But what does .9999999999… MEAN?

Infinity: “There is a use of [the concept] “infinity” which is valid, as Aristotle observed, and that is the mathematical use. It is valid only when used to indicate a potentiality, never an actuality.” Leonard Peikoff, “The Philosophy of Objectivism” lecture series (1976), Lecture 3.

Things are what they are (Identity), and all existents are finite. There’s no such thing as something with an “infinite quantity of something.”

The law of identity doesn’t mean that “things behave the way that they behave,” and “infinite things are infinite” and therefore behave in an infinite manner consistent with their infinite nature.

Besides philosophical issues about mathematics we’ve already discussed, I do not assent to the premise that all existents are finite. I see no reason why that should be, and I see no reason why the law of identity in particular has anything to say about this particular matter since it merely tells us that one thing is itself and not another. If it is a part of a thing’s identity to have an infinity of parts, in any sense, then it still retains identity and the law of identity says nothing substantial about this. So unless you can give a more explicit statement of the law of identity beyond A equals A, namely an explanation of how the law bears on the issue of infinite quantities, this road seems like a dead end. However, I do suggest that this discussion–if we’re to pursue it further–be moved to a more appropriate topic. I’m sure there’s one in the archives.

Besides philosophical issues about mathematics we’ve already discussed, I do not assent to the premise that all existents are finite. I see no reason why that should be, and I see no reason why the law of identity in particular has anything to say about this particular matter since it merely tells us that one thing is itself and not another. If it is a part of a thing’s identity to have an infinity of parts, in any sense, then it still retains identity and the law of identity says nothing substantial about this. So unless you can give a more explicit statement of the law of identity beyond A equals A, namely an explanation of how the law bears on the issue of infinite quantities, this road seems like a dead end. However, I do suggest that this discussion–if we’re to pursue it further–be moved to a more appropriate topic. I’m sure there’s one in the archives.

Let’s see: Objectivism Online Forum.

Philosophy.

Metaphysics and Epistemology.

What does .9999999999… mean?

(subquestiona: What does infinity mean?)

What possible observations give rise to the concept of infinity in this case? (Hopefully this is taken as rhetorically as it was meant.)

What observations give rise to the necessity of either of these inter-related issues?

These items either reduce down to, that is create a logical heirarchy of the first level abstractions that give rise to them, or they would be invalid.

It is within the context of mathematics that give rise to both methods inquired about here. What gives them validity outside of the realm of mathematics? You wish to apply infinite to quantity. What gives rise to the concept of quantity? It is the relationship of a group of entities relative to one of its units. (Corvini, 2,3,4 and All That.) We can observe and grasp 2. We can observe and grasp 3, 4, and some of us 5, maybe 6. After that, we need a method to expand and deal with larger quantities.

We look out at the our world and see trees, and forests? We are able to extrapolate the square area of growable area on its surface. Would you suggest that an infinite amount of trees could be within a forest of that specific area?

We look at our galaxy. We observe stars. Via instruments and calculations we can assess its size. Would you suggest that our galaxy has an infinite amount of stars within it?

We look through microscopes and other instruments to conclude that our bodies are made up of cells. Would you conclude that our bodies have an infinite amount of cells within it?

Every observation that you are able to quantify and relate back to the existent that made it up - of them, have you discovered any entity without specific, finite, contextual limits?

Every system, and subsystem you are able to either observe directly, or relate the data back to the observable, have you discoverd any without specific, finite, contextual limits?

How many observations do you need to integrate before you permit yourself to induce the Law of Identity applies not only to the Universe as an entirety, but to each existent within it, within the framework of the context which gives rise to it, including the concept of infinity, and .9999999999…?

By chopping off the logical hierarchial chain part way down, and then trying to apply it within a context which it was not validated for, could account for some of the confusion that appears to be present here.

Let’s see: Objectivism Online Forum.

Philosophy.

Metaphysics and Epistemology.

What does .9999999999… mean?

(subquestiona: What does infinity mean?)

Well, if you think that .999…, thought of as possibly distinct from 1, is meant to name some quantity in the universe, I suppose this could be a germane place for the question, though I took that possibility to be more in the realm of excessive absurdity.

What possible observations give rise to the concept of infinity in this case? (Hopefully this is taken as rhetorically as it was meant.)

It won’t be.

We observe that, for every quantity we can conceive, we can conceive of one greater. Thus, in order to handle all possible situations, we generalize to a mathematical structure which has an infinite domain.

