Capitalism, Democracy, and Utopia

… … in the best case scenario, a sizeable minority of people would riot to protect the welfare state. … …

This is the core of your argument (apart from arguing about what Mises etc. said).

People often claim that one cannot have an Objectivist society unless everyone is Objectivist. You’re relaxing that condition, saying that one cannot have a Capitalist society unless nearly 100% were for it. And, you back this up by saying that the small, but sizable minority would riot. In a previous post you hypothesized that 10% of the population rioting would be enough.

I don’t understand this. If you argued that one needs 51% of the population convinced, there may have been something to that (though history shows that it is not). However, instead of claiming that one must “convince the majority”, you claim that one must convince a small but sizable minority. It’s a pretty arbitrary assertion, with nothing to back it up.

By your logic, we only need to convince 10% of the population, because once we do, they would riot and therefore get their way!

This is the core of your argument (apart from arguing about what Mises etc. said).

People often claim that one cannot have an Objectivist society unless everyone is Objectivist. You’re relaxing that condition, saying that one cannot have a Capitalist society unless nearly 100% were for it.

This implies a broader question: How do you live a good life in an evil world?

The solution is found in the inherent moral protection of doing what’s right.

Btw, we still have Hayek as a sympathiser with dictatorship (liberal or not) too.

Two words for this, and the whole thrust of this thread: who cares?

This thread basically amounts to digging up obscure quotes from libertarian theorists to try to argue that they, personally, sympathized with some fascist regime or another. You start with the ridiculous bolded claim that " Unfortunately in every actual case of a respected economist arguing for radical capitalism, that economist also has sympathies with fascist dictatorships.****" You argue this from your sample size of three (which has since been whittled down to maybe one) and your uncritical reading of a singe Salon article, as it turns out. But these are not even your most significant errors.

This whole line of argument is fundamentally religious in its approach, and it shows the inability to focus on ideas rather than people. You try to take individual people (none of whom were actually Objectivists anyway) and attempt to discredit a philosophy by showing some quotes about their views on particular regimes. However, a philosophy does not stand or fall based on every single view of its advocates. That’s a religion you’re thinking of. For example, Jesus is claimed to have lived a sin-free life (which theologically is integral to whether or not he can save others), and therefore Christianity lives or dies based on whether every single word and action of his can be defended. Cults or governments centered around one person operate the same way. You seem to view systems of ideas through the same religious lens, but there’s a problem; it doesn’t work that way. Even if you had done your homework and gotten your facts right before starting this thread, it wouldn’t matter one bit. You cannot discredit a system of ideas by pointing out flaws in the people that advocated them. So, I conclude with the same two words… who cares?

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By your logic, we only need to convince 10% of the population, because once we do, they would riot and therefore get their way!

If you can convince 10% of the population to riot, then yes you are a political force worth reckoning with. Note that probably 50% of America wants to see less government and less taxation but guess what? They are not rioting. Why? Because they are living the good life, pursuing values, and not living under tyranny. If you took away all welfare, a sizeable minority would suffer enough injustices to riot.

You argue this from your sample size of three …

…

You cannot discredit a system of ideas by pointing out flaws in the people that advocated them.

As far as I know these three are the main respected economists who argued for radical capitalism. They all won Nobel prizes and they were all highly respected amongst their peers. You could include people like George Reisman or 100 other economists, but I would say they are in a lower intellectual league than these three. These three essentially influenced the development of the 20th century and beyond.

I think my argument can discredit their ideas because I am attacking the _ application _ of their own ideas to actual reality. In other words, the reality they inhabited included fascists and dictators - because they knew their capitalist ideas were unrealistic, they supported these dictators as a short term solution to stop communism. I think their application is an entirely logical conclusion of the ideas themselves and I wonder how Objectivism can reject the conclusions also?

I can reject dictatorships because I believe in democracy, but why would an O’ist reject a dictator that was spreading Objectivist ideas and ideals? Say a hypothetical dictator simply changed the law to make 90% of tax collecting illegal and punishable by death? On what basis could Objectivism fight this since tax is theft, and the dictator has just outlawed theft?

If you can convince 10% of the population to riot, then yes you are a political force worth reckoning with. Note that probably 50% of America wants to see less government and less taxation but guess what? They are not rioting. Why? Because they are living the good life, pursuing values, and not living under tyranny. If you took away all welfare, a sizeable minority would suffer enough injustices to riot.

On the idea that 10% of the population will rise up to riot, you have nothing but your assertion. You make the marxist mistake of thinking that people have class ideologies. It is almost certain that most of the 10% who disagree will be very comfortably off. In the U.S. the states that have rich folk – California, New York, New Jersey – are much *more* likely to vote for welfare-statist policies. Anyhow, it’s all fantasy and rationalization, with zero evidence or historical precedent to back it up.

