What is the proper way to establish a government?

You would have to somehow convice a country to sell part of its territory and allow it to succede from the country.

Yes, that’s right–so you probably couldn’t do it in the United States, but it might be possible in some third-world country whose government is desperate for a little money. Or perhaps when the English-speaking parts of Canada secede from Quebec and there is a temporary vacuum in authority.

The Falkland Islands could be another opportunity–if the UK had had a Prime Minister who cared less about principles and more about “world opinion” at the time of Galtieri’s invasion, the Falklands might very well have become “independent” from Britain. The idea is to find an area that will be easily given up by its current government.

Israel, Texas, and the thirteen colonies that founded the United States are examples of territories that have become independent in spite of a tyrannical organization’s claim on them. Here, independence involved (or still involves) a good deal of forceful self-defense. This is a less pleasant way of attaining freedom than just buying some land no government cares too much about–but it’s still very much worth it!

The difference between my idea and yours is that I think the ruling group would have to be very small and well known to each other. In your system people could sign the agreement, but then turn around and vote to reduce freedom anyway.

The constitution would not allow voting to reduce freedom. Laws could only be passed on subjects enumerated in the constitution, and the number and length of laws would be limited by the constitution. (“The total number of laws in force at any time shall not exceed 40. Each law shall be written in full English sentences, without using abbreviations, and shall fit on at most three pages, where a page is defined as…”) The consent of a high proportion of the citizens (3/4 or more) would be required to pass each law. The constitution could only be amended by unanimous consent of all citizens.

Burn into your brain the fact that in a free country, there is no such thing as “public property.” No one or thing moves into, through, or out of the country except under the terms of private contractual agreements.

My kind of constitution would be a private contractual agreement.

Yes, that’s right–so you probably couldn’t do it in the United States, but it might be possible in some third-world country whose government is desperate for a little money. Or perhaps when the English-speaking parts of Canada secede from Quebec and there is a temporary vacuum in authority.

The Falkland Islands could be another opportunity–if the UK had had a Prime Minister who cared less about principles and more about “world opinion” at the time of Galtieri’s invasion, the Falklands might very well have become “independent” from Britain. The idea is to find an area that will be easily given up by its current government.

The constitution could only be amended by unanimous consent of all citizens.

Buying part of a 3rd-world country might be the best bet.

Believe me, the Canadian govt would squash any attempt to grab land just as vigorously as the US govt would. There are, however, huge areas of wilderness in northern Canada where you could set up a small town and nobody would know or care what you were doing.

I’m not sure how the Falkland Islands could have become independent. If the UK have not responded they would have become part of Argentina.

If you require unanimous consent to amend the Constitution then you either have to have a very small country or there will never be any amendments. Even “elections” in the USSR and Iraq only got 99% in favor of Stalin and Saddam.

Believe me, the Canadian govt would squash any attempt to grab land just as vigorously as the US govt would.

Nobody’s grabbing any land, we’re just asserting our sovereignty over land we own. Just to set the record straight! :slight_smile:

I’m not sure how the Falkland Islands could have become independent. If the UK have not responded they would have become part of Argentina.

My point was that if there had been another Prime Minister, they would likely have become part of Argentina, because 1) it isn’t considered politically correct for an English-speaking nation to forcibly defend its “colonial” territory from invasion by a “developing” nation; 2) they’re a small, faraway group of islands that most British voters had hardly heard about before the invasion. An unprincipled, poll-oriented PM would not have bothered defending them. I mentioned them as an example for a territory under a government that doesn’t care much about them.

If you require unanimous consent to amend the Constitution then you either have to have a very small country or there will never be any amendments.

Exactly. But, as I’ve been arguing all the time, those very small communities could form defensive alliances, confederations, or unions, agreeing only on those things they can agree on–which will obviously be fewer in number than the stipulations in the constitution of each sub-community. This is what I mean by delegating power from the bottom up in ever-diminishing doses. I don’t think that’s a bad thing; certainly, it beats the alternative of forcing anyone to live under a government they don’t consent to.

Capitalism Forever, the Constitution of a free country is not the same thing as a private contract made under its protection.

In this instance for instance, your Constitution may not regulate travel or immigration, while private contracts may. Your Constitution may not mandate any behavior whatsoever. It may only *prohibit* behavior, and only one kind – initiation of force. A private contract may mandate any form of behavior that does not include the initiation of force.

The point that there will be no public property in a free country was squarely aimed at the practice of discussing how a government should do this or that while couched entirely in the context of contemporary politics. Such discussions are only marginally productive.

