Peikoff For Kerry?

I pretty much agree with Capleton that we are already well on our way to becoming a socialist state–but nowhere near becoming a theocratic state.

I highly doubt the Right’s ability to turn America into a theocracy. They’ve failed with the gay marriage amendment and the abortion issue, but the Left on the other hand has already successly got hundreds of thousands of pages of costly socialist/environmental regulations passed, and is about to add a million more.

The Right may be the threat IN THE LONG RUN, but Bush will be president only for the next FOUR more years. The Left, on the other hand, is an IMMEDIATE threath.

A bigger point Mr. Peikoff makes is that Christianity is winning. (Sorry Betsy.)

The snippet on www.peikoff.com is short and there is obviously to

the talk which is not public. The thesis of the published snippet is that

a large percentage of Americans are very serious Christians (25%) and that

Bush is one such person, who will move the country closer to a theocracy.

I think…

  1. The Passion of Christ was a blockbuster. I know that many people in my

office saw it. I would say that a few of them would consider themselves "good

Chirstians", but they have too many decades of nihilist upbringing to ever

impose their religion on others. Most of the others who saw the movie did so

out of curiosity. Neither group would be likely to watch the Ten Commandments

if it were showing on free TV.

  1. Bush attacked a secular state. True. He did not do so *because* it was secular.

He did attack the Taliban in Afghanistan. It is true that Bush says that Iraqis should

have an Islmaic constitution if they see fit. This isn’t theocratic thinking, it is

multiculturalism 101 combined with the common fallacy that democracy is the

highest ideal of politics.

In my opinion Bush attacked Iraqi because that was the only “real” country against

whom American (and Arab) public opinion would allow an attack. A politically pragmatic

decision.

In retrospect, it might have been the easiest way to get a few hundred thousand

US troops on the Iranian border. (But, being politically pragmatic, Bush dare not say that.)

  1. Stem Cell research. Yes, Bush curbed it; but he didn’t ban it completely.

His decision is typical: politically pragmatic. He had to do enough to be able to

tell the religious right how he stood up for them.

  1. Gay marriage. Bush proposed a constitutional amendment. What can be more

politically pragmatic than suggesting something that you know can never happen!

And even if it does – which it will not – it is hollow word-play.

  1. One state (Missouri?) did pass a referendum banning the use of

the term “marriage” for gay unions. On the other hand, in many primaries

where Christians had fought Republican incumbants who had supported the idea

of “gay marriage”, the incumbents won anyway. This is in spite of the

fact that only 20% of the more extreme party-members vote in primaries.

  1. The morning after pill has been made legal under Bush. Again, in a politcally

pragmatic move, the FDA banned over-the-counter sales. This is not good.

(The pill must be taken within 72 hours.) Yet, it is not an outright ban.

There is no doubt that the Republican strategists understand that they have

to get the extreme-Christian vote if they want to win. The way they see it, the only

way to win is to turn out that vote. That means that one has to have one or two

issues that get that base excited (mad or glad) and then pose as their clear

champion on that issue.

There is a large active liberal base in this country. Just today I heard a story on PBS

about liberal groups that sent “spies” to churches to listen to sermons.

They were given checklists of things that, if said, could be used to complain

the the IRS and remove the tax-exempt status of churches.

It took al Qaeda years to pull off 9/11, and that attack only killed 3,000 people.

It was intended to kill upwards of 100,000 people. It could have done that.

They could drop a nuke on New York and Los Angeles,

Given the rate of their increase in scale, and this is not to be discounted. They’ve demonstrated a vicious hatred combined with the ability to coordinate multiple teams. They have access to nukes, from Pakistan, the Russian Black Market, and others.

If they nuke NY, LA, DC, Atlanta, and Chicago then the United States of America would not survive. Sure, there would be many people left alive. But there would be two problems. First, food and other basic necessities. Such an attack would wreck our economy. Second, a dictatorship would emerge. People would not understand the cause of their woes, and a slick-talking Hitler type of man would emerge with strong rhetoric.

If we don’t actively combat the Christians, they will fill the vacuum and censor and brutalize those who stand up for reason. Make no mistake about that. Read your history.

AMERICAN history?

We certainly have more than four or even eight years before this country caves to militant Islam.

Kerry and many of supporters are prepared to cave right now. If the President – the Chief Executive – caves, nobody else can do anything about it. For evidence see how President Carter handled the Iran Hostage Crisis – and its consequences.

But how many years do we have before Christianity is a staple of our government? How many years before the vacuum has been filled by religion?

Do you mean theocracy? If so, just how would that come about? Would the First Amendment be repealed? Would there be a religious test for office? Would an army of Christian Soldiers storm and take over the Capitol?

