Dancing as non-art

Metaphysics and Epistemology
41

You know, I’m not sure how accurate this is. To give you an example - I would normally hold hands with very little contrast or strength, but yet I’m not a passive person. The way I hold hands does show something about me, but the interpretation is not necessarily so straight forward in all cases.

Would be great if you can tell more about what you learned (the meaning of certain styles/ movements), or give an example.

As far as feeling how passive or assertive your dance partner is, I was looking at this primarily though the eyes of a follow. When I’m dancing, I’m waiting for the lead to initiate the movement. Each lead will do this with a different amount of speed, pressure, motion etc. In my own dancing I have run across some leads who are tentative, and just don’t seem to have the confidence to direct me (luckily most of them improve quickly or stop dancing). On the other end of the spectrum there are leads who are extremely direct, for them every beat of the dance is controlled. Most leads fall somewhere in-between. By feeling a man’s lead I can get an idea of how assertive he is. Of course it is important to take in to account his personal style and dancing experience.

I think you are right when it come to the follow. It is her responsibility to wait for direction from the lead so there is little opportunity for her to be assertive during the dance, but I think she still has ample opportunity to display confidence. For example when the lead releases her temporarily for a free spin or other individual movement some follows will rush back to the lead in a panic to have guidance again. On the other hand a confident follow will continue the move with the same speed and direction she received form the lead and will only stop when the lead comes back to her. As the level of dancing progresses the individual moves can become quite elaborate. It seems to me that the more confident follows take more advantage of these unexpected breaks in connection. They are not thrown off because they have the guts to handle being left alone without much warning.

42

I’ve no idea. I don’t watch any kind of “reality shows.”

I guess it’s a “reality show” :confused: but it’s basically a dance competition. Anyway, like I said in my earlier post, you can see many different types of dance to many different types of music on that show. They have great ballroom dance tournaments on public TV here too, but I guess that’s too “real” for you. :stuck_out_tongue:

43

I think for a lot of people here it would be instructive to think about what it is…

Your judgment of Saura’s “Tango” is superficial at best. Saura’s conception of the film as such is to explore the passion behind the dance, as well as a suggestion of its beginnings. During the early part of the previous century it was essentially the dance of the ‘bajo mundo’ - the underworld, thugs and gangsters, and its place was the brothel. It took a long time before it was embraced in wider circles, and Saura’s movie touches upon these origins as a dance created by the immigrants, the passion behind the dance, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QASkALYFvtE. I find your artistic judgment to be inexact-- I have seen very few Saura movies where he was off track (Elisa, Vida Mia and Cria two of them, even if they had the incomparable Geraldine Chaplin). Tango and Goya in Bordeaux are some of his greatest achievements, along with Carmen, El Amor Brujo and Bodas de Sangre.

Piazzola created more modern music primarily for listening, not for dancing. Even though it is sophisticated music, qua tango music it didn’t retain the sophistication of the older tango music that makes it a joy to dance to.

You are wrong there: Piazzola created specific pieces for dancing, one of them is the “Pequena Suite Portena,” among five or six others - and then there’s his tango-opera “Maria de Buenos Aires” which includes a dance, though this is cut from most recordings… and I’m sorry, but to accuse Piazzola of lack of sophistication is probably one of the greatest musical misjudgments I have ever heard. If anything his compositions take the tango genre and lift it to a higher level of sophistication (his Fugato alone!). Piazzola was one of the preferred students of Nadia Boulanger, one of the century’s most influential composers, theorists and teachers. There is a reason why prominent classical musicians started ‘discovering’ his music in recent years.

44

I have found more organized dance venues very enjoyable. There are places all over that offer social dances and lessons for more traditional ball room dances like tango, waltz, and fox trot or more street dances like swing or blues. Though such organizations dancing has become a big part of my life.

What I think makes dancing unique is that it adds a social aspect.

I also agree that the music has to be good.

Megr.ferg: I can relate to much of what you have said.

I am new here and this is my first reply except my introduction, so “Hello” to the forum.

When I read “Altas Shrugged” a few months ago, and became aware of the philosophy of Ayn Rand, the first thing I wanted to do is see if there were some things I could do to improve my own life. More social interaction and physical fitness came to mind as personal goals to start with.

