Great Description of Objectivist Metaphysics

1 hour ago, KyaryPamyu said:

Yes. Both exist, both are parts comprising the same world, and the absence of either has some consequences for the other, whatever those might be.

In this example, the interaction is between the puffs that make up the external entities, plus the puffs that make up the perceptual apparatus (including the nervous system). The result is the experience of the world of three-dimensional objects possessing color, shape etc. We wouldn’t perceive the primaries (puffs) but the perception would still be real since it’s the product of an interaction that actually goes on in the world.

But in this example, consciousness is an effect of the puffs, and not itself a special kind of puff, hence its ‘immateriality’. Being immaterial does not disqualify it from existing; it still is, but qua_ _effect and not as substance.

The same way the body keeps itself alive by its own action, the brain perceives existence by its own action.

>n this example, the interaction is between the puffs that make up the external entities, plus the puffs that make up the perceptual apparatus (including the nervous system)…

Plus the integrative power of the non-material mind, which “converts” or “translates” the combined “puffs” into an integrated whole called a “percept.”

You forgot to mention the non-material (non-puff-energy) contribution of mind.

12 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

You do seem to believe there is a world out there, albeit you claim that the sensations which reach you are integrated by an act of thinking, which was the fashionable view in Kantianism

He takes a very Hume-ean approach here, which sometimes could look like Kantianism at first blush. So there are sensations, sure, but the very way in which we perceive the world is subjective or at least nonobjective. I don’t know all the details here, but Kant answered or fixed what he saw as problems with Hume’s view, not a completely new answer starting from scratch. Hume probably would say something about most of our thinking being nonobjective, with mere sensations underneath. And so of course the only completely objectively real things are particles and space, as EF said. Modernize that a bit, and we get some reductionism in there, where the mind is ultimately just particles, nothing else, the rest is fantasy or something of no particular causal nature.

Note the paragraph with all his 'somehow’s, which more or less makes fun of seeking causal explanations of extremely complex systems or phenomena. I doubt he is going full Hume here, but as far as things like evolution and the mind, he seems to be suggesting that it is foolish to even claim that we have found a causal and objective explanation of any of these things - unless that explanation involves fundamental particles and things like that. All we have are actually just ad hoc explanations, at best narratives that we tell ourselves.

Another possibility: it could be made into this or that coherent position, if fleshed out and clarified. But that’s probably not it, it’s probably just bullshit (in the Frankfurtian sense.)

On 5/7/2022 at 8:36 PM, Economic Freedom said:

No. Percepts are results of thoughts. The only thing preceding thought is sensation, which is strictly physico-chemical. And yes, that has been established by scientific investigation. 

I already answered this with what you called a “nice save”.  Did you limit your reply to calling it a “nice save” because you don’t really know how to answer it?

 

20 hours ago, Economic Freedom said:

I might possibly grant the independent existence of so-called “fundamental particles” and “space”; but not the representation of those particles+space as processed by perception and higher conceptual thinking: i.e., trees, clouds, rocks, butterflies, etc.

If there were no minds, trees would still photosynthesize, grow, and reproduce, clouds would still block light and in some cases produce raindrops, it would still take more force to break up a rock than as clod of dirt, butterflies would still move by flying and would still reproduce, etc.  They are not just creations of consciousness.

 

20 hours ago, Economic Freedom said:

It’s a bit like saying "If there were no North Pole, the South Pole would still exist. No. “North Pole” and “South Pole” depend on each, as concepts and as geographical locations, for their mutual existence.

If the planet, instead of being a spinning approximate sphere of limited extent, were a spinning approximate paraboloid of unlimited extent, there would be only one pole.  There are two poles, in a certain sense interdependent, because of the specific nature of the planet.

 

20 hours ago, Economic Freedom said:

It’s similar to the phenomenon of “lucid dreaming,” in which the dreamer is just awake enough to grasp that he’s dreaming, but in which he’s asleep enough so that the dream imagery – often an actual narrative story – goes on by itself without his conscious intervention.

What I read about lucid dreaming indicated that in some cases the lucid dreamer can deliberately influence the dream.

 

3 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

it would still take more force to break up a rock than as clod of dirt,

“as” should be “a”.  Sorry for the typo.

5 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

What I read about lucid dreaming indicated that in some cases the lucid dreamer can deliberately influence the dream.

 

Indeed.

6 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

I already answered this with what you called a “nice save”.  Did you limit your reply to calling it a “nice save” because you don’t really know how to answer it?

 

>Did you limit your reply to calling it a “nice save” because you don’t really know how to answer it?

No, I limited it to “nice save” because your intellectual dishonesty in conveniently stretching definitions to cover your weak arguments doesn’t merit more of my time or effort.

1 hour ago, Economic Freedom said:

your intellectual dishonesty in conveniently stretching definitions

What are your grounds for this accusation?