BTW: You are wildly off base when you say that 50% or Americans want to see less government and less taxation. I’d guess a little over 50% might answer yes if they’re asked such a question at an abstract level, but if you ask about the actual referents you’ll find a completely different picture. Ask if government should allow gay people to marry, ask if the government should stop the drug-war, ask if social security should be privatized, ask if schools should be private, ask if subsidies should be cut back for the health-care of the poor and the old, and so on. You might find less than 10% who want government involvement reduced meaningfully in most such areas.

Say a hypothetical dictator simply changed the law to make 90% of tax collecting illegal and punishable by death? On what basis could Objectivism fight this since tax is theft, and the dictator has just outlawed theft?

Your question doesn’t make sense. Wouldn’t the dictator control the government and the government is the one that controls tax collections? Why would the “IRS” purposely collect more than what was ordered by the dictator?

They’re running the show now, because there are simply not enough Americans left in America.

What does this even mean? How do you define American? I thought it just meant people living in America?

Fascism is a very specific term. Pinochet wasn’t a fascist.. He was a dictator who took the advice of a right-of-center economics school. A dictatorship would only worked in the short term in Chile because Chile was a nation composed of Roman Catholics and Socialists. Pinochet himself wasn’t an individualist or a capitalist, he just copied the American system because he wanted a system that worked.

Would Capitalism require a military junta or a dictatorship to enforce? I don’t see any reason why it would, as no one would be oppressed and social welfare systems would be phased out over time, not shredded the night someone got elected.

An Objectivist dictatorship should not be fought as long as it is doing its job. If it becomes corrupt, or incompetent, or starts violating rights, reforms can be sought, but I don’t know why I would care if an Objectivist dictatorship existed as it wouldn’t do very much.

What does this even mean? How do you define American? I thought it just meant people living in America?

The present political majority of unproductive moochers and the looters who service them may live in America… but they aren’t Americans because they are not living by American values. Living off of the government, either as a recipient or a transfer of wealth program servicer, is not even remotely an American value. Capitalism is an American value because it implies an ethical code of conduct. One example of this code is upholding the trust of those who are worthy of your trust.

Because being an American is not an ethnicity, anyone who comes here from anywhere can become an American simply by adopting American values into their life. In the past, becoming an American was actually regarded as a privelege. Ayn Rand came here and became an American… and a Capitalist as well.

It used to be a moral ideal worthy of aspiration.

As far as I know these three are the main respected economists who argued for radical capitalism. They all won Nobel prizes and they were all highly respected amongst their peers. You could include people like George Reisman or 100 other economists, but I would say they are in a lower intellectual league than these three. These three essentially influenced the development of the 20th century and beyond.

Mises never won the Nobel, and he was the only one of the three that conceivably advocated a government compatible with Objectivism. Both Friedman and Hayek held that the state should have a more expansive role than an Objectivist politics would allow, in providing for a forced social safety net, roads funded by taxation, etc. If you wish to argue simply against generic libertarianism, I suggest you do so on a libertarian site.

I can reject dictatorships because I believe in democracy, but why would an O’ist reject a dictator that was spreading Objectivist ideas and ideals? Say a hypothetical dictator simply changed the law to make 90% of tax collecting illegal and punishable by death? On what basis could Objectivism fight this since tax is theft, and the dictator has just outlawed theft?

Asked and answered.

I can reject dictatorships because I believe in democracy, but why would an O’ist reject a dictator that was spreading Objectivist ideas and ideals? Say a hypothetical dictator simply changed the law to make 90% of tax collecting illegal and punishable by death? On what basis could Objectivism fight this since tax is theft, and the dictator has just outlawed theft?

Couple of things. First, the Mises quote you replicate from the Salon article does not show “sympathies with fascism.” The word fascism is in there, and he said they saved Europe, but okay, so what does this mean? Why was he saying this? How does this translate into “sympathies,” what does “sympathies” mean? We are not told. The ironically hyper-nationalist Michael Lind just wants us to believe this is unacceptable.

The quote appears in Mises’ book, Liberalism, written in 1927, just after Mussolini took power. It was a commonly argued view that fascism was the wave of the future, and European and American media were singing fascism’s praises. The passage appears in the section entitled “The Argument of Fascism,” in which Mises is explaining the Establishment’s love for this new movement. Mises says, alright, it’s true that fascism saved Europe from a Bolshevik takeover, and for that we can be eternally grateful, but in the very next sentence, he says the salvation it has brought is not the kind that can provide continued success. “To view it as something more would be a fatal error.” Mises was not fooled by fascism, unlike his contemporaries, its evils are not much different from Bolshevism, since they use the same violent methods, Mises explains. In fact, he warned, its foreign policy is based on aggresive force, and is bound to destroy all of Western civilization. (Quite a prescient prediction.) All of this is in the very same chapter. How this constitutes “sympathies” with fascism, is not plainly self-evident. Let us not be in doubt of Salon’s (and the OPs?) exemplary scholarship, maybe this is all just an oversight? (In fact, it was partially this chapter of this book, and his dissection of Nazi Germany Omnipotent Government: Rise of the Total State and Total War that established Mises as one of the leading anti-fascists in academia during the twentieth century.)