I recently began studying Argentine Tango, coincidentally, at EstheticIdea’s above mentioned “Tango Tearoom” and although I have not learned all the basics yet, I have found much to value in the learning process. One of the reasons I was attracted to this dance is the social interaction it presents. Another was the delightful tango music which inspires joyful movement. Commitment to a weekly social dance class has helped me to interact in a positive way with others, something I’d been overlooking since I tend to be a bit of a loner.

Some benefits I have experienced so far include better balance, coordination and concentration. From a beginners perspective, I highly recommend social dancing and particularly Argentine Tango!

45

I guess it’s a “reality show” :confused: but it’s basically a dance competition.

Let it go. You won’t get me to say anything good about dancing, nor express any interest in it. And believe me you don’t wanto to hear my rant about television (I don’t want to, either :stuck_out_tongue: ).

46

I’ve said this before, but there seems to be something rather reminiscent of a Hemlock Smoothie here.

Let it go. You won’t get me to say anything good about dancing, nor express any interest in it. And believe me you don’t wanto to hear my rant about television (I don’t want to, either :lol: ).

47

Your judgment of Saura’s “Tango” is superficial at best. Saura’s conception of the film as such is to explore the passion behind the dance, as well as a suggestion of its beginnings.

You imply that you know something about “THE passion behind the dance.” But I am not convinced because all you give for support is cliche’s and stereotypes:

During the early part of the previous century it was essentially the dance of the ‘bajo mundo’ - the underworld, thugs and gangsters, and its place was the brothel. It took a long time before it was embraced in wider circles

So Kainscalia, are you saying it was a dance of “the proletariat?” What does that have to do with “passion?” Who’s passion? What does that have to do with tango as a dance? (these are rhetorical questions.)

Piazzola created specific pieces for dancing…

to accuse Piazzola of lack of sophistication…

Well Kainscalia, you misread what I wrote! Your comment is not relevant to what I said.

48

You imply that you know something about “THE passion behind the dance.” But I am not convinced because all you give for support is cliche’s ( It’s spelled _ clichés _) and stereotypes

I know a great deal about the passion behind the dance, just like I know a great deal about passion in music in general- being a musician by metier, and a damn good one at that.

So Kainscalia, are you saying it was a dance of “the proletariat?” What does that have to do with “passion?” Who’s passion? ( I believe you want to say _ Whose? _ , not Who’s ) What does that have to do with tango as a dance? (these are rhetorical questions.)

Second, stop getting your panties in a knot. If anyone is misreading, it is you. As someone who hasn’t only listened to tango but have spent many nights in the company of and listening to professionals of the style, and to whom the Boca in Buenos Aires was no stranger, I know a great deal about tango. The history to which I allude, and if you had actually *seen* the Saura film you would know, involves its genesis among the immigrants, but it is in the Bajo Mundo that the Tango really flourished. As such, a lot of the passion portrayed in tango involves the passions of people who tended to live in the most visceral of ways. Tango isn’t just a nice little social dance- when it was danced in the brothels and cabarets of the old Aires it was a dance of passion, seduction, betrayal and even obsession. Tango is, irrevocably, associated with that history- part of the romanticized image of tango involves a great deal of these passionate tales of betrayal and murder, as many of the lyrics do as well. This is true in Latin America, where singers such as Mariel Córdoba make a great emphasis over the tragic stories and the flared passions enmeshed in the music’s image. This is what Saura integrated into his movie- by having both the dancers act it out (with the knife fights, the cabaret scenes, etc) as well as having the ‘actors’ and director reflect it in their lives to the point that the performance and the lives of the characters feed off each other. He did this with his “Carmen” as well in the context of flamenco.

It’s not about being “of the proletariat.” Tango has a history, and it’s incredibly foolish of you accuse someone of creating some ridiculous folksy argument when he’s talking about the history and the roots of a particular dance or musical form. I don’t know, but maybe - just maybe - I might know what I’m talking about.

Well Kainscalia, you misread what I wrote! Your comment is not relevant to what I said.

Wrong. You said that Piazzola’s tango lacks the sophistication of traditional tango. Please, explain to me in what planet does that not implicate a deficiency on Piazzola’s part?

You’re just a little bundle of sunshine here, aren’t you? Have you met D’kian? It’s as if you’ve been sharing smoothies.