What observations give rise to the necessity of either of these inter-related issues?

These items either reduce down to, that is create a logical heirarchy of the first level abstractions that give rise to them, or they would be invalid.

It is within the context of mathematics that give rise to both methods inquired about here. What gives them validity outside of the realm of mathematics?

These are clearly English words, but I can’t make sense of how you’ve put them together.

You wish to apply infinite to quantity.

I do? I just state that there’s nothing contradictory about the idea.

Would you suggest that an infinite amount of trees could be within a forest of that specific area?

If I thought that trees could be infinitely small then I might think it possible, but I’ve observed that they seem not to reach a size smaller than, say, their seeds (to be as generous as possible to the starting-point of a tree).

We look at our galaxy. We observe stars. Via instruments and calculations we can assess its size. Would you suggest that our galaxy has an infinite amount of stars within it?

If I had some good reason to, sure. I know of no reason to suppose it is impossible. I also don’t know that there aren’t arbitrarily small distances in space, or that each piece of matter is infinitely subdivisible into more basic units of matter (i.e. that matter is gunky).

How many observations do you need to integrate before you permit yourself to induce the Law of Identity applies not only to the Universe as an entirety, but to each existent within it, within the framework of the context which gives rise to it, including the concept of infinity, and .9999999999…?

I don’t form my beliefs about possibility by some collection of observations, but by whether a hypothesis is self-contradictory. I form probability–not possibility–judgments on the basis of observations.

By chopping off the logical hierarchial chain part way down, and then trying to apply it within a context which it was not validated for, could account for some of the confusion that appears to be present here.

Again, I don’t know what you’re saying. The only logical hierarchy I’ve been discussing is within mathematics.

. . .

Thanks. You answered my question.

No problem.

Besides philosophical issues about mathematics we’ve already discussed, I do not assent to the premise that all existents are finite. I see no reason why that should be, and I see no reason why the law of identity in particular has anything to say about this particular matter since it merely tells us that one thing is itself and not another. If it is a part of a thing’s identity to have an infinity of parts, in any sense, then it still retains identity and the law of identity says nothing substantial about this. So unless you can give a more explicit statement of the law of identity beyond A equals A, namely an explanation of how the law bears on the issue of infinite quantities, this road seems like a dead end. However, I do suggest that this discussion–if we’re to pursue it further–be moved to a more appropriate topic. I’m sure there’s one in the archives.

The Law of Identity is not some man-made decree or a lame attempt to impose some arbitrary, short-sighted limitation on reality. It is a grasp of a fundamental, self-evident fact of reality.

Axiomatic Concepts

Identity.”

Infinity

To add some perspective to the problem of “0.999…” :

Taking a fraction, one obtains its decimal representation by performing the long division, and one finds out, most of the time, that it never ends. However, in the case it never ends, there is a sequence of one or more digits which repeat themselves indefinitely. For example:

1/3 gives 0.3333 …

7/9 gives 0.7777 …

5/7 gives 0.714285714285 … (repeating 714285)

124/555 gives 0.22342342 … (repeating 342 after the initial 22)

(I’ve used the calculator, of course :slight_smile:

Interestingly, the property of a fraction to result in an unending representation is not an intrinsic property of that fraction: in a representation other than decimal (base 10) we could get a terminating representation.

For example, in the base 3 numbering system, 1/3=0.1 and 7/9=0.21. In base 7, 5/7=0.5. I don’t know in which base 124/555 gives a terminating dot representation, but I recommend the Wikipedia article Repeating Decimal for some very interesting facts. Among other such facts, this article notes that even the terminating representations, like 0.57, can be also represented as two nonterminating ones:

0.57= 0.57000…=0.56999…

(the terminating ones are terminated because, by convention, one suppresses the trailing zeroes).

Anyway, all of the above shows that we shouldn’t read too much into the fact that decimal dot representations of some fractions are unending.

Sasha

What else it would mean is a quotient, like 2/3 = .666… .

– Mindy

Almost there.

The Law of Identity is not some man-made decree or a lame attempt to impose some arbitrary, short-sighted limitation on reality. It is a grasp of a fundamental, self-evident fact of reality.

Axiomatic Concepts

Identity.”

Infinity

I’ve read all of Rand’s books and OPAR, so unless these links contain some arguments which are not contained in the literature, I’m afraid I won’t find them informative.

I’ve read all of Rand’s books and OPAR, so unless these links contain some arguments which are not contained in the literature, I’m afraid I won’t find them informative.

