Founding Fathers

If, so then using the word “welfare” was extremely poor wording. Instead it should of blatantly said such.

Perhaps I did not explain my point well. The word ‘welfare’ did not have the attachment it does today to free money given to some at the expense of others. In current usage I might rephrase it to say, “promote the general well being of it’s citizens.”

It was not an altruistic principle. The government was supposed to promote the general welfare by ensuring the liberty of it’s citizens. These guys understood the concept of rights. It was so obvious to them, that it didn’t even occur to them that people would not know what they meant. It took two hundred years of statist supreme court justices and politicians to obfuscate the meaning of the document.

Read the federalist papers or other writings by these men. They understood these concepts then at least as well as I do now. I don’t believe any way of writing a constitution would make it a full proof block against the elimination of rights. Language changes too much over time. All that stops encroaching slavery and statism is a populace educated enough in the processes of critical thinking and knowledgeable enough about the concept of individual liberty to not fall for the ploys con men will always try to create.

So to answer your question explicitly, D’Kian, the language was “twisted and abused.”

There were similarities between their philosophy and Objectivism, but it was no Objectivism. Objectivists would of written up a better Constitution, one without so many holes that lead to the crap modern USA politicians pass. Also, as themadkat said Objectivism had not been formed at the times.

There were definitely similarities; a lot of the Founders’ principles are key ingredients in what Rand later put together – in a much more coherent manner-- in Objectivism. But I think it is unfair to say that Objectivists could have written a better Constitution per se; the fact that a Constitution, accomplishing what it did, even resulted from all their efforts is amazing. Read Madison’s thorough documentation of the Constitutional debates if you have any doubt regarding this. From those documents, you will quickly discover that the greatest obstacle the Constitution had to overcome was finding enough common ground among a very diverse group of men and the constituencies they represented. There was so much disagreement… and yet the areas where there was relatively little disagreement can give us a glimmer of their wisdom. One such example: religious freedom. There was little debate about this – a few crazy men aside – and even though their reasons were more toward acting in favor of individual freedom from state-mandated religion and fees, rather than trying to promote secularism, I think, given the time they were living in, this represents a monumental achievement. Madison pushed heavily for religious freedom, urged on by Jefferson from Paris; Jefferson had authored the Virginia statutes which established the precedent for this freedom as we know it. And that’s only one example.

So could Objectivist have written a better COnstitution? Yes, but what is the likelihood of getting that many like minded individuals together in a room (esp. given the estimated rarity of objectivists discussed in other topics :wink: ) I think it is important to view historical figures in the context of their time. It can be fun and informative to compare them to standards they would have been held to in current times, but it is useless if you are really trying to gain historical understanding. The truth is their achievement was huge… and they knew that. No one walked out of that convention completely satisfied; not even Hamilton, who was the one who really pushed for the abolishment of the Articles of Confederation. If we want to have some fun, and take the FOunders out of the context of their time, I like to imagine what it would be like if we could bring them back today, and let them see what has become of their efforts. I think they would clammer to see the Constitution, and eagerly read through it’s amendments, but I think they would be astounded to see how few there have been. They thought there were more flaws and vague references needing clarification than that! When the Constitution was ratified, all of the members of the Convention knew there were flaws, but they treated it more as a foundational document rather than a perfect outline. It was something to build upon; something, in all honesty, they hoped posterity could work out the fine details on, and many FOunders specifically say that in their private letters. It’s interesting to note the difference in tone and opinion of the Founders in their public and their private papers. Look at Madison and Hamilton, in particular: two of the three authors of the Federalist Papers that were publshed publically to gain support for the COnvention and the document itself. Read their private letters among their closest friend (esp. Madison & Jefferson and Hamilton and any of his political allies) and compare those to what they expressed in public. In public, they were confidant and optimistic, but in private (to their most trusted confidants) they were rationally insightful and doubtful. Kudos to John Adams for really being the only founder who presented his views in public the same way he expressed them in private. But there weren’t many men like Adams then, just as there aren’t many like him now.

