Marxism

49 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

Look Plasmatic, the only purpose of a philosophical forum is to engage those with whom one disagrees.  

This is not just any philosophical forum and what you suggest is ridiculous. It may be your only reason for being here but there any number of reasons for folks to visit this Oist forum.

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Laika has clearly come here because he is questioning Marxism.  He is precisely the type of person that Objectivists should hope to come to this site…If someone doesn’t agree with me I don’t just castigate them as “people who hold evil beliefs.”

 Nowhere have I claimed that mere disagreement makes one guilty of “holding evil beliefs” nor have I claimed Laika is not questioning Marxism.

 

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If Objectivism is to have any influence in the wider reaches of society, then it will need to engage that society.

But not on their terms, conceding their errors as praiseworthy and without moral tolerationism. 

Your clearly ignorant of the wider debate on this front. 

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Not everyone has the temperament to do that

Nor the understanding, clearly…

11 minutes ago, Plasmatic said:

But not on their terms conceding their errors as praiseworthy and without moral tolerationism. 

The reason I threw out the Thunderbolt Universe reference was to demonstrate that even intelligent people (and yes, I do think you are intelligent) can follow completely unfounded and erroneous beliefs with the best of intentions.

2 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

The reason I threw out the Thunderbolt Universe reference was to demonstrate that even intelligent people (and yes, I do think you are intelligent) can follow completely erroneous beliefs with the best of intentions.

You threw it out because you wanted to make a strawman without having to argue the merits of the actual discussion, or what ideas within the link may or may not have merit. 

Do you have any idea how your last statement is dealt with in Oist philosophy and how it informs my question initially posed? 

54 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

A significant part of my professional career has been spent teaching interns.  I enjoy trying to communicate knowledge.  If someone doesn’t agree with me I don’t just castigate them as “people who hold evil beliefs.”

If Objectivism is to have any influence in the wider reaches of society, then it will need to engage that society.

When interns ask questions that I cannot directly answer, I try to provide them with the questions they need to ask, and direct them to the people to which they need to ask in order to gain access to the answers they seek.

The influence Objectivism has to offer is not directly embedded in the individuals that seek to spread them to the wider reaches of society. Rand’s ideas are either true and stand on their own recognizance, or they are not, and will fall of their own accord.

On that note, is it Objectivism that needs to engage society on societies platitudes of its own merits, or is it society that need come to terms with that which it desires to engage with?

10 minutes ago, dream_weaver said:

On that note, is it Objectivism that needs to engage society on societies platitudes of its own merits, or is it society that need come to terms with that which it desires to engage with?

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In a civil society, people engage in debate to resolve disagreements.

By using the passive voice, you are committing a reification fallacy by treating “Objectivism” as something other than the thoughts, ideas and actions of the many people who self-identify as “Objectivist.”  No different that a Collectivist who reifies “Society”.

Are you the arbiter of all things Objectivism?  Is Plasmatic?  Am I?  Leonard Peikoff?  How about the Ghost of Ayn Rand?

Who exactly is this “Objectivism that needs to engage…” ?
 

45 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

In a civil society, people engage in debate to resolve disagreements.

If they have something to gain from  doing so. And this is not even the issue being contended with.

53 minutes ago, Plasmatic said:

If they have something to gain from  doing so. And this is not even the issue being contended with.

Feel free to pose any question you wish and I will answer it honestly. If you want me to provide detailed sources so you know I am telling what I believe to be the truth, I will. 

I can’t really say any more than that… *shrugs*

whether you are dealing with a Marxist or not, the evidence is still the basis of any rational judgement. Not simply the person saying it. 

9 hours ago, Plasmatic said:

Regarding my response to your comment I excerpted previously; there is no such thing as non-rational persuasion. To persuade is to make rational arguments such that another accepts your premises as true. This should not be a controversial claim.

It is a controversial claim.  Rational argumentation is the only way to reach truth, but there are people who value something else more than truth and for them other methods are appropriate.  See for example the books authored by Robert Cialdini, a long list of books on salesmanship tactics including Donald Trump’s own Art of the Deal, or the histories of each of the world’s religions and how they spread.

 

 

1 hour ago, Grames said:

It is a controversial claim.  Rational argumentation is the only way to reach truth, but there are people who value something else more than truth and for them other methods are appropriate.  See for example the books authored by Robert Cialdini, a long list of books on salesmanship tactics including Donald Trump’s own Art of the Deal, or the histories of each of the world’s religions and how they spread.

