Should it be illegal for the news media to lie?

I’m using the objective definition, not the subjective “whatever’s illegal” one.

The first lie results in actual physical force, that actually hurts people. People get shoved to the ground and trampled. In the second case, there is no force involved whatsoever (unless the lie does result in the use of force, in which case, like I said above, the lying party should be liable for it in civil court, much like he would be now).

No, the lying party is at fault in both cases. However, in the first case, he is at fault for people losing life or limb (their rights are clearly violated, and violently so).

In the second case he is at fault for something that is immoral, but not a rights violation (the supposed right to a reputation is not a right to life, liberty or property, therefor it is not a right). You have every right to blame someone for harming your reputation by lying about you. But you don’t get to use force against them, because they haven’t used force against you.

Are you forgetting that Ayn Rand defined fraud as a form of force?

A unilateral breach of contract involves an indirect use of physical force: it consists, in essence, of one man receiving the material values, goods or services of another, then refusing to pay for them and thus keeping them by force (by mere physical possession), not by right—i.e., keeping them without the consent of their owner. Fraud involves a similarly indirect use of force: it consists of obtaining material values without their owner’s consent, under false pretenses or false promises.

Now, I would posit that a reputation is something of material value, one which even rational men are compelled to rely upon at times:

How would Washington bureaucrats—or Congressmen, for that matter—know which scientist to encourage, particularly in so controversial a field as social science? The safest method is to choose men who have achieved some sort of reputation. Whether their reputation is deserved or not, whether their achievements are valid or not, whether they rose by merit, pull, publicity or accident, are questions which the awarders do not and cannot consider. When personal judgment is inoperative (or forbidden), men’s first concern is not how to choose, but how to justify their choice. This will necessarily prompt committee members, bureaucrats and politicians to gravitate toward “prestigious names.” The result is to help establish those already established—i.e., to entrench the status quo.

The worst part of it is the fact that this method of selection is not confined to the cowardly or the corrupt, that the honest official is obliged to use it. The method is forced on him by the terms of the situation. To pass an informed, independent judgment on the value of every applicant or project in every field of science, an official would have to be a universal scholar. If he consults “experts” in the field, the dilemma remains: either he has to be a scholar who knows which experts to consult—or he has to surrender his judgment to men trained by the very professors he is supposed to judge. The awarding of grants to famous “leaders,” therefore, appears to him as the only fair policy—on the premise that “somebody made them famous, somebody knows, even if I don’t.”

And based on the above, I would think Ms. Rand would agree.

So, when a reputation is damaged by the deliberate actions of another (reporter or not), material harm IS done, in the same way that fraud causes material harm via indirect force.

If reputation has no value, and damage to one’s reputation is not really damage, then one is compelled by rational necessity to validate every aspect of every person they encounter, including the veracity of the assertion that the fireman in the burning (for real burnin this time) theater who is ostensibly there to save your life really means it. Naturally, this is absurd - you accept the good faith intent of the fireman because he’s at the scene of a fire, he’s dressed as a fireman, and most importantly, because firemen are universally known (or reputed ) to be dedicated to preserving life and property.

(Has FoxNews ever actually published a falsehood? I know about NY Times, CBS, ABC, LA Times, New Yorker and New Republic, but not Fox.)

There is a whole site foxnewslies.net dedicated to sniffing out lies on fox news. You may not like it but it is worth taking a look at.

I think in an Objectivist society we would have sites like these. It would be a good idea to keep people honest.

Are you forgetting that Ayn Rand defined fraud as a form of force?

She didn’t define fraud as a form of force. She explained where the force is in an act of fraud. As did I, above. Yes, fraud invoves force.

But we’re talking about libel, not fraud.

Now, I would posit that a reputation is something of material value, one which even rational men are compelled to rely upon at times

I’m not sure what you mean by material value, but it doesn’t really matter. Rights are defined as the freedom to act, not the right to material values, and they can only be restricted through the use of physical force.

So, when a reputation is damaged by the deliberate actions of another (reporter or not), material harm IS done, in the same way that fraud causes material harm via indirect force.

So what if material harm is done? There are many ways to cause someone material harm, most of them don’t involve the use of force. You can cause someone material harm by telling the truth, too. Should that also be illegal?

The point is, in Capitalism, you don’t have a blanket protection from material harm. You are protected from the use of force. The reason why fraud is a crime is because it involves the use of force.

You have not shown where the force is in libel. You keep trying to evade the need to show that force is involved, by replacing that standard. In reality, there is no force involved. A lie is not an act of force, direct or indirect, unless someone acts on it with force.

Like I said, if that happens, the lying party is responsible for that use of force. But if no force is used at all, then the lie is not a crime. I don’t care what it does to someone’s reputation. You don’t have the right to a reputation. Your rights are to life, liberty and property.

P.S. Are you claiming that your reputation is your property?

P.S. Are you claiming that your reputation is your property?