49

Look Kainsclia, the fact that you are a good musician does not mean that you automatically understand Tango, qua dance music (let alone that you would be able to play it.) You insist in appealing to authority and keep focusing on the image that the humanities professors have created about tango.

The Saura movie completely bypasses the esthetic qualities of tango as a social dance (which are very sweet indeed). And you are not interested in that either–you are trying to belittle something you know nothing about–so let’s just drop it.

50

Look Kainsclia, the fact that you are a good musician does not mean that you automatically understand Tango, qua dance music (let alone that you would be able to play it.) You insist in appealing to authority and keep focusing on the image that the humanities professors have created about tango.

Images that Professors of Humanities have created about Tango?

Alright, put your cards on the table. What do you know about tango? What is the contact that you have with the form? I make no appeal to authority, I make an appeal to knowing. My views are my own- I was expelled from the Rimsky-Korsakov conservatory for being confrontational about some of its canon, so don’t you dare blanket me with a liberal college professor’s view of tango. Que carajo sabes tu de tango? Let’s play your game: What I hear from you are the opinions of a Floridian socialite who has never set foot in Buenos Aires. Have you performed in Michelangelo, Viejo Almacén? I have with Mariel Cordoba. You? Let’s see how little I know about tango, indeed. When you make an audience cry with “El Día Que Me Quieras,” we shall speak.

51

Kainscalia, you insist on making ad hominem attacks. You speculate about me, and you’re wrong!

As I said before, let’s drop it. You have nothing to offer me in this area.

52

Kainscalia, you insist on making ad hominem attacks. You speculate about me, and you’re wrong!

Then put your face forward. As far as speculation goes, you were the one who said:

you are trying to belittle something you know nothing about–so let’s just drop it.

And let’s not forget the “liberal professors of humanities” quip, making yet another assumption about my education.

Let the record reflect that you were the one who drew the Ad Hominem foil, and I am answering to you very simply: either prove it or back down. I know nothing of tango? Fine, I’m more than happy to place my credentials on the table. You, sir, do the same or shut up.

53

Kainscalia, I never said you know nothing about tango. I suggest you read or listen more precisely before you engage somebody about something he says. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are honestly mistaken. But based on your behavior here I’m not holding my breath waiting for an apology.

And that was not a “quip” about your education. I was identifying the IDEAS that you subscribe to.

54

Kainscalia, I never said you know nothing about tango. I suggest you read or listen more precisely before you engage somebody about something he says.

Then perhaps I suggest you strive to write your ideas more clearly.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are honestly mistaken. But based on your behavior here I’m not holding my breath waiting for an apology.

Why should I apologize to you? You have given me no reason to consider you to be right- all you have done is tell me I am wrong, but given no actual argument as to why I am wrong, outside of perhaps trying to classify me as a walking cliché.

And that was not a “quip” about your education. I was identifying the IDEAS that you subscribe to.

Then go ahead and discuss the right ideas, spare me your disdain and flippancy. Otherwise, don’t be surprised if I am hostile towards you.

55

I was thinking of learning Tango, but I think that I’ll stick with swing dancing. Tango sounds much too angry. :lol:

56

IT’S PASSION, GODDAMNIT!

*tears clothing*

I was thinking of learning Tango, but I think that I’ll stick with swing dancing. Tango sounds much too angry. :lol:

57

I’ve said this before, but there seems to be something rather reminiscent of a Hemlock Smoothie here.

This from someone involved ina flame war about dancing?

I mean, dancing. It’s not as if it were politics, religion or Star Trek :lol:

58

The difference is bitterness. I’m not bitter, simply confrontational :wink:

Now get off my lawn.

Damn kids.

This from someone involved ina flame war about dancing?

I mean, dancing. It’s not as if it were politics, religion or Star Trek :stuck_out_tongue:

59

The difference is bitterness. I’m not bitter, simply confrontational :stuck_out_tongue:

To quote the great Victor Hugo “?”

Or in modern terms: :wink:

60

I was thinking of learning Tango, but I think that I’ll stick with swing dancing. Tango sounds much too angry. :wink:

Don’t let the flame war turn you against Tango, aequalsa. I would hope that if you look around your city you will find a place to study Tango that approaches the dance with civility and sweetness like I have found.