Glad to hear that you reject the idea that there can be either infinite existents or characteristics!

Clever try, but nope, the literature just wasn’t convincing.

Clever try, but nope, the literature just wasn’t convincing.

When you say that it “wasn’t convincing,” I take your meaning as being infinite, not finite. I’ll take everything you have to say as being infinite. How can I possibly know that the Law of Identity applies in every case?

I’ve seen no argument, from the premise that A equals A, to the conclusion that all quantities of things in reality are finite. It is not enough to assume that all things which exist, exist as finite beings. Nobody likes being circular, in any sense of the term. I claim the law of identity is compatible with the quantity of some thing being infinite. Indeed, the only argument I’ve ever seen to that conclusion has been one which attempts to appeal to induction, which might in some sense indicate a probability judgment that the universe is finite, though I don’t think it does. In any case, it cannot even aspire to show that the concept of infinite quantity is inherently contradictory.

As a note, I have no idea what it could even possibly mean to say that you take everything I say as infinite. English words, but I don’t have a clue what they mean in that order.

And which quotient is that? I’m gonna lose it you come back with 1/1. :stuck_out_tongue:

“Would” does not mean “is.” I was tempted to stop there, but I’ll add that non-terminating decimals are generally understood, by the layman, to be quotients. Few of us have memorized a list of the non-terminating decimals which can be produced by a ratio, and those which cannot. If that is the whole point, then this entire debate is about a trick question.

– Mindy

As a minor point of correction, whether laymen are aware of it or not, most non-terminating decimals are irrational, not rational.

I’ve seen no argument, from the premise that A equals A, to the conclusion that all quantities of things in reality are finite. It is not enough to assume that all things which exist, exist as finite beings. … I claim the law of identity is compatible with the quantity of some thing being infinite.

Do you see that being infinite, in any respect, is contrary to having identity?

– Mindy

Most of mathematics doesn’t really need the concept infinity.

This concept (“concept”) is incompatible with arithmetic: operations with infinity are inconsistent and mostly undefined.

In calculus - to which the concept of limit belongs - the idea of infinity is also unnecessary: it is only used as a shorthand for a more precise, but much longer, formulations. For example, we write

541db424c8d3e26d477d9e4082fcacdd.png

as a shorthand for this very cumbersome phrase:

a is the limit of the sequence 2059bc6c6b72307c141ef39304a2fd2b.png, that is for any b0f19c5714fe9f9891ed26ff783cf639.png there exists an integer N , so that 9ba7968a6ebddc6fb3bd6843edf71b69.png for any .

Moreover: arithmetic and classical analysis operate with specific quantities, which d245777abca64ece2d5d7ca0d19fddb6.png is not.

Alex

PS: the equations were shamelessly copied from Wikipedia :slight_smile:

I’ve seen no argument, from the premise that A equals A, to the conclusion that all quantities of things in reality are finite. It is not enough to assume that all things which exist, exist as finite beings.

The law of identity is properly designated as: A is A; meaning: a thing is itself. And the feature of reality that it illustrates is that everything that exists, exists as something, something specific. There is nothing in reality that only sort of exists or exists as nothing in particular. You have to know what a thing is in order to posit its existence and to know what it is means that you must be able to describe it or its properties. If those properties are nothing specific then you can’t describe it or even know what to look for.

While useful for some types of calculations, the concept “infinity” does not describe any thing that exists since it is not something specific.

The law of identity is properly designated as: A is A; meaning: a thing is itself.

I offer a different interpretation. “A is A” means: a thing is what it is. My statement addresses the issue that to exist is to be characterizable. That there is no separation between existing and having character. That is contrasted with specifying what it is that anything can be said to be identical with.

– Mindy

“Would” does not mean “is.” I was tempted to stop there, but I’ll add that non-terminating decimals are generally understood, by the layman, to be quotients. Few of us have memorized a list of the non-terminating decimals which can be produced by a ratio, and those which cannot. If that is the whole point, then this entire debate is about a trick question.

Would be, but for what?

And whether layman accept it or not, there are no natural numbers p and q for which (p/q)^2 = 2. And don’t even think about throwing me overboard for having mentioned it. :ninja:

Incidentally, there is a criterion for determining whether a non-terminating decimal arises from a quotient. Such a decimal number is rational precisely if it repeats after a certain point. There’s even a nice way, given a periodic decimal expansion, to recover the quotient it’s equal to. That method also recovers 0.999… = 1.