Remember: the Founding Fathers (the writers and signatories of the Declaration of Independence) are a different set of people from the Framers of the Constitution (the convention delegates). The Declaration is a resounding philosophical statement, but the Constitution is a compromise. It doesn’t have a coherent philosophy, but parts of it are motivated by the competing philosophies present at the convention. It is not, nor has it ever been (despite over 200 years of judicial struggling to pretend it is) a consistent instrument.

~Q

Perhaps I did not explain my point well. The word ‘welfare’ did not have the attachment it does today to free money given to some at the expense of others. In current usage I might rephrase it to say, “promote the general well being of it’s citizens.”

Maybe, but that doesn’t really matter. As I said, it isn’t the government’s job to provide welfare in any sense.

It was not an altruistic principle.

You should try sticking to what I actually said, because that argument fails to do so. I never said it was altruistic.

These guys understood the concept of rights.

Not fully they didn’t. If they had of fully understood the concept of rights they would never of granted congress the power to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce.

It was so obvious to them, that it didn’t even occur to them that people would not know what they meant.

That was a big mistake. They should of defined what they meant so as to avoid having people not misinterpret them.

It took two hundred years of statist supreme court justices and politicians to obfuscate the meaning of the document.

It doesn’t matter if it took 1 year or 1,000, what matters is that it happened and that it happened because they didn’t explain what they meant so that it could not be misinterpreted. It also matters that by putting in the crap allowing congress to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce. That crap allowed for a lot of the crap that exists today.

Read the federalist papers or other writings by these men. They understood these concepts then at least as well as I do now.

No, they didn’t or they would never of allowed congress the power to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce.

I don’t believe any way of writing a constitution would make it a full proof block against the elimination of rights.

Of course. No one is saying otherwise.

Language changes too much over time.

Yes, sadly that is true as a result of the way people mistreat language.

So to answer your question explicitly, D’Kian, the language was “twisted and abused.”

Some of it, yes. Some of it, no. The parts allowing congress to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce were not.

But I think it is unfair to say that Objectivists could have written a better Constitution per se

I disagree. At the least an Objectivist would be able to improve upon what the forefathers did by not including the crap about regulating interstate commerce and collecting taxes.

the fact that a Constitution, accomplishing what it did, even resulted from all their efforts is amazing.

No disagreement there. :thumbsup:

Read Madison’s thorough documentation of the Constitutional debates if you have any doubt regarding this.

I am not sure if I have the inclination or - more importantly - time to do so, but where can I get that? I might decide to try make time to read it.

From those documents, you will quickly discover that the greatest obstacle the Constitution had to overcome was finding enough common ground among a very diverse group of men and the constituencies they represented. There was so much disagreement… and yet the areas where there was relatively little disagreement can give us a glimmer of their wisdom. One such example: religious freedom. There was little debate about this – a few crazy men aside – and even though their reasons were more toward acting in favor of individual freedom from state-mandated religion and fees, rather than trying to promote secularism, I think, given the time they were living in, this represents a monumental achievement. Madison pushed heavily for religious freedom, urged on by Jefferson from Paris; Jefferson had authored the Virginia statutes which established the precedent for this freedom as we know it. And that’s only one example.

Yes, that is impressive, but that doesn’t wipe out the fact that crap like the interstate regulation and taxation stuff were included and that an Objectivist would not include such.

So could Objectivist have written a better COnstitution? Yes, but what is the likelihood of getting that many like minded individuals together in a room (esp. given the estimated rarity of objectivists discussed in other topics :slight_smile: )

I don’t think that matters. It matters not how many people write the constitution. If one or 1,000 write it it doesn’t matter’ what matters is its contents.

I think it is important to view historical figures in the context of their time.

