The War In Iraq (and WMDs)

Political Philosophy
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Nobody here has stated that Israel is the reason for going into Iraq.  If you had looked at the threads and articles which I have now mentioned many–was it 3 or 4?–times, you would know to quit suggusting it.

…“you would know to quit suggusting it.”

I know no such thing. I know you might prefer that I not think and just parrot the party line, but that would mean that I would have to break a long held conviction of mine against being a sheep. I have a mind and I will use it, think you very much. And BTW, it seems to me it is the sheep around here that are suggesting that Israel was the reason for the war by insisting that because Saddam paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers we had to go to war with him. See, the flock are repeating their catechism and I only point out that Israel is not the USA and our interests are not one and the same, no matter how many shills for George Bush or Ariel Sharon come out of the woodwork.

I am deeply disappointed at this forum and it’s members. What I thought would be an educational and interesting exchange has turned into an Orwelian nightmare of thought police for anyone who dares to crimethink- question the official dogmas and lies.

The war on Iraq is the greatest crime of the perhaps a century, and it’s only the beginning. You Zionazi’s seem ready to spend every drop of young American blood and treasure to secure your insane delusion of a greater Israel and world slavery to some sick New World Order. And you would pervert every philosophy and idea in your beligerent and impossible goal of racial supremacy. Well guess what, GET A CLUE!

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Whoa.

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I for one dont appreciate the fact that often people in this forum stand behind objectivism as a defence for making money in any way or form - there is a social side to objectivism, a selfish, but nevertheless social.

As for the post two before this: appropriate member name…

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I am deeply disappointed at this forum and it’s members.  What I thought would be an educational and interesting exchange has turned into an Orwelian nightmare of thought police for anyone who dares to crimethink- question the official dogmas and lies.

The war on Iraq is the greatest crime of the perhaps a century, and it’s only the beginning.  You Zionazi’s seem ready to spend every drop of young American blood and treasure to secure your insane delusion of a greater Israel and world slavery to some sick New World Order.  And you would pervert every philosophy and idea in your beligerent and impossible goal of racial supremacy.  Well guess what, GET A CLUE!

Well so far, we have someone who claims to be a student of objectivism who has said nothing positive in favour of anything but has merely opposed the war in Iraq and condemned israel while spouting standard leftist drivel.

We are now being called Zionazis or Zio-National Socialists while Student ignores the racist jihads declared against the west by Al-Qaeda and their allies.

What is this but standard leftist drivel that we’ve all seen millions of times before?

We are also being accused of being cultists and who hasn’t had that accusation levelled against them as an Objectivist?

Again more left-wing drivel.

And the last part appears to be a recycling of the old capitalist imperialism bit.

This is recycled Marxism and certainly not Objectivism.

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I for one dont appreciate the fact that often people in this forum stand behind objectivism as a defence for making money in any way or form -

Who does this?

And give examples.

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Well so far, we have someone who claims to be a student of objectivism who has said nothing positive in favour of anything but has merely opposed the war in Iraq and condemned israel while spouting standard leftist drivel.

We are now being called Zionazis or Zio-National Socialists while Student ignores the racist jihads declared against the west by Al-Qaeda and their allies.

What is this but standard leftist drivel that we’ve all seen millions of times before?

We are also being accused of being cultists and who hasn’t had that accusation levelled against them as an Objectivist?

Again more left-wing drivel.

And the last part appears to be a recycling of the old capitalist imperialism bit.

This is recycled Marxism and certainly not Objectivism.

Well so far, we have someone who claims to be a student of objectivism who has said nothing positive in favour of anything but has merely opposed the war in Iraq and condemned israel while spouting standard leftist drivel.

Well, I must say that at this point I am shocked that I have not been banned yet for posting opinions that run counter to the party line. Perhaps I was hasty in my rancor. Now, that said, as far as the quote above, I have stated that I agree with most of what Objectivism stands for and consider Ayn Rand to be one of the giants of Western thought. But I didn’t come here to be touchy feely with yes people all agreeing on everything. Boring. I post my opinions where I see the most disagreement, and you might have noticed, as far as the morality of the war on Iraq goes, I’m not at a loss on this thread for that.

We are now being called Zionazis or Zio-National Socialists while Student ignores the racist jihads declared against the west by Al-Qaeda and their allies.

What is this but standard leftist drivel that we’ve all seen millions of times before?