I’m not going to address your post entirely, because I don’t have the time to do so right now and I recognise that I’ve caused some people some frustration in the past with quick toss off replies that I never come back to.

I do want to point out since you brought it up though that legally reputation can be considered property.

For example, when you buy or sell a business often part of the price is called “good will”. That is - the good will the business has earned and maintained. It is given a recognised material value. Someone who slanders or libels you then, in a way that effects you professionally can in fact be doing you lasting material damage.

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I took a quick look at FoxNewsLies.net and was not impressed. They say (presumably correctly) that Huckabee had opined that Romney ought to demand that Obama release his college applications if Romney releases his tax returns. Translated into crankthink this becomes: Huckabee said Obama is not a citizen. They said that the story of aid to the Brazilian oil industry was a lie, but they gave no evidence. I’m not an expert, but I’ve seen this in several reputable journalistic outlets; I think WSJ is one. When somebody calls a professionally estabished journalist a liar, the burden is on the accuser to document this and to come up with better-attested facts not subject to the doubts the accuser is prepared to raise about the claims at hand, not simply to say “I don’t like it.” They cite MediaMatters, which is crank central USA. Who knew there was anybody with less credibility than that? (And I only spent about ten minutes at FoxNewsLies.)

Jayson Blair, Janet Cooke and the Rather memos are cases where news outlets spread demonstrable falsehoods. These are examples of the standard you have to meet.

My laziness always looks for the simplest solution. Am I being over-simplistic

by demanding nothing more from a limited government than that it protect

individual rights?

It is not my right (surely?) to NOT be lied to. By any source.

When government enters here, (honesty and truth) it is not enforcing individual rights, but morality.

Morality is not the business of g-ment. Let the reader beware.

P.S. Are you claiming that your reputation is your property?

This is a topic about which I continue to find myself confused/uncertain. If you’re interested in looking at it, not too very long ago I participated in a thread that dealt with this very matter. Perhaps some of that discussion will shed some light on the present one?

I’m not going to address your post entirely, because I don’t have the time to do so right now and I recognise that I’ve caused some people some frustration in the past with quick toss off replies that I never come back to.

I do want to point out since you brought it up though that legally reputation can be considered property.

For example, when you buy or sell a business often part of the price is called “good will”. That is - the good will the business has earned and maintained. It is given a recognised material value. Someone who slanders or libels you then, in a way that effects you professionally can in fact be doing you lasting material damage.

I’m not going to argue with the statement “legally reputation can be considered property”. Anything can be considered anything.

Just give me a straight answer, so I can answer it. Is that the argument you’re making? That I cannot dispose of your reputation in any way, because it is your property?

My laziness always looks for the simplest solution. Am I being over-simplistic

by demanding nothing more from a limited government than that it protect

individual rights?

It is not my right (surely?) to NOT be lied to. By any source.

True. And it’s even less so your right to not be lied about.

True. And it’s even less so your right to not be lied about.

Here, I’m not so certain. A lie told to you has no direct correlation with material loss or damage.

(Unless you are very dumb, then it’s your own responsibility if you believe the guy who sells you the Eiffel Tower.)

A lie told about you, however, is 1. outside of your control to respond to. 2. can be financially destructive 3. makes you

an involuntary victim.

By these criteria, wouldn’t this be an objectively criminal act?

I took a quick look at FoxNewsLies.net and was not impressed.  

I merely used it as an example of a way to keep news sources honest. I prefer to have more than one news source.

Here, I’m not so certain. A lie told to you has no direct correlation with material loss or damage.

(Unless you are very dumb, then it’s your own responsibility if you believe the guy who sells you the Eiffel Tower.)

A lie told about you, however, is 1. outside of your control to respond to. 2. can be financially destructive 3. makes you

an involuntary victim.

By these criteria, wouldn’t this be an objectively criminal act?

Point nr. 3 is not a criteria, it’s begging the question. As for the first two, no, it does not. The same criteria fit to someone telling a damaging truth about you to someone behind your back. That’s not a crime, is it?

There is only one objective criteria: whether something is a restriction on your freedom to act within your rights. And there is only one means by which that objective criteria can be met: physical force.

Every other claim of being wronged in one’s rights is an attempt to abuse government power, to force others to do what you perceive to be moral. The altruists believe that welfare is moral. We consider honesty moral. But neither of us has the right to impose our morality on the marketplace.

The line has to be the use of force. Any other line, whether it’s a preference for honesty over lies, or a preference for altruism over selfishness, is an example of a moral code being forced on people who don’t necessarily subscribe to it, and it opens the door on any dominant moral code being forced on everyone, without any kind of political restrictions.

You’re right - fraud *is* force. Fraud is force even without physical action because it deprives the other party of something they rightfully possess, something that also need not be *physical* (such as intellectual property).