I am more interested in what their constitution did and didn’t allow. That is all that matters to me. It doesn’t even matter to me whether or not an Objectivist could of done better. All that matters to me is what a constitution does and does not allow.

It can be fun and informative to compare them to standards they would have been held to in current times, but it is useless if you are really trying to gain historical understanding.

True, but I am not trying to do either of those.

The truth is their achievement was huge…

Yes, though it still leaves much to be desired (eg no interstate commerce regulation and no taxation).

If we want to have some fun, and take the FOunders out of the context of their time, I like to imagine what it would be like if we could bring them back today, and let them see what has become of their efforts.

I think they would be very angry, especially if they heard comment’s like Bush’s statement, “The Constitution is just a God damn peice of paper.”

I think they would clammer to see the Constitution, and eagerly read through it’s amendments, but I think they would be astounded to see how few there have been. They thought there were more flaws and vague references needing clarification than that!

If so I think they’d be right. Sadly following government’s didn’t agree with them on that issue. But anyway, I am more concerned with what was allowed than what needed clarifying. I think allowing congress the power to tax and regulate interstate commerce caused more harm than the vague parts.

When the Constitution was ratified, all of the members of the Convention knew there were flaws, but they treated it more as a foundational document rather than a perfect outline. It was something to build upon; something, in all honesty, they hoped posterity could work out the fine details on, and many FOunders specifically say that in their private letters.

That was a mistake. They should of worked on it until they were satisfied.

It’s interesting to note the difference in tone and opinion of the Founders in their public and their private papers. Look at Madison and Hamilton, in particular: two of the three authors of the Federalist Papers that were publshed publically to gain support for the COnvention and the document itself. Read their private letters among their closest friend (esp. Madison & Jefferson and Hamilton and any of his political allies) and compare those to what they expressed in public.

Again, I am not sure if I have the inclination or - more importantly - time to do so, but where can I get them? I might decide to try make time to read them.

In public, they were confidant and optimistic, but in private (to their most trusted confidants) they were rationally insightful and doubtful.

Stopping when one still has doubt is a big mistake.

Remember: the Founding Fathers (the writers and signatories of the Declaration of Independence) are a different set of people from the Framers of the Constitution (the convention delegates). The Declaration is a resounding philosophical statement, but the Constitution is a compromise. It doesn’t have a coherent philosophy, but parts of it are motivated by the competing philosophies present at the convention. It is not, nor has it ever been (despite over 200 years of judicial struggling to pretend it is) a consistent instrument.

That is a pretty big flaw.

It was not an altruistic principle. The government was supposed to promote the general welfare by ensuring the liberty of it’s citizens.

What need for repetition, then? Why “secure the blessings of Liberty” along with “promote the general welfare”? The wording is clear they considered liberty and welfare to be two separate things.

I don’t believe any way of writing a constitution would make it a full proof block against the elimination of rights.

Of course not. Any constitution would contain provisions to amend it. Given that, any change is possible eventually.

Of course not. Any constitution would contain provisions to amend it. Given that, any change is possible eventually.

Not only that but any constitution could be replaced totally, or replaced with another, or altered anyway.

Maybe, but that doesn’t really matter. As I said, it isn’t the government’s job to provide welfare in any sense.

It does matter. Promoting the general welfare is not accomplished by providing welfare. Welfare in the modern sense was not even a concept. The “general welfare” of people is provided for by protecting their liberties, securing their borders, and maintaining peace through diplomacy with other countries. The point I am making which I am not certain you understand is that the meaning of the word is different now from how it was meant.

You should try sticking to what I actually said, because that argument fails to do so. I never said it was altruistic.

And you should try being more polite. That was in response to D’kian’s next statement. I apologize for not making that explicitly clear.

Not fully they didn’t. If they had of fully understood the concept of rights they would never of granted congress the power to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce.

The power to tax seemed necessary at the time to secure liberty and create a country. That power would not be nearly so oppressive as now were it needed only to maintain a government in the strict sense intended.

