Is Objectivism Hopelessly Naive

Right so there’s a lot in there. Why don’t we try to capsulate it further into a single point or two and see if we can untangle it and make things more clearer. To Rand, humans are not “perfectible” in the sense you mean, e.g. Christian ethics holding something impossible to reach as the standard, then condemning men for failing to live up to it. Rather, to her, morality is based on man’s nature and thus a realistic ethics has to consist in behavior possible to man. Where no choice is even possible, morality cannot be said to apply. Thus to her, and most other virtue ethicists in history, perfection means something more like doing one’s best to act virtuously. It is something more like “moral ambitiousness.”

Now that we’ve rescued Rand from the charge of moral utopianism, there is the political aspect that I think you also get wrong in a few crucial ways. You seem to think that the goal of political organization is to get man to act in accordance with objectivist ethics, that this would require substantial regulation, and thus, even if it’s not utopian and impossible, it will be more than the minimal government that Rand envisioned.

Well hold on. The goal of political organization is to allow man to act morally, not to turn him into an objectivist, or even to make him moral. But more crucially, this isn’t possible through politics. Central to the objectivist conception of morality is independence and autonomy. In seeking one’s values, something that was foisted upon you through coercion cannot be of benefit to you. This is why Galt refuses to become dictator of America. He knows it’s pointless. Every person needs to pursue is his interests from his own point of view, and that is why the non-aggression principle of a capitalist society is designed to protect the marketplace of ideas, to allow people to pursue even conflicting values in search for what will benefit our lives. Since human nature is capable of both good and evil, a free society, by not establishing such a legitimated channel for theft and tyranny, discourages the criminal tendencies of human nature and encourages the peaceful and the voluntary. Thus liberty and the free market are necessary to discourage aggression and compulsion, and encourage the harmony and mutual benefit of voluntary interpersonal exchanges, economic, social, and cultural, etc.

But now we come to the heart of what I believe is a pretty common conflationism, especially among those on the left. You speak of “‘men of the mind’ such as robber barons” and, as my previous post point out, you fear that Rand assumes the rich and powerful elite will act ethically instead of rapaciously. But I think this is mistaken because it treats those undesirable features of actually existing and historical capitalism as though they constituted an objection to the free market. This view relies on believing the free market and corporatism are in fact one in the same, whereas those features you point out actually follow from governmetal privilege and, in many cases, the exact regulatory and interventionist measures you yourself (and other leftish inclined people) advocate.

The last point is in regards to your prescriptions. Since your goals seem to be somewhat appropriately anti-corporatist, rather than achieving them through free market means, you prefer to achieve them through broadly (though not what you consider an extreme or authoritarian) statist means. But if the corporate elite uses their wealth and influence to enhance their position in society, why would you expect increasing the power of government over society will do anything other than increase the ability of the wealthy and powerful elite that controls the government to increase their position of privilege. Isn’t that truly a naive view? What if those very same “left” goals could be achieved only through market means? Would that make you support the free market instead?

So how much legislation is necessary to ensure adherence to objectivist ethics? Well none, since that’s not even possible. But how much legislation is necessary to enforce private property rights? My view is that legislative law itself is unnecessary to protect private property rights. Regulation certainly isn’t necessary, and is designed for a different purpose. As far as regulatory agencies go, the FDA is a mass murdering organization that is responsible for countless deaths and should be dismantled completely (cf. Higgs). The EPA is useless, since the general law the protect private property is sufficient to combat pollution. But the EPA was designed not to do that, rather to protect large industries from pollution claims and smaller competition (cf. Coase, Rothbard, and Block.) In a similar vein, anti-trust was put over in the name of protecting the public against monopolistic firms, but actually was organized and passed through by these big businesses themselves, and used to smash each other with (cf. Kolko.) I implore you to look over some of the history of these things.

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The short answer: No. Objectivism is not naive. It is honest.

Thanks 2046 for your wonderfully thorough response. It greatly furthers my understanding of Objectivism. I’ll just make a few minor comments.

But now we come to the heart of what I believe is a pretty common conflationism, especially among those on the left. You speak of “‘men of the mind’ such as robber barons” and, as my previous post point out, you fear that Rand assumes the rich and powerful elite will act ethically instead of rapaciously. But I think this is mistaken because it treats those undesirable features of actually existing and historical capitalism as though they constituted an objection to the free market. This view relies on believing the free market and corporatism are in fact one in the same, whereas those features you point out actually follow from governmetal privilege and, in many cases, the exact regulatory and interventionist measures you yourself (and other leftish inclined people) advocate.

This sounds a bit like those defenders of “true” Communism who say it has never been implemented in real life. My from-each-to-each discussion explains that it can never be implemented in practice because the premises will inevitably lead to results contrary to those intended. I’m not sure how this is different.

The last point is in regards to your prescriptions. Since your goals seem to be somewhat appropriately anti-corporatist, rather than achieving them through free market means, you prefer to achieve them through broadly (though not what you consider an extreme or authoritarian) statist means. But if the corporate elite uses their wealth and influence to enhance their position in society, why would you expect increasing the power of government over society will do anything other than increase the ability of the wealthy and powerful elite that controls the government to increase their position of privilege. Isn’t that truly a naive view? What if those very same “left” goals could be achieved only through market means? Would that make you support the free market instead?

