Did this “price gouger” do anything wrong?

On 4/30/2020 at 5:18 PM, StrictlyLogical said:

In voluntary exchange value is always added as between the parties.  When one capitalizes on anything, including misfortune, one IS adding value… that is how voluntary exchange occurs.

Most of what you said is fine to the extent that there are rational reasons to increase the price of something when demand skyrockets for any reason at all.

But it doesn’t follow that voluntary exchange is always positive value-added to you as an individual. Any person can provoke irrational reasons to seek out a product, including the active promotion of being second-handed. For example, the reason diamonds cost so much is because De Beers essentially wanted to create a situation where people only want the diamonds for the status symbol, and not for any other reason. Of course people may voluntarily seek this out, and some people in the world really do seek things out merely because somebody else has the same thing. So anyone who buys diamonds for second-handed reasons, and you as a business person want to promote those second-handed reasons, you would be doing business for the wrong reasons. You briefly mention this sort of thing, but the question posed by LER focused on whether the people in this case were acting morally.

In this situation, I don’t see any reason to say that anyone acted wrongly or did business for the wrong reasons. We just wouldn’t want to justify it for the wrong reasons, or make it seem that all business transactions that are voluntary are unimpeachable. 

12 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Most of what you said is fine to the extent that there are rational reasons to increase the price of something when demand skyrockets for any reason at all.

But it doesn’t follow that voluntary exchange is always positive value-added to you as an individual. Any person can provoke irrational reasons to seek out a product, including the active promotion of being second-handed. For example, the reason diamonds cost so much is because De Beers essentially wanted to create a situation where people only want the diamonds for the status symbol, and not for any other reason. Of course people may voluntarily seek this out, and some people in the world really do seek things out merely because somebody else has the same thing. So anyone who buys diamonds for second-handed reasons, and you as a business person want to promote those second-handed reasons, you would be doing business for the wrong reasons. You briefly mention this sort of thing, but the question posed by LER focused on whether the people in this case were acting morally.

In this situation, I don’t see any reason to say that anyone acted wrongly or did business for the wrong reasons. We just wouldn’t want to justify it for the wrong reasons, or make it seem that all business transactions that are voluntary are unimpeachable. 

To the extent irrationality might be exploited, there is point lurking somewhere in here.

I hesitate to stand as judge of third party transactions, and to scrutinize them from my external point of view into the niceties of “subjective value” versus “objective value”.  In cases such as art, fashion, and even so called “culture” (as I disparaged previously), perhaps these things are contextually, objectively a value to a person who is not me, however “irrational” they might appear from my perspective. 

I might think for the life of me "There can be no way such things actually lead to flourishing… " but I do not have the context or personality of the other person, I cannot know whether the social status chasing diamond ring purchaser, is actually driven to greater wealth, better shelter, health and happiness, through the pursuit and achievement of things like those rings… a person is a whole and its not so simple a question, and judge the entirety of a person based on a single “guilty pleasure” absent a full understanding of the whole would be misguided.

 

As for allowing such transactions, as Leonard Peikoff pointed out, you cannot force someone else to make “good choices”, the fact of force makes it bad.

 

On the other hand we have things which we all like to think we can easily identify as clearly “objective disvalues” even if they appear to be subjective values, or at least voluntary pursued.  Substance abuse or other clearly self-destructive indulgences top the list… [there have been some interesting discussions about the choice to indulge in pornography and its effects on sexual attraction in marriages and hence have very large repercussions to the individual’s happiness.]

 

So how do we reconcile what appear to be disvalues made possible from non-interference (porn being legal and drugs or sex trade should be legal) with our justification of non-interference being that force is the greater wrong?  Are there not some “transactions” such that it would be “right” (in the final balance) for someone on the outside to interfere?

Again, I think this comes down to the complexity of being human.  OF course, when someone is incapacitated and/or clinically addicted in the context of substance abuse, the person might lack the true agency in order to call the transaction voluntary… this is a very special case and it is not simple either.  But in other cases, less extreme self-destructive behavior might be the way that a person works through something in life… and our intervention with force might be counterproductive in addition to being wrong.  No matter how odd it seems from the outside, a person who does not seem to do what is right for themselves… might be the only one who is aware (even if only intuitively or subconsciously) how to get to the “other side”.  Of course with others… it might simply lead to suicide…

 

In the end, people are complex and should be free, so the principles of unfettered capitalism are sacrosanct.  As the maxim regarding criminal law sates (paraphrased) “better to let ten criminals to go free than to falsely imprison one innocent person”, so too we must grant people freedom to pursue their own lives.

What people can do if they wish to, is to fund voluntary organizations to persuade people against what they see as disvalues, and to support organizations and charities which encourage and fund people to get counseling.

 

All the above said, my use of “anything” when referring to “value” (implicitly whenever an Objectivist uses the term value in an unqualified manner they mean “objective value”) was a bit overbroad.  I stand by the following amended statement:

 

“In voluntary exchanges of values, value is always added as between the parties, and when one capitalizes on misfortune, one IS adding value… that is how voluntary exchange occurs.”