That was a big mistake. They should of defined what they meant so as to avoid having people not misinterpret them.

I do not think that it is possible to innocently misunderstand the meaning of the preamble. I doubt very much that any additional defining would not be similarly “misinterpreted” by those with a will to do so.

It doesn’t matter if it took 1 year or 1,000, what matters is that it happened and that it happened because they didn’t explain what they meant so that it could not be misinterpreted. It also matters that by putting in the crap allowing congress to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce. That crap allowed for a lot of the crap that exists today.

As above, I do not think any amount of explanation could be so precise as to avoid having those who desire power choose to interpret it to their own benefit. Nor could it be so precise that masses with no understanding of liberty could not vote them away. The 9th and 10th amendments I brought up because they are so specific and have been deliberately ignored by the supreme court for more then a century. Words on paper can not ultimately protect liberty.

No, they didn’t or they would never of allowed congress the power to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce

.

I have some agreement with you here, but the historical context as I understand it was that they viewed this as a necessary evil since the articles did not provide(with money) a way for the government to exist and provide for liberty at all.

Some of it, yes. Some of it, no. The parts allowing congress to collect taxes and regulate interstate commerce were not.

Ironically(perhaps not) that is the only part which has not been interpreted in direct contradiction to its intended meaning. Though I think it is fair to say they have used those more broadly and deeply than they thought were possible.

And you should try being more polite. That was in response to D’kian’s next statement. I apologize for not making that explicitly clear.

I wasn’t rude or anything of the like, so you have nothing to complain about.

The power to tax seemed necessary at the time to secure liberty and create a country.

I know they thought that. That is the mistake I am saying they made.

As above, I do not think any amount of explanation could be so precise as to avoid having those who desire power choose to interpret it to their own benefit.

Oh, of course. However, it could of prevented certain abuses or at least made them harder to bring about had they done so.

Nor could it be so precise that masses with no understanding of liberty could not vote them away.

Again you are trying to address a statement that does not exist.

Words on paper can not ultimately protect liberty.

And again. You know when you try to argue against non-existent arguments all you achieve is making yourself look bad.

I have some agreement with you here, but the historical context as I understand it was that they viewed this as a necessary evil since the articles did not provide(with money) a way for the government to exist and provide for liberty at all.

For a reply to this see my second reply in this post.

Ironically(perhaps not) that is the only part which has not been interpreted in direct contradiction to its intended meaning. Though I think it is fair to say they have used those more broadly and deeply than they thought were possible.

I agree with you 100% on that.

I think people here are taking “promote the general welfare” out of context. Here’s the preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,

establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common

defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to

ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the

United States of America.

The thing is one long sentence with a bunch of parallel phrases; let me remove some of the other ones:

We the People of the United States, in Order to…

promote the general Welfare, …

do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It’s not meant to be a grant of power to the government to “promote the general Welfare”, regardless of what that phrase means; it was one of their reasons for creating the constitution in the first place. It was their belief that having an improved government would just by itself “promote the general Welfare”. Specific grants of power were made in the main body of the constitution. Remember that the government in place before this under the Articles of Confederation was considered by them to be too weak to do its proper job; the country was falling apart; states were levying tariffs on each other, and that was itself causing problems.

The interstate commerce clause was, I agree, a major blunder. The problem it allegedly addressed was states raising tariff barriers against other states; however this could have been taken care of simply by prohibiting that, not giving the power to regulate interstate commerce to the federal government. This is so obvious that it actually makes me somewhat sympathetic with those who claim that the constitution was *deliberately* filled with loopholes for a federal government to amass power.

The Preamble is not positive law. The phrase “promote the general Welfare” in the preamble is not what lets Congress promote the general welfare. The “general Welfare” of positive law comes from Art. I, § 8, cl. 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States…

The Spending Clause gives Congress explicit authority to tax and spend in the promotion of the “general Welfare.”

~Q