EF: “Give me one example of a thought on this board that _contradicts _Objectivism or any of the ‘inerrant’ scriptural texts of Miss Rand. I haven’t found any so far.”*

On 5/7/2022 at 2:06 PM, Boydstun said:

Keep looking: 1, 2, 3, 

On 5/7/2022 at 6:20 PM, Boydstun said:

4

 

5

On 9/1/2020 at 12:17 PM, Boydstun said:

“As a child, I saw a glimpse of the pre-World War I world, the last afterglow of the most radiant cultural atmosphere in human history (achieved not by Russian, but by Western culture). So powerful a fire does not die at once: even under the Soviet regime, in my college years, such works as Hugo’s Ruy Blas and Schiller’s Don Carlos were included in theatrical repertories, not as historical revivals, but as part of the contemporary esthetic scene. . . .

“[That period’s] art projected an overwhelming sense of intellectual freedom, of depth, i.e., concern with fundamental problems, of demanding standards, of inexhaustible originality, of unlimited possibilities and, above all, a profound respect for man. The existential atmosphere (which was then being destroyed by Europe’s philosophical trends and political systems) still held a benevolence that would be incredible to men of today, i.e., a smiling, confident good will of man to man, and of man to life.” (Romantic Manifesto 1971)

The two theatrical works Rand mentioned were, as evidenced below, not works trotting along without reins of the new communist regime.

Hugo

Pavel Vasilevich Samoylov was a distinguished actor who played the role of Ruy Blas, and in 1923 he was Honored Artist of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic.

Schiller

– From Robert Stevens (2004)

“In his study, Russian and Soviet Theatre—Tradition and the Avant-Garde, Konstantin Rudnitsky recounts that Schiller’s plays held a special place in the theatre of the new revolutionary society of the Soviet Union.

“‘In the Civil War years, the plays of Friedrich Schiller enjoyed huge popularity. Their freedom-loving spirit, their characteristic opposition of heroism and villainy, their wealth of dramatically effective situations—all this guaranteed success with an unsophisticated audience. Intrigue and Love and The Robbers were enthusiastically acted by amateurs in numerous clubs. The Bolshoi Dramatic Theatre in Leningrad, led by Alaxander Blok, Maria Andreevna and Maxim Gorky, opened on February 5, 1919 with a production of Schiller’s Don Carlos’ (Russian and Soviet Theatre—Tradition and the Avant-Garde, page 75,).

“Rudnitsky continues, ‘The attraction of the broad masses to the classical repertoire was explained not only by the fact that the beauty and emotional richness of plays by Griboedov, Gogol and Ostrovsky, Shakespeare and Molier, Schiller and Beaumarchais and other great writers were revealed for the first time to audiences who had previously not had the opportunity of going to the theatre … they served as it were to unite the distant past with the present day and instilled in the audience feelings and ideas close to and consonant with the Revolutionary struggle’ (ibid. 48).

“The Bolshevik revolutionary and literary figure Anatoli Lunacharsky noted of the play that ‘in this, according to Schiller’s idea, first apostle of the idea of freedom, we the people of the revolutionary avant-garde, can in a sense recognise our predecessor … not for one moment does the audience doubt in the final triumph of Posa’s idea, a triumph which Posa himself, of course, could never have foreseen’ (ibid. page 49)”.

6 - next post

 

On 7/31/2021 at 8:59 AM, Boydstun said:

Physical Existence, contra Kant, contra Rand

I had stated above in this thread, in the post Primacies of Existence:

Primacy of existence runs also against Kant when he writes that “apperception, and with it thought, precedes all possible determinate arrangement of presentations” (KrV A289 B345). Against Kant also, and in step with Aristotle, Rand writes: “‘Things as they are’ are things as perceived by your mind” (AS 1036). . . .

Rand spoke in that passage against Kant of “things as they are” and not of “things in themselves.” She was right to avoid the latter phrase because of the well-known shading of it. That latter phrase, down from Kant, intimates a systematic inaccessibility of mind-independent Existence with its Identities by our cognitive faculties. In the same vein, rightly she would reject talk of the transcendental object or talk of noumena and their comprehensive contrast to phenomena, . . .

Talk of “things in themselves” meaning things free of any situation is talk of nothing. “Things in themselves,” meaning merely all that they are, is a sound sense of the phrase and not Kant’s sense when he is contrasting things in themselves with those same things as they are in their external relations such as in their relation to human consciousness. Things in all that they are are what we know part of and know that our known is only part of the all there to be known. Further, existence of a thing is nothing more than—indeed, it is identically the same as—existence of all that a thing is.