The reasons for Islamic terrorism are due in most part to Israel’s genocidal disregard for basic human rights in Palestine. Perhaps you are unaware of that. I don’t know. The United States of America’s foreign policy is determined by neo-con Israeli firsters. This is the reason for the war on Iraq and the future wars against Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea,(who’s only crime that the neo-cons care about is the potential of selling nuks to one of Israel’s myriad enemies. Israel is not hated because of the Jews that live there, Israel is hated because of what they do; murder and expel Arabs and steel their land. I’m only waiting for someone on this forum to explain to me that God gave the land to the Jews after all. No more American blood or treasure because of the power of AIPAC on our government is all I’m saying. Is that so beyond the pale?

Again more left-wing drivel.

And the last part appears to be a recycling of the old capitalist imperialism bit.

This is recycled Marxism and certainly not Objectivism.

Marxism enslaved Russia, the Ukraine and half of Europe for generations, at least the ones that it didn’t genocide anyways. I’m hardly a Marxist. I’m an American who loves freedom and truth above all else. Objectivism is one of the tools rational people use to achieve both. That is why I posted here.

Although there are many stooges here for the powers that be, I have to confess that my previous post was perhaps unfair. I was warned against straying from the party line and offending some of the posters here, so I was hasty in my criticisms. I expected to be banned and the fact that I’m not means that I was wrong. I stand corrected.

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If you’re banned, it’ll be because you called the participants in this forum Nazis, and not because you “didn’t toe a party line”. (Which phrase, incidentally, is another gratuitous insult.)

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I know no such thing. I know you might prefer that I not think and just parrot the party line, but that would mean that I would have to break a long held conviction of mine against being a sheep.

You are being absurd… I said absolutly nothing even remotely similar to this.

What I said was that nobody Objectivist is arguing that Israel is the justification for going into Iraq. I asked you, many times now, to read up on why we actually claim we should go into Iraq. Either you have not done so, or you are dileberatly putting up a straw-man. Either way, you would do better to stop arguing against Israel as the reason for the war, as no one is going to defend that reason.

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“The reasons for Islamic terrorism are due in most part to Israel’s genocidal disregard for basic human rights in Palestine.”

No it isn’t. It is because the Arab countries of the middle east are dominated by mysticism, irrationalism and death worship. That is why they choose to commit suicide when they bomb. They are also the ones who are genocidal in wanting to drive an entire nation into the sea. And no, they weren’t provoked into it by Israel.

“Perhaps you are unaware of that. I don’t know. The United States of America’s foreign policy is determined by neo-con Israeli firsters.”

I was unaware of that because it isn’t true. Israel is not genocidal.

And where exactly are all these freedom-loving Arabs anyway? They’re certainly well hidden in all the dictatorships surrounding Israel.

" Israel is not hated because of the Jews that live there, "

Yes it is. The Islamists have called for war on the Christians and the Jews worldwide.

"Marxism enslaved Russia, the Ukraine and half of Europe for generations, at least the ones that it didn’t genocide anyways. I’m hardly a Marxist. I’m an American who loves freedom and truth above all else. Objectivism is one of the tools rational people use to achieve both. That is why I posted here. "

For someone who is hardly a Marxist, you are parrotting all the Marxist drivel that the average leftie usually spouts.

Notably, when you have been in favour of anything, it has been brief and vague and then you come straight to the foreign policy section to tell us that Israel is racist and genocidal and that America has provoked terrorism by supporting Israel.

The reality is that the war on terror has been decidely half-hearted because of President Bush’s contradictory premises.

The war was declared on the West by militant Islam a long time ago and it wasn’t provoked by the West except in the sense that it was never taken seriously by anyone until very recently.

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No it isn’t. It is because the Arab countries of the middle east are dominated by mysticism, irrationalism and death worship.

That may be so, but it doesnt help that our dear and beloved GWBush hardly ever rationally justifies himself and constantly pulls religious rhetoric on us. That there’s seldom a speech made by this man without the numbers ‘911’ mentioned might lead one to see an exploitive death worship of his own at work…

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If Bush ignored or glossed over the importance of 9/11, THEN we would really have something to worry about. (Fortunately, he doesn’t; unfortunately, he still gives us plenty of other headaches.)

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student,

I am curious. With all of the claims and counter claims about the situation in the mid-east, how do you decide what to believe? How do you determine what is true and what is false?

Thanks.

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Israel is a racist theocracy.  That is a fact.

:lol:

Is it?

Funny. I live in Israel for 24 years, and I haven’t noticed.

The few laws that ARE religiously oriented (for example - having to close stores on certain Jewish holidays and Saturdays) are under constant attack, and many ignore them anyway.