 

 

4 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

I cannot know whether the social status chasing diamond ring purchaser, is actually driven to greater wealth

I didn’t mean that people who buy diamond rings always do it for the wrong reasons, plus I’m focusing on the business, not the customers. I’m saying that if you promote a product for immoral ends, you are equally guilty of promoting that way of thinking. De Beers, as a company, is morally culpable by trying to promote a culture of social status (a second-handed culture if there ever was one) over a culture based on actual achievements based on the objectives of their marketing strategy. “Diamonds are forever” is all about status, and that’s it. The point is that in principle, if a company does this, they are morally wrong to do so. I really don’t think you are trying to say that second-handedness can sometimes lead to flourishing.

4 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

So how do we reconcile what appear to be disvalues made possible from non-interference (porn being legal and drugs or sex trade should be legal) with our justification of non-interference being that force is the greater wrong?  Are there not some “transactions” such that it would be “right” (in the final balance) for someone on the outside to interfere?

Okay, but I wasn’t talking about interference or being permitted to do these things. Just because I really hate some business for being immoral doesn’t mean that I want to get the government involved. I don’t think there is actually any tension between immoral actions of others  and noninterference.

4 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

 

“In voluntary exchanges of values, value is always added as between the parties, and when one capitalizes on misfortune, one IS adding value… that is how voluntary exchange occurs.”

“Come on down to Racist Roger’s for pancake breakfast! Don’t worry, we don’t serve chicken and waffles here, or the people who eat it!”

We could say subjective value added to convey that racists gain something out of trading with the racist, but Racist Roger’s is guilty of trying to promote a culture of racist judgment about black people. The restaurant is not a positive value to a rational culture because of what it tries to promote, even if Roger himself is not a racist. A non-racist trying to capitalize on the misfortune (racist treatment) of others (say, black people in the South in the 60s) by running a diner of explicitly racist values, hardly a moral businessperson.
 

10 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

Just because I really hate some business for being immoral doesn’t mean that I want to get the government involved.

 

15 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

“Diamonds are forever” is all about status, and that’s it. The point is that in principle, if a diamonds are company does this, they are morally wrong to do so.

What is your definition of morality?

 

In order to make a statement regarding morality you need a standard, what standard of morality are you applying to the activity of the business and how are you applying it?  In fact can a business be an actor which has moral agency?

If so, who (or what) is the proper beneficiary of “moral” action of a business?

2 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

In fact can a business be an actor which has moral agency?

Clearly not. It’s just shorthand for saying “the people in charge of running the business who decide which values should be promoted in the operations of that business”. 

2 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

what standard of morality are you applying to the activity of the business and how are you applying it?

We don’t need to go “back to basics”, you and I are both trying to use Objectivist standards of judgment here. 

So, the proper beneficiaries are first the individuals running the business, and a consideration within that (for themselves) is about the values that their actions promote in society. But you already know this. 

It’s fine to promote products that you personally would not use (there could be many rational reasons someone would use a product that you just haven’t thought of, or things that don’t fit into your life for whatever reason), the problem only comes in if you deliberately try to create demand through the irrationality of others, through ends or motivations that you know are immoral. And of course I don’t mean a contextless absolute - I’m referring to immoral actions that are immoral for anyone by virtue of being human, like being second handed. In this case, with the so-called price gougers, the ends and motivations are positive.

I had a typo in the bit you quoted, I fixed it now just in case that caused any confusion for some reason.
 

1 Like

2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Clearly not. It’s just shorthand for saying “the people in charge of running the business who decide which values should be promoted in the operations of that business”. 

We don’t need to go “back to basics”, you and I are both trying to use Objectivist standards of judgment here. 

So, the proper beneficiaries are first the individuals running the business, and a consideration within that (for themselves) is about the values that their actions promote in society. But you already know this. 

It’s fine to promote products that you personally would not use (there could be many rational reasons someone would use a product that you just haven’t thought of, or things that don’t fit into your life for whatever reason), the problem only comes in if you deliberately try to create demand through the irrationality of others, through ends or motivations that you know are immoral. And of course I don’t mean a contextless absolute - I’m referring to immoral actions that are immoral for anyone by virtue of being human, like being second handed. In this case, with the so-called price gougers, the ends and motivations are positive.

I had a typo in the bit you quoted, I fixed it now just in case that caused any confusion for some reason.
 

Ok, I think I understand you better.

Is it safe to say you think Objectivism holds it is ALWAYS immoral to materially benefit from another person’s irrationality? 

What is the total tally of effects (long range) which causes this to be the case for the actor? How does the actor lose in the long term? Why always?

2 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

What is the total tally of effects (long range) which causes this to be the case for the actor? How does the actor lose in the long term? Why always?

Receiving the benefit without intending to would be fine. It’s different if you to popularize irrationality. I can’t think of an example where this would be okay, except some very extreme scenarios when living under oppressive governments. “Always” wouldn’t be the right word though.

I don’t know why you’re asking this. You’ll have to give me an example where trying to benefit from the irrationality of another person is perfectly good.

3 hours ago, Eiuol said:

I don’t know why you’re asking this. You’ll have to give me an example where trying to benefit from the irrationality of another person is perfectly good.

I suppose if the irrationality manufactured was perfectly limited to creating a trophy or collector type desire for what you offer… like a shiny diamond, then if it stands in the same place as other desired trophies or collections, like stamps or baseball cards… I see no inimical consequences coming back to the CEO of DeBeers for filling his pockets with money while causing less stamp or baseball card collections to exist.

 

Lots of philosophical stuff here that I am learning as I read.

Not a prayer I will ever understand half of it but I’m enjoying trying.