Secondly, in the very same book Mises has an entire section (“Democracy” in “The Foundations of Liberal Policy”) devoted to upholding representative democracy on the basis of the argument that the majority is going to get the government they want (through revolution if all else), therefore he supports ballots over bullets. The OP’s stunning theory that Mises sympathizes with dictatorships because he knows no one will support liberalism and therefore opposes democracy is not only not supported, but explicitly defied by the actual book itself. I guess this is an oversight too?

And lastly, the OP asks us, how can we oppose an “Objectivist dictator.” Uhh, well let’s see. On practical grounds we can differentiate between political structures that have institutions and incentive structures that are better or worse at doing the job you want it to do. On moral grounds, if the constitution of a society upholds objective law which prohibits the initiation of force, then it is objectively valid and morally binding on men, all men, in fact, and not just the men of the particular society. However, if the constitution of any society attempts to do more, for example, to prescribe political forms for the society, such as recognizing the office of a dictator as supreme head of state (or such as elected offices), then that constitution is not binding upon men in those aspects. (Incidentally, those are both also practical and moral reasons to oppose representative democracy as well.)

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The present political majority of unproductive moochers and the looters who service them may live in America… but they aren’t Americans because they are not living by American values. Living off of the government, either as a recipient or a transfer of wealth program servicer, is not even remotely an American value. Capitalism is an American value because it implies an ethical code of conduct. One example of this code is upholding the trust of those who are worthy of your trust.

Because being an American is not an ethnicity, anyone who comes here from anywhere can become an American simply by adopting American values into their life. In the past, becoming an American was actually regarded as a privelege. Ayn Rand came here and became an American… and a Capitalist as well.

It used to be a moral ideal worthy of aspiration.

Which American values, which I assume you mean as proposed by the founders, does one need to hold to become an American? All of them, some of them? Where is the threshold? And which of the founders are we looking at as the standard?

An Objectivist dictatorship … …

The notion is an impossibility, an actual contradiction. One might fantasize that a small minority of Objectivists could take over some country and rule it. It would only work in fiction, but at least one can envision it. However, to think that that ruling group will then appoint on of themselves as a dictator is really an impossibility.

The notion is an impossibility, an actual contradiction. One might fantasize that a small minority of Objectivists could take over some country and rule it. It would only work in fiction, but at least one can envision it. However, to think that that ruling group will then appoint on of themselves as a dictator is really an impossibility.

Somewhere or other, I think in a Peikoff podcast, LP tells what Rand’s answer was when asked “what would an Objectivist dictator do first”. The answer: resign.

Somewhere or other, I think in a Peikoff podcast, LP tells what Rand’s answer was when asked “what would an Objectivist dictator do first”. The answer: resign.

Thanks, I’d not heard that.

When I look around at the Objectivists I know and at the few hundred Objectivists I’m acquainted with over the web, it seems to me that the most likely implementation of law-making would be a multi-party democracy, with no party having much of a majority and a fair amount of flux moving people from one party to another, but also with some larger, loose inter-party coalitions.

Thanks, I’d not heard that.

I just went looking, and I’m almost certain I found where I heard that. I searched for “dictator” on Peikoff’s site.

http://www.peikoff.com/2012/10/01/would-a-dictator-be-more-or-less-immoral-if-he-imposed-objectivism-on-a-country/

So it’s actually not a Rand quote, but comes from Von Mises. And he said “abdicate” instead of resign. Close enough for Jazz.

Which American values, which I assume you mean as proposed by the founders, does one need to hold to become an American? All of them, some of them? Where is the threshold? And which of the founders are we looking at as the standard?

Ayn Rand actually did a pretty good job with her description of moochers and looters in Atlas Shrugged, and how they lived by a completely different set of values than American Capitalist producers.

The size of government is inversely proportional to the number of Americans who govern themselves.

And it’s perfectly clear their numbers are rapidly dwindling as America devolves into a nation of moochers and looters who pander to their feelings of entitlement to be served at the expense of others.

As far as I know these three are the main respected economists who argued for radical capitalism. They all won Nobel prizes and they were all highly respected amongst their peers. You could include people like George Reisman or 100 other economists, but I would say they are in a lower intellectual league than these three. These three essentially influenced the development of the 20th century and beyond.

Are you saying that most state economic planners of the 20th century were trying to implement these economists’ theories, I seem to think they more aspire to have the Keynesian view as reality.

A principled arugement about proper governments would focus on whether a given ‘system’ was collectivist or not. Governments that recognize individual rights are the only proper kinds of governments.

Ayn Rand actually did a pretty good job with her description of moochers and looters in Atlas Shrugged, and how they lived by a completely different set of values than American Capitalist producers.

Why use the phrase “American Capitalist” - according to you, both terms are used interchangeably. Are you conceding that being an “American” means being an inhabitant of America?

It was based on the Salon article.

I said you’re a liar. I never said you’re the only one.

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