As for being racist - this is far from exact. Israel was (wrongly, I admit) established as a haven for Jews running away from the holocaust. Therefore - there are laws that make immigration to Israel much easier for Jews than for non-Jews. However, there are millions of Arabs, Muslim and Christians, there are Israelis from African, European, American (north and south) and Asian origin - and they receive equal rights and equal protection under the law.

And the most important thing is that the people, by and large, are not racist, nor religious. Over 70% of Israelis are secular!

It’s amazing how little the average person knows about Israel. I have a Chinese roommate who was shocked to see half naked women on our daily papers. :smiley:

As for lack of regard to “basic Palestinian rights” - this is propaganda perpetrated by the terrorists and their dictator. Israel, even while in a state of war, gave better treatment to Palestinians than they would get in Jordan (where they were butchered at the first sign of rebeliousness) or other Arab countries. Israel goes out of its way to target specific individuals and organizations, because it feels reponsible for the civilian population. Notice the assassination of Yassin, who died with his bodyguards and not a single innocent civillian.

I happen to know many people who participate in these actions, and I hear about the extreme length they go to avoid hurting civillians - to the extent of endangering Israeli lives!

In fact, we treat them too well for our own good.

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I believe Student has been banned for being a troll.

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I believe he’s an angry young man and someone should hug him. :slight_smile:

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Really? I bothered so much for nothing! :slight_smile:

Isn’t there a way to know these things in advance? There should be a notice: Troll.

Really!

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Calling all the supporters of Israel Nazis is usually a good way to get banned.

I complained and he was banned. My summation of his nihilism is above.

The moderators here are more lenient than I am over at Capmag but they’re not that lenient.

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I am often amazed at the level of ignorance at those who do not understand these logical concepts:

  1. the united states has 150,000 all volunteer “citizen soldiers” inside Iraq…who understand who and what we are fighting…who the enemy is. This war is about keep Moslem terrorism over there, and not here…no more 9-11s here…

  2. Saddam Hussein was the center of world-terrorism…and had an al Qaeda terrorism camp just 60 miles north of Baghdad, and intended to being the “pan Arab” Islamic leader of all Moslem terrorism… The bush doctrine of pre-emption was brilliant. Do your own homework regarding this issue. I am not going to do it for you.

  1. Clinton, Kerry, Daschle, Madeline Albright, the un, all said Saddam Hussein had wmds…now where are the “witnesses” that Saddam destroyed them. Use your logic…you cannot have it both ways…that Saddam had wimds when the dems were in charge, but now that bush is in office there were no wmds…so where are the witnesses that Saddam destroyed the wmds…(i do not believe in magic.)

  1. all Moslems read the same Koran, which says in 21 paraphrased places…to "kill, mutilate, destroy, enslave, crucify…all non-Moslems who do not submit to Islam. A world-wide jihad against non-Moslems has been going on for 1400 years…use your logic and figure out that Islam is not a friend to non-Moslems.

  2. Saddam was kept in check by American military all during the 90s, which destroyed a great part of Saddam’s military apparatus in the first gulf war…under the first president bush.

  3. if you have been paying attention to the current military press conferences and briefings, you will note that Iraq is being flooded with insurgents from iran, and other Moslems countries…as well as awash with lethal weapons, all being used against American troops…all bought from the illegal “oil for food” program boondoogle from the corrupt united nations, headed by Kofi Anan and his son.

  4. you will never learn anything as long as you just listen to the democratic party…or the five second sound bites of American tv…and their enforced ignorance. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

  5. it is constant comments like this after one year of being Iraq, and the overwhelming evidence of 9-11…the convinces me, that objectivism cannot be learned…one is either born seeking out objective and logical thought, or one seeks emotion as a way of life.

Deevee…

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SORRY, IT GOT POSTED WITHOUT BEING EDITED

MEA CULPA…DEEVEE

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  1. it is constant comments like this after one year of being Iraq, and the overwhelming evidence of 9-11…the convinces me, that objectivism cannot be learned…one is either born seeking out objective and logical thought, or one seeks emotion as a way of life.

I was agreeing with everything up until this.

People most definitely CAN learn Objectivism and many other true and valuable ideas even if they currently hold goddawful ones now. One case in point is David Horowitz, former communist and author of Radical Son.

I know. I have “converted” many people myself including ex-socialists and ex-theists. I have shown emotionalists why it is to their self-interest to stop and think before they act and how to do it. I have shown rationalists where they broke with reality and how to repair the break.

As we live we can learn more and more about how to think, what is true, what is of value, and how to achieve values. Even someone who is irrational and has turned off his brain and tuned out reality can turn it back on. That’s because people have free will and can choose to think or not anew every minute and second.