Slander and Libel - the deliberate acts of lying about a party - deprives that party of of a reputation that they have earned, substituting for it a reputation that is damaged - a reputation that will be used by others to evaluate their own dealings with that person. (It has already been shown why this use of reputation is a necessity)

So yes, reputation is property, and if your reputation is damaged wrongfully, by fraud, you are deprived of the reputation to which you should be entitled, just as much as if I defraud you in a financial manner and withheld from you money which you should otherwise rightfully possess.

While it is true that you can also cause the reputation harm by telling the truth, if the reputation suffers from the truth, that is because the reputation itself is not deserved, and so you can have no rightful claim to it.

You’re right - fraud *is* force. Fraud is force even without physical action because it deprives the other party of something they rightfully possess, something that also need not be *physical* (such as intellectual property).

Slander and Libel - the deliberate acts of lying about a party - deprives that party of of a reputation that they have earned, substituting for it a reputation that is damaged - a reputation that will be used by others to evaluate their own dealings with that person. (It has already been shown why this use of reputation is a necessity)

So yes, reputation is property, and if your reputation is damaged wrongfully, by fraud, you are deprived of the reputation to which you should be entitled, just as much as if I defraud you in a financial manner and withheld from you money which you should otherwise rightfully possess.

While it is true that you can also cause the reputation harm by telling the truth, if the reputation suffers from the truth, that is because the reputation itself is not deserved, and so you can have no rightful claim to it.

Define the concept force please. You seem to be using it differently than me.

So yes, reputation is property.

Reputation is other people’s opinions of you, right? Do you really own someone’s opinion of you? Are you saying that my opinion of you is your property?

Forget others lying about it, that would mean that I myself couldn’t arbitrarily change my opinion of you, for whatever reason I feel like it, either. After all, you own that part of my consciousness.

something they rightfully possess, something that also need not be *physical* (such as intellectual property)

That is not true. The owner of intellectual property does not own the contents of people’s minds, only the physical instances of his book, recording, musical composition, design feature or invention, etc.

I can in fact have intimate knowledge of how the Iphone was designed. There is nothing illegal about it. It is only illegal to create a physical instance of that design.

The violation of intellectual property, just like fraud, is very much a physical act of force, where one holds on to and uses a physical object that does not belong to him.

I am willing to demonstrate that there is physical force involved in every type of action that I consider a crime, and I would never claim something to be a crime if I couldn’t do that. You still haven’t shown where the physical force is in the act of lying about someone.

Nicky,

I think you’re right: force, coercion, fraud, etc. is the only benchmark for objective law -

whether, or not, there is financial loss involved.

Financial and material loss is not criterion enough, iow, without the presence

of force.

Everything outside this parameter is for rational citizens to settle, amicably,

or through civil suits.

Nicky,

I think you’re right: force, coercion, fraud, etc. is the only benchmark for objective law -

whether, or not, there is financial loss involved.

Financial and material loss is not criterion enough, iow, without the presence

of force.

Everything outside this parameter is for rational citizens to settle, amicably,

or through civil suits.

Civil suits are backed by government force too. Wouldn’t a civil suit (that is won) that is not a reaction to force be initiation of force?

I am willing to demonstrate that there is physical force involved in every type of action that I consider a crime, and I would never claim something to be a crime if I couldn’t do that. You still haven’t shown where the physical force is in the act of lying about someone.

It would depend on the nature of the lie and the damage the lie causes. The example given in the ‘restrictions on speech’ thread, If I remember correctly, was the case of a published report that a dentist has a contagious disease and this report caused him to lose his business. If the report was a lie and the reporter knew it, that would be considered an act of force. The dentist should sue and win his case.

I’m not going to argue with the statement “legally reputation can be considered property”. Anything can be considered anything.

Just give me a straight answer, so I can answer it. Is that the argument you’re making? That I cannot dispose of your reputation in any way, because it is your property?

You asked a question and I answered it. Nothing more.

I’m answering the question as it sits in the world we live in here and now, not some utopia.

So- since 1/3 of the value of my business is good will (good will value of a business varies of course, this is the estimate of mine) yes, I would consider that property. If a competitor willfully and deliberately spread malicious falsehoods about my business with the intent of destroying its value I would have good reason to sue.

That’s interesting to Americans in light of the fact that Justice Ginsburg seems to prefer the SA constitution and says that if she were starting from the beginning she’d prefer it to the ours.

Reidy,

Which should be enough for her impeachment (or whatever you do with Justices).

Not only for her disdain for the US Constitution, but for her ignorance.

When every ‘special interest’ group has rights, then nobody has rights - that’s

what she applauds?

Reidy,

Which should be enough for her impeachment (or whatever you do with Justices).

Not only for her disdain for the US Constitution, but for her ignorance.

When every ‘special interest’ group has rights, then nobody has rights - that’s

what she applauds?

If you were to look over her judicial history you would find that yes, that is exactly what she applaudes.