Join with this extract from my paper “Existence, We” (83-84 )

If, on the other hand, the space coeternal with the conjectured God is conceived as an immaterial thing, as Platonist Henry More had conceived it, then that conception of space is wrong; physical space having some synthetic geometry or other is required for any apprehension of space(s) and for any intelligence. The conception of an immaterial cosmic intelligence alone with immaterial space is ruled out by need of mind-independent existence for any consciousness; ruled out, I say, provided Existence is most fundamentally physical existence, metaphysically and epistemologically at bottom physical existence.

Then space and time exist with the very necessity that Existence exists and vice versa. Contra Kant, space and time are existents not fundamentally dependent upon our experience or our intelligent existence (nor dependent upon the existence of any other intelligence). Space and time are belongings of Existence. The necessities of space and time are necessities-that, which we ourselves occasion and recognize. Physical necessities of space and time are commonplace; we are cognizant of them, for example, in design, manufacture, and performance of an internal combustion engine. Cognizance of formalities of the surface plane of still coffee in the mug is the stuff of Euclidean plane geometry, as articulated by Euclid or by Hilbert. Formalities of the physical are physical realities, even though formalities as formalities cannot be comprehended without recognition of their independence from indices of particular time and space, essential in physical existence. Formalities of the physical are the antidote to Kant’s transcendental doctrines of space and time.

. . .

Existence is most fundamentally physical existence, and although she declined that conception on occasion, Rand tacitly relied on it in her fundamental metaphysics and conception of consciousness (Rand in Binswanger and Peikoff 1990, 245–47, contra 157 . . . ). To Leibniz, Rand should join me in stressing his own dicta that truth is mentation; specifically, it is a recognition of reality. Eternal facts are logically prior to recognition of those realities. However, that is insufficient assertion of the primacy of existence over consciousness. Most fundamentally, metaphysically and epistemically, Herr Leibniz and Miss Rand, reality is physical existence (contra, for example, Leibniz 1702, 188–89). Rand wrongly held that one’s concept of the physical world is more advanced than one’s concept of existence in general. *  To the contrary, I maintain that notion or concept of physical existence does not wait on either genetic or logical development out of a generalized existence that subsumes _physical existence _and its complement mental existence. We begin with physical existence. World, self, and other are the one and only sort of existence then grasped: physical existence. . . . Physical existence is our fundamental ontology, beginning to end.

And with this extract from EW (85 )

In one’s conscious and subconscious existence is resonance with existence in general, resonance with of-existence in general, and special of the latter, resonance with other person.

_Existence exists _implies existents existing among other existents. Further, the act of grasping the statement _Existence exists _implies performance of and grasp of acts, not only acts of consciousness, but acts of living body. There are no acts of and grasps of consciousness without acts of and intentional grasps with one’s living body . . . . There is no grasp of the externality of existence to subject without grasps of externality to one’s body. If one observes one’s consciousness, one is acquainted with one’s living body and one’s actions with it.

*  Rand in Binswanger and Peikoff 1990, 245–47. Leonard Peikoff (1991) repeats this error: “The concept [existence] does not specify that a physical world exists” (5). Yes, it does. Rand should have treated growth of the concept of physical world in individual development as she treated growth of the concept man (1966–67, 43–45). A parallel error is found in Aquinas in his view that the first object of the intellect, the proper object of the intellect, is being in general and not primarily physical being, even though knowing physical being is chronologically first (_Summa Theologica _I.5.2, 84.7, in Aquinas [ca. 1265–73] 1911, 1997, 44, 808–9).

 

On 5/8/2022 at 11:08 AM, Economic Freedom said:

>You also mention the double-slit experiement, which allegedly shows that consciousness affects the world in some way, 

No, I did not say that consciousness affects the world in some way. I said that observation affects the world in some way. Big difference.

To “observe” something means you have to interact with it in some way, perhaps by simply shining light on it. That won’t affect very much something the size of a boulder (should you be interested in observing a boulder) but it affects something the size of an electron.

Observation entails detection, but the latter does not require observation or any consciousness. Iterference-distributions of particles, such as photons, can be recorded on a photographic plate and the result is there whether anyone looks at the plate or not. Else we are back to arguments with Berkeley in which navigating to the lab and doing experiments are trumped by armchair musings of philosophers.

PS - Quantization of the quantity ACTION and the Heisenberg indeterminacy relation for conjugate dynamical quantities in the quantum regime have nothing to do with observations physically jiggling the observed physical elements.

On 5/7/2022 at 7:06 PM, Doug Morris said:

You are defining “senses” narrowly to include only the workings of the sense organs, and maybe not even all of that.  Epistemologically, the senses include the entire process, some of which probably takes place in the brain, by which perceptions are presented to consciousness.

In this post I made clear that I was talking about consciousness.  I stand by the entire post as true and valid.

Some of the other posts used the word “mind”.  Perhaps the reason we have had trouble with this is that people are using the word “mind” in different senses.  Some have used it to mean consciousness, but EF may have been using it in a sense that includes non-conscious processes.