 

 

So, because some irrational people don’t value truth an Oist should use a non-rational method similar to the way religions spread, to “persuade” others???

OK, has anyone checked to see if Grames’ account has been hacked?

10 hours ago, Laika said:

Feel free to pose any question you wish and I will answer it honestly. If you want me to provide detailed sources so you know I am telling what I believe to be the truth, I will. 

I can’t really say any more than that… *shrugs*

whether you are dealing with a Marxist or not, the evidence is still the basis of any rational judgement. Not simply the person saying it. 

Laika, I’m sure NB’s foolish comments lead you to think that I am questioning the veridity of your comments on Marxist doctrine (regardless of the doctrines falsity) but that is not at issue here, at all. 

A agree with your last statement and thats why I object to the things I quoted that are contrary to it.  

13 hours ago, New Buddha said:

In a civil society, people engage in debate to resolve disagreements.

By using the passive voice, you are committing a reification fallacy by treating “Objectivism” as something other than the thoughts, ideas and actions of the many people who self-identify as “Objectivist.”  No different that a Collectivist who reifies “Society”.

Are you the arbiter of all things Objectivism?  Is Plasmatic?  Am I?  Leonard Peikoff?  How about the Ghost of Ayn Rand?

Who exactly is this “Objectivism that needs to engage…” ?
 

Who decides what is right and wrong? This smuggles in a false premise. Metaphysically, the only authority is reality. Epistemologically, it is one’s own mind. The former is the ultimate arbiter of the latter.

I prefer the identification of facts over engaging in debate. If others wish to disagree with facts, what does engaging them in debate resolve?

More pertinent to the thread topic would be Rand’s astute assessment:

The answer, here as in all other moral-intellectual problems, is that nobody “decides.” Reason and reality are the only valid criteria of political theories. Who determines which theory is true? Any man who can prove it. —The Objectivist Newsletter: Vol. 4 No. 2 February, 1965 • Who is the final authority in ethics?

 

3 hours ago, Grames said:

It is a controversial claim.  Rational argumentation is the only way to reach truth, but there are people who value something else more than truth and for them other methods are appropriate.  See for example the books authored by Robert Cialdini, a long list of books on salesmanship tactics including Donald Trump’s own Art of the Deal, or the histories of each of the world’s religions and how they spread.

Why do you think salesmanship tactics would persuade people to abandon their worldview? I think changing a person’s fundamental values is likely to work differently from persuading them to buy something. People typically put up a lot of resistance to that kind of change because they view their worldview as part of their identity.

As

23 minutes ago, William O said:

Why do you think salesmanship tactics would persuade people to abandon their worldview? I think changing a person’s fundamental values is likely to work differently from persuading them to buy something. People typically put up a lot of resistance to that kind of change because they view their worldview as part of their identity.

One wouldn’t attack their whole worldview at once with salesmanship tactics, but rather chip away at the margins and sow doubt.  This technique is compatible with the Objectivist “spiral of knowledge” and “crow epistemology” theories.  No one can comprehend a topic all at once so address smaller aspects separately and from different directions over time.  

3 hours ago, Plasmatic said:

So, because some irrational people don’t value truth an Oist should use a non-rational method similar to the way religions spread, to “persuade” others???

OK, has anyone checked to see if Grames’ account has been hacked?

Well its either that or shoot them in the face when they come to take you away to the reeducation camp.  My way is more humane.

32 minutes ago, Plasmatic said:

Laika, I’m sure NB’s foolish comments lead you to think that I am questioning the veridity of your comments on Marxist doctrine (regardless of the doctrines falsity) but that is not at issue here, at all. 

A agree with your last statement and thats why I object to the things I quoted that are contrary to it.  

Ok. I wasn’t 100% sure. The internet doesn’t communicate the tone of comments very well. so no worries.  :smiley:

In fairness, you’re perfectly entitled to point out the inconsistencies in my post. Dialectics is a maze and its easy to get lost. The problem is in trying to come to terms with Marxism being evil and yet so very human. its very “raw” set of emotions, personal and difficult to communicate. Orwell was right when he said that in principle “the party” would go as far as to say 2+2=5 but actually re-learning how to think is a messy business. I hope that sharing the experience still have value though. 

