What does objectivism have to say about these ideas on taxation?

They are hugely different. Houses and cities should be 100% privatised, the rules come from whoever owns the land.

Ideally, the “City of New york” would be owned by some private entity (let’s call it the “Corporation of New York”) - this entity gets to set the rules.

If you want to buy the city and change the rules, you are free to do so. The corporation can do anything it likes with the city, because it *owns* the city, or at least it has contractual authority over it. Nothing can happen without the consent of the person that owns the property.

When the government passes a law, it is passing the law over property that it absolutely does not own. You have no opportunity to “buy the country” and change the way it is run, because the state doesn’t actually own any of the land you are talking about.

That’s not to say you can do anything you want with your private property. A city couldn’t, for example, decide to amputate the arms of its residents. The state’s role is to ensure that private entities are dealing with each other properly, which means in a manner consistent with individual rights.

This is a REALLY BIZARRE statement. Nobody has ever owned an ENTIRE CITY, cities only EXIST because you have a multiplicity of people all wanting to own property in the same spot. Usually they parcel up the land into teeny tiny little postage-stamp sized squares because ownership competition is so fierce.

Now, if you’re talking about the facilities currently “owned” and operated by the city government (the streets, traffic system, bridges, etc.), then yeah, they should be fully privately owned and operated, but even then probably not just by one corporation. (I’m not saying that if one corporation does decide to buy ALL of it, that corporation should be broken up, I’m saying that the expense and logistics and degree of competition would be prohibitive, so this would be EXTREMELY unlikely.)

Ultimately what will determine property usage is the free market, Adam Smith’s “invisible hand”. Good users who foresee market conditions will prosper, those who can’t will fail and have to sell and move on. Prices for use and methods of payment will gravitate toward the lowest possible profitable level. Increases in productivity will lead to increases in profit, which will lead to an increase of investment in that area and the increased competition will drive prices still lower while spawning a multiplicity of models suitable for everyone.

Most of these sorts of questions and problems (about taxation and so forth) derive from a misunderstanding of how economic planning works. A free market, contrary to what many people believe, is reality-oriented and (ultimately, not always immediately) acts like the most supremely perfected and tuned instrument of economic calculation. Conversely, a centrally “planned” economy, which is *supposed* to be calculated and efficient, always turns out to be chaotic, damaging, and incredibly random in its effects, because an economy is not a bus that you can drive. If you want a metaphor, trying to “steer” or “plan” an economy is like trying to steer a bus made out of thousands of quasi-independent bits each haphazardly moved around by people you can only “control” by prodding them in sensitive spots. The only ultimate certainty is that if you prod enough, the whole thing will collapse.

How does this relate to taxation? The services that are now paid for by taxation ARE VALUABLE. In a free country people WILL pay for them even when they have the choice not to. Maybe not all of them, all of the time, but enough of them because that’s how the metaphorical “calculation machine” works. Heck, even in a semi-free market people produce so much that the vast majority of them voluntarily throw away money on things that demonstrably have only emotional value! And the things that people actually need from the government and can obtain nowhere else are pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

The food system is only free in comparison, not in general. You need government permission to change the label on your product from “prunes” to “dried plums”. It’s illegal to slaughter livestock in a non-government-approved slaughterhouse, and the number of rules they have about what must be present in that slaughterhouse is absurd. The food market is enormously distorted by grain subsidies, which in turn is ruining a lot of people’s health because they can’t tolerate grain but this is the food that is cheap and readily available.

Not to mention that diet and health are closely tied together. What are the big pharmaceutical moneymakers? Not cancer drugs or flu shots. It’s medication for high cholesterol and diabetes–conditions that are caused largely by a diet based on cheap sugar and grains. If you consider high cholesterol a “condition”, for most people it’s totally harmless and low cholesterol will ramp up their likelihood of developing cancer, not to mention the fact that statins have RUINOUS side effects that are worse than the problem they purport to solve.

Absolutely. I use to run a trucking division for a food manufacturer and the regs they have to work under vividly displays the inflation at your grocery store. I remember once they required the company to do a recall on some lima beans because the food coloring was mislabeled on the package (by fault of the labeling company) despite the fact that the actual food coloring used was the right one, the difference between the labeling and the real one was virtually the same, and most egregiously asinine the Department of Agriculture admitted that the company would not get anything back since the food would have been consumed or tossed weeks earlier. They still made through the motions are report “the results”!

I was just comparing the ability to choose grocery stores or products which is still free in comparison to the hyper-regulated healthcare industry (which if you know the food industry is a scary prospect).

My idea of supporting a government is a fee you have to pay in order to vote. If the government isn’t performing the way you want it to pay into it and choose a leader you like.

They are hugely different. Houses and cities should be 100% privatised, the rules come from whoever owns the land.

Ideally, the “City of New york” would be owned by some private entity (let’s call it the “Corporation of New York”) - this entity gets to set the rules.

If you want to buy the city and change the rules, you are free to do so. The corporation can do anything it likes with the city, because it *owns* the city, or at least it has contractual authority over it. Nothing can happen without the consent of the person that owns the property.

When the government passes a law, it is passing the law over property that it absolutely does not own. You have no opportunity to “buy the country” and change the way it is run, because the state doesn’t actually own any of the land you are talking about.

That’s not to say you can do anything you want with your private property. A city couldn’t, for example, decide to amputate the arms of its residents. The state’s role is to ensure that private entities are dealing with each other properly, which means in a manner consistent with individual rights.