 

On 5/8/2022 at 10:20 PM, Economic Freedom said:

Plus the integrative power of the non-material mind, which “converts” or “translates” the combined “puffs” into an integrated whole called a “percept.”

You forgot to mention the non-material (non-puff-energy) contribution of mind.

EF, tell me if I understand your position correctly: 

Apart from immaterial mind(s), there are only particles and maybe space. Some of these particles interact with your sense organs, leading to sensations. The immaterial mind (not made of particles) performs an act of thought through which sensations are integrated into percepts.

Reason, integration, purpose etc. belong exclusively to the immaterial mind, and not to some body part.

There are no rocks, trees, and butterflies, only particles. Rocks, trees and butterflies are mental constructs.

The immaterial mind can directly interact with material particles in such a way that it directs the evolution of lifeforms.

The faculty of reason has always existed. Induction is not a valid method of proof because you’re inducing from your own integrations of sensations.

If this is an accurate summary, could you clarify the following?

  1. There seem to be two clashing premises: a) the existence of sense organs or lifeforms, and b) the notion that there are only particles out there, not rocks, trees and butterflies. Which one is it? Does the mind merely integrate sensations, or does it integrate actual, material particles into sense organs, trees and butterflies?

  2. Does the immaterial mind have a physical origin? i.e. the nervous system leads to the immaterial mind, which has a nature of its own and can influence the material nervous system back.

  3. If ideas construct percepts, why do you use scientific experiments to validate your positions? For all you know, the ideas that construct the experiment-percepts could be bogus and not related to reality in any way. Are you counting on a pre-established harmony between what is true and what your innate ideas say?

  4. Whose mind directs evolution?

Thanks.

1 Like

On 5/9/2022 at 6:30 AM, Doug Morris said:

On 5/8/2022 at 9:59 AM, Economic Freedom said:

I might possibly grant the independent existence of so-called “fundamental particles” and “space”; but not the representation of those particles+space as processed by perception and higher conceptual thinking: i.e., trees, clouds, rocks, butterflies, etc.

If there were no minds, trees would still photosynthesize, grow, and reproduce, clouds would still block light and in some cases produce raindrops, it would still take more force to break up a rock than as clod of dirt, butterflies would still move by flying and would still reproduce, etc.  They are not just creations of consciousness.

If there was no mind at all, how would you know trees are growing? Like saying, if “knowing” did not exist, I would know it.

One can make that claim about their own consciousness, as in if I were not around all this would still be happening. But there would have to be a mind to witness what you are saying.

13 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

If there was no mind at all, how would you know trees are growing? Like saying, if “knowing” did not exist, I would know it.

One can make that claim about their own consciousness, as in if I were not around all this would still be happening. But there would have to be a mind to witness what you are saying.

ET, if there can be facts independent of anyone knowing them, there can be the fact of someone knowing them without there being anyone else knowing that fact.

4 hours ago, Boydstun said:

ET, if there can be facts independent of anyone knowing them, there can be the fact of someone knowing them without there being anyone else knowing that fact.

Yes, Boyston, I have an appreciation for that argument, but’s it’s like a discussion about omniscience. If someone knew everything … this or that would happen. I would argue that to think in terms of no minds, or no consciousness at all anywhere eternally, a nonexistent/impossible state and therefore inappropriate (based on some epistemic rule). Kind of like the arbitrary.

A fact is known to be a fact … because it’s knowable (by something somewhere at some time). The eternally unknowable is by definition the non existent.

But one problem with my argument is the temporal causation issue of “when” did consciousness arise. And if it did arise after some evolutionary process, then things had to exist for it to happen before anything was aware of anything. But there is also a counter to that which is knowing is simply a viral or chemical reaction. Kind of like a smoke detector “knows” when there is smoke. As in a plant knows about sunlight, so it gravitates toward it.

ET, surely we do know that if A were both p and not-p, then A is not something that exists. Or that were there no letters in these written words, these written words would not be here. Or that if three points lie in a plane, though not on a single straight line, then they determine a triangle in that plane, a triangle with those points as its vertices. We know all those things, and we know them without proof from premisses, without empirical testing, and without relying on authorities in logic or geometry.

I think it would be cheap to simply define the externally unknowable as nonexistent. Those of us who think all existents are knowable (i.e. any among them is knowable) need an argument to that proposition as its conclusion, and it should be an argument that does not lead down the primrose lane of Hegel.

On the tropism of plants, I have an old description of how certain plant roots, upon being uprooted, align themselves with the direction of gravity and begin to grow downward, where they are more likely to find nutrition and water. The orienting is not merely the root falling downward by gravity pulling it down; it’s a more organically organized response than that, and it shows well how inanimate things can make behavior of organic things happen. It is here, beginning at the bottom of page 188.