1 hour ago, dream_weaver said:

Who is the final authority in ethics?

You decide for yourself, and I do likewise for myself.  If we disagree on a solution to a problem common to both of us then we either try to find a mutually beneficial solution or we follow Frost’s adage: Good fences make good neighbors.

Most complex man-made problems have multiple solutions.

From Metaphysical vs. Man-Made in the lexicon:

It is the metaphysically given that must be accepted: it cannot be changed. It is the man-made that must never be accepted uncritically: it must be judged, then accepted or rejected and changed when necessary. Man is not omniscient or infallible: he can make innocent errors through lack of knowledge, or he can lie, cheat and fake. The manmade may be a product of genius, perceptiveness, ingenuity—or it may be a product of stupidity, deception, malice, evil. One man may be right and everyone else wrong, or vice versa (or any numerical division in between). Nature does not give man any automatic guarantee of the truth of his judgments (and this is a metaphysically given fact, which must be accepted). Who, then, is to judge? Each man, to the best of his ability and honesty. What is his standard of judgment? The metaphysically given.

[One must] distinguish metaphysical facts from man-made facts—i.e., facts which are inherent in the identities of that which exists, from facts which depend upon the exercise of human volition. Because man has free will, no human choice—and no phenomenon which is a product of human choice—is metaphysically necessary. In regard to any man-made fact, it is valid to claim that man has chosen thus, but it was not inherent in the nature of existence for him to have done so; he could have chosen otherwise. For instance, the U.S. did not have to consist of 50 states; men could have subdivided the larger ones, or consolidated the smaller ones, etc.

In regard to nature, “to accept what I cannot change” means to accept the metaphysically given; “to change what I can” means to strive to rearrange the given by acquiring knowledge—as science and technology (e.g., medicine) are doing; “to know the difference” means to know that one cannot rebel against nature and, when no action is possible, one must accept nature serenely. . . . What one must accept is the fact that the minds of other men are not in one’s power, as one’s own mind is not in theirs; one must accept their right to make their own choices, and one must agree or disagree, accept or reject, join or oppose them, as one’s mind dictates. The only means of “changing” men is the same as the means of “changing” nature: knowledge—which, in regard to men, is to be used as a process of persuasion, when and if their minds are active; when they are not, one must leave them to the consequences of their own errors. . . .

To deal with men by force is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion.

Rand spent the better part of her adult life trying to persuade others to accept the veracity of her ideas.  And, by all accounts, not only did she not back down from a good debate, she relished them.  They were a way for her to hone and sharpen her ideas by constantly forcing her to check her premises.

Laika is not presenting a case for Marxism - just the opposite.  He fully understands it’s weaknesses.  He’s on this forum trying to find another philosophy.

59 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

Rand spent the better part of her adult life trying to persuade others to accept the veracity of her ideas.  And, by all accounts, not only did she not back down from a good debate, she relished them.  They were a way for her to hone and sharpen her ideas by constantly forcing her to check her premises.

To add on to this …

She was a fiction writer, a writer of such scenes as 

  • Kira getting shot by Soviet border guards as she tries to flee that country
  • “Howard Roark laughed”
  • Hank Rearden holding the lifeless body of the young man only referred to the “Wet Nurse”
  • Eddie Willers getting stranded on a broken down train in a desert

We would have never heard of Ayn Rand or read her nonfiction if not she had not first been able to make powerful emotional fiction first.  She came up with her ideas known as Objectivism for the sake of her fiction.  One type of persuasion can lead to others. 

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38 minutes ago, Grames said:

One type of persuasion can lead to others.

Rhetoric used to not be a dirty word.  Aristotle was the master.

On 7/1/2017 at 5:13 PM, Plasmatic said:

Why would an Oist grant this ridiculous premise? Almost nothing Laika said is remotely true. 

Has anyone else observing this and other recent threads been at least struggling to countenance how some have been responding to Laika? (Qualitativley, the nature of the responses)

What is ridiculous about that premise?

What did Laika say that isn’t true? (Explain please, not just quotes that aren’t arguments or description of errors)

Would you list some non-rational means of persuasion?

I’m hoping that might help you make a more persuasive explanation of your ideas.

For what it’s worth, I like Laika’s posts for showing the psychology of a self-professed Marxist. That’s different than any of us who have studied Marxism, yet didn’t dive into the way a Marxist feels about the world.

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