I don’t see why a country which has for years been the rulesetter of the land now does not have a right to do so simply because you can’t “buy the land”. I don’t see how that makes sense.

Dragonlady, are you related to Ayn Rand? You look … like her.

How does this relate to taxation? The services that are now paid for by taxation ARE VALUABLE. In a free country people WILL pay for them even when they have the choice not to. Maybe not all of them, all of the time, but enough of them because that’s how the metaphorical “calculation machine” works. Heck, even in a semi-free market people produce so much that the vast majority of them voluntarily throw away money on things that demonstrably have only emotional value! And the things that people actually need from the government and can obtain nowhere else are pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

Dragonlady, while it may be in people’s best interests to pay for these services, things won’t necessarily go that way. Do you know of any times in history where there was an absolutely free society and it went well? Hasn’t there been planned societies that have worked out (at least semi-planned)?

Dragonlady, are you related to Ayn Rand? You look … like her.

Dragonlady, while it may be in people’s best interests to pay for these services, things won’t necessarily go that way. Do you know of any times in history where there was an absolutely free society and it went well? Hasn’t there been planned societies that have worked out (at least semi-planned)?

What’s an example of a planned society that went well? What’s an example of a free society that didn’t?

Dragonlady, are you related to Ayn Rand? You look … like her.

Dragonlady, while it may be in people’s best interests to pay for these services, things won’t necessarily go that way. Do you know of any times in history where there was an absolutely free society and it went well? Hasn’t there been planned societies that have worked out (at least semi-planned)?

Well then the leaders can jolly well act like a leader and try to motivate the people to get involved in their community. By definition, forcing people to do it against their will is the exact opposite of good leadership and a free country. Force is not practical and morality ends where the barrel of a gun begins.

SpiralArchitect, you are still staying in America, voluntarily. You have the option to leave if you want. While you are here and are partaking of the services, I don’t see how it is the proper thing to say that America is not “supposed” to tax you. They are not saying you can’t leave, but you will be using the services which are already in place, and I don’t see how it is proper to NOT contribute. Anyway, alright, done.

Nicky,

I don’t know at the moment, but I have heard that there are semi-socialist countries doing well, in fact very well, in modern day society. I am not sure if this was one which I found or not but isn’t Sweden semi-socialist and doing very well?

SpiralArchitect, you are still staying in America, voluntarily. You have the option to leave if you want. While you are here and are partaking of the services, I don’t see how it is the proper thing to say that America is not “supposed” to tax you.

Equivocation on the word “America”. First you use it to mean "the geographical area between the borders, second to mean “the US government”.

Nicky,

I don’t know at the moment, but I have heard that there are semi-socialist countries doing well, in fact very well, in modern day society. I am not sure if this was one which I found or not but isn’t Sweden semi-socialist and doing very well?

Depends on your standards. If self-sacrifice and ‘other-sacrifice’ are proper to men,

then yes, Denmark and Sweden are “doing well”. For now. Altruist premises there are so deeply

ingrained, that servitude to the State, or entitlement to its cradle-to-grave support,

is assumed as a given. Obedience is the hall-mark of collectivism.

Nicky,

I don’t know at the moment, but I have heard that there are semi-socialist countries doing well, in fact very well, in modern day society. I am not sure if this was one which I found or not but isn’t Sweden semi-socialist and doing very well?

Sweden is semi-planned, much like the US. You initially stated that there have been planned societies which did well, and free societies which failed. That’s what I asked examples on, not semi-socialist countries which are doing well due to their private sector being allowed to operate in relative freedom.

Nicky,

Miscommunication. I didn’t say that there were socialist societies that have worked well… I was asking. This is what I said (asked) specifically:

“Hasn’t there been planned societies that have worked out (at least semi-planned)?”

I am not sure how much more I can really get out of this forum anyway… I think it seems like what has been said so far is all that is going to be said. Unless anyone has anything new to add? As far as I am concerned unless someone provides me with answers, I think to come to something solid in regards to my original question(s) I need to do more research.

Nicky,

Miscommunication. I didn’t say that there were socialist societies that have worked well… I was asking. This is what I said (asked) specifically:

“Hasn’t there been planned societies that have worked out (at least semi-planned)?”

Let’s say I walk up to a person, and ask them “Haven’t you stolen that car you’re driving?”. Wouldn’t you say that’s both a statement and a question? Wouldn’t you say that what I’m really trying to communicate is more “I think you stole this car. True or false?”. How about these last two questions I just asked you, wouldn’t you say they’re also loaded questions?

In fact, all four questions I just asked also communicate a belief I hold. So does your question. I don’t think it’s any misunderstanding, I think that you have some kind of an opinion on the matter, and your questions speak to what that opinion is.

Let’s say I walk up to a person, and ask them “Haven’t you stolen that car you’re driving?”. Wouldn’t you say that’s both a statement and a question? Wouldn’t you say that what I’m really trying to communicate is more “I think you stole this car. True or false?”. How about these last two questions I just asked you, wouldn’t you say they’re also loaded questions?

In fact, all four questions I just asked also communicate a belief I hold. So does your question. I don’t think it’s any misunderstanding, I think that you have some kind of an opinion on the matter, and your questions speak to what that opinion is.

Nicky, it was not a statement. This is offtopic, and this conversation about it is over.