A bigger point Mr. Peikoff makes is that Christianity is winning. (Sorry Betsy.)

I heard what Dr. P had to say and I respectfully disagree for reasons I am presenting here and on HBL.

In the past half-century of growing terrorist threats, the only POTUS to launch not one, but two full-scale wars against terrorist states is Bush. Despite rhetoric, despite stumbles, errors, and compromises, he is prepared to act in our self-defense, and is continuing to do so. He is doing a better job than any POTUS in fighting terrorism.

The only way to end terrorism is to end terrorists, the states that support them, and the ideologies that create them. Bush is doing the first and somewhat doing the second and third. Many people in the military and intelligence fields understand the role Iran and Saudi Arabia play in fostering the Wahabi version of Islam. I don’t know what, if anything, Bush is doing behind the scenes with these two countries. But I disagree with the idea that Bush somehow doesn’t grasp the role this particular religion plays in fostering terrorism. (He probably doesn’t see the connection between force and religion as such. That is an even broader identification, and it is the normal order of things to grasp lower-order principles before inducing the broader point, so the fact that he himself is religious doesn’t necessarily mean he can’t see one particular religion as evil.)

Some Objectivists wish to send a message by voting for Kerry that we need a stronger commander in chief. But what message would be received if Kerry won? It would be a repudiation of Bush, since Kerry is running on the unofficial “anyone but Bush” slogan. The primary plank of Bush’s campaign is the war on terrorism. Therefore the message of a Kerry victory would be a rejection of Bush’s efforts. And what is Bush known for? His supporters think he is winning the war, while his haters think he is too hard on other nations, too unilateral, etc. So the message would be: bow to the U.N., pull out of Iraq, don’t profile airline passangers, etc. IOW, surrender and appease.

Is there any evidence that Kerry would be better at fighting terrorism? No. There is plenty that says he would do worse, such as his voting record.

For me, this election is about terrorism, and Bush is clearly doing a better job than Kerry ever could. I plan to vote Republican.

I highly doubt the Right’s ability to turn America into a theocracy.  They’ve failed with the gay marriage amendment and the abortion issue, but the Left on the other hand has already successly got hundreds of thousands of pages of costly socialist/environmental regulations passed, and is about to add a million more.

Now individual states are banning gay marriage in their constitutions. Several have already done this, and more are on the way.

Second, a dictatorship would emerge.  People would not understand the cause of their woes, and a slick-talking Hitler type of man would emerge with strong rhetoric.

Maybe a theocracy would emerge?

Kerry and many of supporters are prepared to cave right now.  If the President – the Chief Executive – caves, nobody else can do anything about it.  For evidence see how President Carter handled the Iran Hostage Crisis – and its consequences.

And after Carter came Reagan (who, whatever his flaws, is at least a little better than Bush). Another Carter could knock some sense into this country.

And after Carter came Reagan (who, whatever his flaws, is at least a little better than Bush). Another Carter could knock some sense into this country.

Like Clinton did?

It has been said around this thread that Christians/the Bible say “turn the other cheek”, or “Christianity doesn’t give them a cause to fight for”, or “The Christians are the uncertain, hesitant and malleable side.”

Forgotten Rome, the Crusades and Dark Ages already? Religion is plastic; it works just as well to rationalize violence and war as it does to rationalize pacifism. Before focussing so narrowly on Christianity’s soft side, you guys need to examine their tough side. I suggest firearms forums. Here’s two:

Glock Talk

Packing.org

By all indications, the religionists are getting much more assertive, taking advantage of the vacuum obligingly created for them by the Left. And why shouldn’t they? They have the Left’s example, *as a secular faith*, to draw upon in their own assault against their enemy. And don’t be fooled into thinking that enemy is the Left. Check your history – religion’s old nemesis is the Enlightenment.

And where is it today?

Betsy S. wrote:

“The right, on the other hand, still retains and respects some American and Enlightenment ideals.”

Hooboy, Betsy, you should read what I’m reading… Russell Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind” (7th revised ed.) which illustrates how tenuous that retention really is. This book has been recommended as a definitive reference by quite a few conservatives I know.

I hereby submit a few passages. Most of these are from Chapter 3, entitled “Romantics and Utilitarians”, which is primarily concerned with Samuel Taylor Coleridge, whom Kirk upholds as one of conservatism’s defining thinkers.

