaninov (I think)

  • Wagner she said was bad music, and bad philosophy

  • Beethoven she said she had to admire as a technician, couldn’t deny the degree of craft, but disliked the music on the basis of its (supposed) malevolent worldview

  • Rachmaninov (I think it was he, maybe Tchaikovsky), she adored

personally I find Beethoven’s work usually follows the pattern of a titanic struggle and eventual triumph, it’s very stirring

but what i like about it is there’s something so immediate and direct - like you are not enjoying the music because it is evoking something else, you’re just enjoying its pure form, note for note

hard to explain really

That’s Mozart, too. The pure beauty of his music is amazing to behold.

I am pleased that you mentioned your professional vocation. (If I could sing at all I would sing in the chorus of the Ninth with as equal a passion as I would in the Verdi Requiem. What about the tenor solo there?) Perhaps you could open a new thread and talk about your experiences, points you find interesting, and singers you admire.

I don’t have time to answer to your post in full as it deserves because I am running off to an audition and will not return until later today, but I wanted to mention that I do have such a place as you suggest- my blog, Nourrit’s Number, is where I make regular posts about it. I haven’t posted anything of the sort here because I thought there wouldn’t be much interest in the ramblings of an opera singer. Maybe I’m wrong, though.

I don’t have time to answer to your post in full as it deserves because I am running off to an audition and will not return until later today, but I wanted to mention that I do have such a place as you suggest- my blog, Nourrit’s Number, is where I make regular posts about it. I haven’t posted anything of the sort here because I thought there wouldn’t be much interest in the ramblings of an opera singer. Maybe I’m wrong, though.

I like your blog, P. You’ve an interesting life.

I don’t have time to answer to your post in full as it deserves because I am running off to an audition and will not return until later today, but I wanted to mention that I do have such a place as you suggest- my blog, Nourrit’s Number, is where I make regular posts about it. I haven’t posted anything of the sort here because I thought there wouldn’t be much interest in the ramblings of an opera singer. Maybe I’m wrong, though.

I also liked your blog. Looking forward to more.

Both my girlfriend and I have lived in Colorado, where are you, generally?

Thanks for the comments on the blog-- I’m in the Fort Collins/Loveland area.

That’s not my only blog. I sort of have four blogs, separated by categories:

Whereas Nourrit’s Number is about my singing career and the aspect of music and arts,

Aristotle’s Lighthouse is about Objectivism and philosophy,

Second Life Kain is about me on Second Life,

A Square Round Table is exclusively me in the ‘first life’ realm, and miscellaneous things that don’t fit in the firs three.

I have met professional young musicians who recognized only the technical aspect of their craft. School didn’t really teach them how to enjoy the music. They follow, I guess, Stravinsky, whom, I have heard, said that music did not have an emotional element.

I highly doubt Stravinsky ever said this. It would completely contradict Stravinsky’s own aesthetic - the most important foundation of which was melody (he said this constantly). In fact, Stravinsky’s personal philosophy was one grounded in romanticism and rational thought, which is very important when understanding his sense of rhythm, timing, development, and (most importantly) instrumentation. Listen to his Symphonies of Wind Instruments for a great example of all these properties.

Why should school teach you how to enjoy music? I’m in music school right now, and I would be insulted if I, as a musician my whole life, and a composer for nearly as long, were forced to take “music appreciation” classes. Why would I be going to one of the best institutes of music in the country if I didn’t enjoy the music already? Enjoying the music is rudimentary - it is the first step. I couldn’t have learned how to program without first enjoying my time spent on the computer and thinking logically - just as I could not learn to play Mozart’s clarinet concerto without first enjoying my time playing hot crossed buns in 2nd grade.

I highly doubt Stravinsky ever said this. It would completely contradict Stravinsky’s own aesthetic - the most important foundation of which was melody (he said this constantly). In fact, Stravinsky’s personal philosophy was one grounded in romanticism and rational thought, which is very important when understanding his sense of rhythm, timing, development, and (most importantly) instrumentation. Listen to his Symphonies of Wind Instruments for a great example of all these properties.

Why should school teach you how to enjoy music? I’m in music school right now, and I would be insulted if I, as a musician my whole life, and a composer for nearly as long, were forced to take “music appreciation” classes. Why would I be going to one of the best institutes of music in the country if I didn’t enjoy the music already? Enjoying the music is rudimentary - it is the first step. I couldn’t have learned how to program without first enjoying my time spent on the computer and thinking logically - just as I could not learn to play Mozart’s clarinet concerto without first enjoying my time playing hot crossed buns in 2nd grade.

Reread kianscalia above to understand the context.

It was a big jump to go from what I said, even without the actual context, to “music appreciation” classes.

In the spirit of this entire discussion, let me say that Stravinsky… Well, my experience of Stravinsky has alway supported the quotation.

And in the spirit of other disucssion that you and I have had, please offer up an example of Stravinsky’s rationality. I am curious. Thank you.

Here’s a radical thought.

Assuming we’re all adults here, how about you just listen to the music? Put on a CD of Beethoven, listen, don’t think. Just listen. Do you like it? If not, you don’t.

You can learn to appreciate music, but you can’t learn to *like* music. You like what you like, and while your tastes may change over time (even as an adult), you can’t change the fact that at a particular moment you like something. Music is not a matter of thinking. Music is supposed to evoke emotions, not deep philosophical thoughts about the meaning of life. You may think such things *after* listening to something because the emotions you felt while listening prompted you to think about such matters. But that’s not what I’m talking about here.

Assuming we’re all adults here, how about you just listen to the music? Put on a CD of Beethoven, listen, don’t think. Just listen. Do you like it? If not, you don’t.

You can learn to appreciate music, but you can’t learn to *like* music. You like what you like, and while your tastes may change over time (even as an adult), you can’t change the fact that at a particular moment you like something. Music is not a matter of thinking. Music is supposed to evoke emotions, not deep philosophical thoughts about the meaning of life. You may think such things *after* listening to something because the emotions you felt while listening prompted you to think about such matters. But that’s not what I’m talking about here.

“If it feels good, play it” ?

Put on a CD of Beethoven, listen, don’t think. Just listen.

I’m confused. How exactly does one do that?