Yes, I am very interested in ways of harnessing the power of markets to achieve other goals. That’s the beauty of “cap and trade”. (Which oddly the Republicans now oppose even though they invented it.) Rather than writing prescriptive regulations on how each company needs to reduce pollution, it allocates the “right” to a certain amount of pollution to each company and allows them to trade them for value. The companies succeed in finding new ways to reduce pollution are able to sell allocations at a profit. Very interesting stuff!

This sounds a bit like those defenders of “true” Communism who say it has never been implemented in real life. My from-each-to-each discussion explains that it can never be implemented in practice because the premises will inevitably lead to results contrary to those intended. I’m not sure how this is different.

Partially or poorly implimented capitalism doesn’t lead to results contrary to those intended. Its just leads to a less free society. If everything were unregulated except the meat packing indusry, it woldn’t cause the market to go haywire, the meat packing industry would just be less productive. Poorly implimented capitalism is better than no capitalism. Ayn Rand agrees with this. For instance she calls fort the defense of Israel against the various Arab nations opposing it. This was on the grounds that while Israel had poorly implimented capitalism (well the poorly implimented socialism also), they were still better than the medievalists surrounding them.

Vaguely free societies can get along, However collectivists tend to kill one another over their differenes in ideology. They are so bent on controlling everything people who don’t conform their opinion are a threat to them. This leads them to dissavow one another all the time.

The soviet union wasn’t socialist (or failed) because -

  • There was a state, and that is still a class. (Anarchism).

  • My traditions and culture were disrespected (Tribalism).

  • No one wants to bow down to Moscow (naitonalism).

  • Only people of similar hertiage and race can really care for on another, attempting to encourage altruism between racis is a Christian myth (Nazism).

  • The Soviet Union wasn’t socialist, it was state capitalism. The state owned the means of production , not the people, who were never given proper representation, and were forced to compete for the favor of the state. (Democratic Socialists)

  • It threw away institutions that could have strengthended the state and thus the nation. It destroyed the church, scared away industrialists, and left the working class as an unorganized mess. All of these pieces could have been brought under the state. (Fascism)

Under all of this though is the fact that collectivists can only say that a certain itteration of collectivism didn’t work because it wasn’t their specific form of collectivism. Individualists on the other hand can see the merits of societies with mediocre levels of freedom and can point out how to improve them.

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Thanks 2046 for your wonderfully thorough response. It greatly furthers my understanding of Objectivism. I’ll just make a few minor comments.

This sounds a bit like those defenders of “true” Communism who say it has never been implemented in real life. My from-each-to-each discussion explains that it can never be implemented in practice because the premises will inevitably lead to results contrary to those intended. I’m not sure how this is different.

Well it is the same, insofar as they are both claiming “this has never been implemented in real life.” Rand’s conception of capitalism is not a description of the current system or of historical reality, but rather a projection of an ideal. According to Sciabarra, "an ‘ideal-type’ [is created by] abstracting liberal referents from historical states, while disregarding nonliberal factors that have been internal to every state in history. For Rand, such concepts as ‘government’ and ‘capitalism’ are socially transformative; their ‘ideal’ character is latent in currently distorted social forms.” (Sciabarra, Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical, p. 283.) It is in this way she means “unknown ideal.” In saying that you call into the conflationist trap, I am saying those features of the current system you point to are products of the nonliberal factors, not the liberal ones.

How are the two claims different then? Obviously they differ in regards what they think is desirable (socialism and capitalism), but if you think that attempting to implement one thing leads to different results, then they also differ in terms of what outcomes each side thinks socialism or the free market will produce. In that case, the difference in our positions is simply over the latter. Since I agree the attempt to implement socialism leads to something different than what the socialists themselves describe, I have nothing to add there. But I also think interventionism leads to something different than what you think it will, and that only the free market will reliably lead to results that I, and to a large extent you and most people, desire.

I think on the Randian grounds, the current economic landscape is a corporate state produced not of free competition but of government intervention, including not only direct subsidies, grants of monopoly privilege, and barriers to entry, but also a regulatory framework that enables firms to socialize the various costs and externalities, while pocketing the benefits, and leaving employees and consumers with a straitened range of options. In the absence of government intervention, we maintain, the market would not resemble anything like the current system dominated by a group of large corporations with their current form, and might perhaps even involve greater worker empowerment and solidarity (!).

Yes, I am very interested in ways of harnessing the power of markets to achieve other goals. That’s the beauty of “cap and trade”. (Which oddly the Republicans now oppose even though they invented it.) Rather than writing prescriptive regulations on how each company needs to reduce pollution, it allocates the “right” to a certain amount of pollution to each company and allows them to trade them for value. The companies succeed in finding new ways to reduce pollution are able to sell allocations at a profit. Very interesting stuff!

But if, crucially, the free market refers to the sphere of voluntary human interaction, then such markets cannot be created by government force. I think cap and trade represents another government-corporate partnership designed to rip the rest of us off. In our view, polluters who damage others’ property are simply forced to stop and to pay restitution. They are not granted arbitrarily the “right” to pollute a certain amount, and thus they cannot trade this right in return for various privileges.

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