“Coleridge adhered to the Church Fathers and Plato, declaring that full though the eighteenth century had been of enlighteners, it had been terribly empty of enlightenment.” (p134)

“Yet Bentham’s juristic utilitarianism and [Walter]Scott’s consequent indignation are representative of the whole struggle between philosophic radicalism and romantic conservatism.  What the Romantics dreaded in a world subjected to Utilitarian domination was an indiscriminate destruction of variety, loveliness, and ancient rights in the name of a devouring industrialism and a philistine materialism.” (p122)

“For the Understanding, lacking Faith and Intuition, never will suffice to make men wise.  Coleridge distinguishes between ‘Understanding’, – which is ‘the mere reflective faculty’, dependent on the fallible senses, physical perception – and Reason, which is a higher faculty, employing our powers of intuition, the organ of the supersensuous.  Understanding is concerned with means, Reason with ends.” (pp 134-135)

“The theories of Locke were inherited by such diverse legatees as Rousseau in Geneva, Price in the Old Jewrry, Fox in St. Stephen’s, Bentham in  his library, and Jefferson at Monticello; but from among the general ideas of that philosopher, conservatism retained almost nothing but Locke’s contention that government originates out of the necessity for protecting property.”

As for conservatism’s grasp of the Amerian Ideal, I submit these items:

“What men are seeking, or ought to seek, is not the right to govern themselves, but the right to be governed well.”  (p131)

“Social change will indeed make it advisable, from time to time, that new bodies of persons be admitted to share in political power; but they should be considered on the particular merits of their corporate claim, and not as mere individuals seeking to assert a ‘right’ which does not exist in nature.” (p131)

“Upon considerations of expediency and convenience, we may separate the actual operation of government and of churchly authority; but at bottom, Church and State are forever united.” (p 137)

Notice that while modern conservatives rail against the hippies and tree-huggers, one of their definitive thinkers claims the philosophical fathers of the enviro-cult as part of conservatism’s philosophical heritage? And I’m only three chapters in!

This stuff isn’t confined to Kirk, either. Modern conservatives are chanting “Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion”, and attempting to twist the meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment as not specifying the separation of church and state.

Individual conservatives might love America, but conservatism itself is *essentially* anti-Enlightenment and thusly, anti-American. Given that philosophic base, any conflict between religious and free-market conservatives will be won by the most consistent side – the religionists. It is they who are untaming Christianity, resurrecting it “after its drubbing at the hands of eighteenth century rationalism” (Ibid. p136).

Had I the vote, I’d also go for Bush, on the grounds Betsy cited… but fully mindful of how much a contradictory veneer is some conservatives’ “respect for Enlightenment ideals”.

That being said, those contradictory elements do mean that dissent and independent thought might still be occasionally found amongst conservatives, unlike the monolithic Left. Besides, if the conservatives insist on borrowing from us, by all means assist them. Maybe, just maybe, we’ll philosophically co-opt them from within just as the Left did to liberalism. If we do, then “conservative” will be transmuted to its opposite in this century, just as “liberal” was in the last.

But that hasn’t happened yet, and certainly won’t by November.

Dr. Peikoff can.

http://www.peikoff.com/fordhall.htm

Listen to the Ford Hall lecture on The One in the Many.

A more detailed and developed explanation of the DIM terminology is included in Dr Peikoff’s lecture “Integration as the Essence of Personal Identity”.

I still plan to vote for Bush because, all things considered, I think that when it comes to politics, religious conservatives are much more rational than their opponents.

Hence their staid opposition to Stem-cell research. It’s still illegal, and as a result medical progress has ground to a halt.

Their forceful campaign to limit, and eventually prohibit, abortions. Thus far they have been partly successful as partial-birth abortions are illegal.

Under the religious Right our country’s liberties will be curtailed and the country will be unconstitutionally skewed towards fundamentalist Christianity. We will be little better under such circumstances than the islamic world.

I very strongly disagree with your argument, Betsy.

No capitalist in his right mind thinks religious conservatives are much more rational than their “opponents.”

As a capitalist, I consider myself an opponent of religious conservatism.

And after Carter came Reagan (who, whatever his flaws, is at least a little better than Bush). Another Carter could knock some sense into this country.

Incredibly, I’d rather have Kerry than Carter.

Another Carter would give this country a knockout punch. :slight_smile:

Carter would sell America to the enemy, hence his defeat in 1980.

Hence their staid opposition to Stem-cell research.  It’s still illegal, and as a result medical progress has ground to a halt.

As a capitalist, I consider myself an opponent of religious conservatism.

Stem cell research isn’t illegal. There is a ban on federal funding.

As a capitalist, I also am an opponent of religious conservatism. And also an opponent of leftist irrationalism. At the moment, leftist irrationalism is the greater danger, by far.

Christianity offers the greatest religious cause known to man: eternal happiness in Heaven with God.

I was talking about “a cause to fight for.” Christianity promises Heaven as a reward for being a “good Christian” on Earth, which includes a complete abstention from the use of force, be it initial or retaliatory. Liberalism, on the other hand, paints the destruction of man qua man as a noble cause and has no problem with the initiation of force as long as it’s done by Islamist “freedom fighters” or environmental terrorists.

Today’s liberals offer nothing like this.

That’s true, in that liberals don’t cater to the selfish. They don’t offer any rewards, only destruction and suffering. You have to be a complete altruist in order to find anything attractive about liberalism. Which means that liberalism attracts the most dangerous idiots out there and unites them by giving them an ideology.

Currently, the liberals have nothing to offer but scattershot, while Christians are dropping a tank on them.

I think it’s exactly the other way around. Liberalism arms altruists with ideas like environmentalism and multiculturalism, which help them inflict damage on rational men. Christianity merely de-fangs its followers by telling them to behave like masochists.

Christians offer a full moral system

…that is full of contradictions. The Old Testament says “an eye for an eye,” while the New Testament forbids retaliation. To add to the confusion, Jesus says that he did not come to repeal the old law in the very same sermon in which he repeals it. And if all this were not enough, there are thousands of competing sects and denominations that all interpret the scripture differently.

The liberals used to run the show–when they were called SOCIALISTS and COMMUNISTS and had a moral system.

They are called ENVIRONMENTALISTS and MULTICULTURALISTS now, and have a moral system that is even worse.


Altruists used to find Christianity “good stuff” because of its denunciation of wealth and its ethics of self-sacrifice. But that was before the invention of modern liberalism. While the former teaches suffering on earth in exchange for a reward in Heaven, the latter teaches suffering in exchange for NOTHING. Christianity is a weaker form of altruism because it still offers a reward; it is still a sort of quid pro quo if you actually believe in Heaven. Modern liberalism is much more consistent than that: it doesn’t say “pain down here for joy up there,” it says “PAIN, PAIN, PAIN, PAIN, PAIN, then DEATH!” For a man who abhors joy, the “investment offer” of Christianity simply cannot compete with the horror show of modern liberalism.

Forgotten Rome, the Crusades and Dark Ages already?  Religion is plastic; it works just as well to rationalize violence and war as it does to rationalize pacifism.

This stuff isn’t confined to Kirk, either.  Modern conservatives are chanting “Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion”, and attempting to twist the meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment as not specifying the separation of church and state.

Today, Christianity is used almost exclusively to rationalize pacifism. The other thing it’s sometimes used for is to justify retaliation.

Before focussing so narrowly on Christianity’s soft side, you guys need to examine their tough side.  I suggest firearms forums.  Here’s two:

Glock Talk

Packing.org

These are not religious forums.

Notice that while modern conservatives rail against the hippies and tree-huggers, one of their definitive thinkers claims the philosophical fathers of the enviro-cult as part of conservatism’s philosophical heritage?

What does that tell you? It tells me that this Kirk guy is not actually a definitive thinker of modern conservatism.

Modern conservatives are chanting “Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion”

Like it or not, religion should still be legal in a free society. (As long as it doesn’t involve an initiation of force, of course.)

and attempting to twist the meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment as not specifying the separation of church and state.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”–like it or not, these are the words that the Founding Fathers wrote, and they mean just what they mean.

Individual conservatives might love America, but conservatism itself is *essentially* anti-Enlightenment and thusly, anti-American.

19th-century conservatism, yes. Modern conservatism, no.

If we do, then “conservative” will be transmuted to its opposite in this century, just as “liberal” was in the last.

This transmutation has already been on its way for decades ! Modern conservatism has hardly anything left in common with its 19th century namesake. And yes, I agree with you, it would be a good strategy for us to assist the completion of the transmutation.

If you guys are worried about the Theocracy vote Democratic for Congress and leave Bush in for 4 more years of “American Cowboyism”. He is kicking some ass I think and that is his one job other than the Veto. I agree Theocracy scares me but Congress makes the laws they are a bigger threat ( and the Judiciary ) than a President.

If you guys are worried about the Theocracy vote Democratic for Congress and leave Bush in for 4 more years of “American Cowboyism”. He is kicking some ass I think and that is his one job other than the Veto. I agree Theocracy scares me but Congress makes the laws they are a bigger threat ( and the Judiciary ) than a President.

I think this thread is pushing me more towards Kerry.

I haven’t fully thought over my votes for the Congress…I know of one Republican that I will probably vote for. It’s not as if republican = theocracy. There are some Republicans who are great threats and others who are all right. An important question to ask in distinguishing the two is: does this person (if religious) attempt to live by his religion as consistently as he can and to shape the world according to it, or is he essentially guided by the facts with a tad of religion on the side?

Someone mentioned to me that Dr. Peikoff called Bush an M1.5. I think that might just make sense. He isn’t Dark Ages religious, but his religion isn’t just on the side, either.