Any answer to the question “how should a government do ___, or be___ , or solve___” should be answered in the context of a government that *is* free. It is impossible to identify what a proper government policy should be on immigration, animal rights, air pollution, endangered species, capital punishment and so on without considering certain inherent characteristics of a free country.

When the government owns no land, sea or air, and is prohibited from prosecuting victimless “crimes”, every one of the aforementioned topics requires a very different string of ideas to define it. The greatest difference is that vast segments of what is now regulated by government would pass to the control of private individuals. Economic and social discrimination would become primary regulatory forces.

Therefore, we should name the context of our political debates before we start. Are we talking about how we should struggle to replace a greater evil with a lesser evil today within the context of our present government(s)? Or are we trying to identify what is right? The more we know in the latter context, the less we will need to speculate about the former.

MichaelM, in your view, who would be the author of the constitution, and how would he get everyone else to recognize it? If an alternative constitution were proposed by someone else, how would the choice between the two competing constitutions be made?

Therefore, we should name the context of our political debates before we start. Are we talking about how we should struggle to replace a greater evil with a lesser evil today within the context of our present government(s)? Or are we trying to identify what is right? The more we know in the latter context, the less we will need to speculate about the former.

Throughout this thread, I have had the latter context (identifying what is right) in mind.

MichaelM, in your view, who would be the author of the constitution, and how would he get everyone else to recognize it? If an alternative constitution were proposed by someone else, how would the choice between the two competing constitutions be made?

CF, it is most likely that no new constitutions will be written in the foreseeable future that could be anything more than mangled misinterpretations of existing ones (Iraq). It is also to be expected that progress, if there is to be any, toward an Objectivist style government in this country can only occur through incremental changes in laws, as the population is educated and changes its minds.

So this question needs to be asked in some more remote but still possible context that will reveal the principles that are the subject of your question. For instance, how would a free constitutional government be formed in sparse and scattered populations of men who survived some cataclysmic event, or who were pioneers in the colonization of space? These men could be either absent any viable government or so distant from existing governments that they are literally ungoverned.

In this case, there are no political rights [OPAR p.351], only individual sets of moral rights, according to which men interact. So long as these populations remain scattered and clusters of them remain relatively small, institution of a government would not be possible. If their numbers and contact among them grew to the point that they would begin to establish complex, long-term relationships, serious barriers to progress would arise. Specialization of labor and contracts would entail too much risk without the confidence in future justice that stable laws and consistent third-party enforcement can provide.

At this point, it is time to form a government and write a constitution. Those who recognize the need are motivated only by the desire for orderly socio-economic interactions within their sphere of existence. Each prefers, of course, that the principles enshrined in the Constitution will be 100% consistent with their own moral principles. In that, each is sure to be disappointed.

But the value that division of labor offers to them and the peace of mind that stable law enforcement promises is so huge that many are more than willing to compromise some lesser principles in order to enshrine the most important ones. These men proclaim their agreement with the new Constitution, not because they agree with its contents in general. They support it rather *because of* the principles therein they hold to be right, and *in spite of* the ones they consider wrong. Keep in mind that these judgments must be weighted in a hierarchy of long-range significance to one’s life.

[This is not some unique ethical situation. Except in the rarest of situations – in the presence of absolute perfection – this is the rational framework of all complex judgments. I judge this to be good/bad because of these aspects, and in spite of those.]

Every person who chooses in this manner to abide by the Constitution, both at the time it is written and in the future, both as it was originally written and in any future amended form, is a party to the “social contract” that empowers that government.

In this light, you can see that who actually writes/supports/enforces it has no relevance to its validity. A Constitution is never more or less valid than its principles. Consequently, since constitutions are sets of moral compromises among imperfectly knowledgeable men, it is quite possible to have two different constitutions for two different countries neither of which is measurably “better” than the other.

Control over the forming and sustaining of a constitution always falls to the group-in-agreement that can amass the greatest intellectual and physical capacity. Therefore, a perfect constitution can only be achieved when there are sufficient men within some identifiable segment of the universe who have mastered a rational ethics and politics and accumulated the necessary capacity and will to enforce it there.

All whose “in spite of” list exceeds their “because of” list and who foresee no prospect of improvement in their lifetime must choose among these options depending on their capacities and/or support among others: 1. go to another country, 2. form a different country (secede or go somewhere else) 3. remain but choose actions to minimize victimization, 4. live outside the law and undermine or overthrow the government (revolution).

The legitimacy of a government should be a separate question from its validity. Who has the right to form a government and write a constitution? Any group of men anywhere. But having the right to establish the legitimate government of a region does not bestow upon it any validity. Conversely, when overthrowing a standing statist government to install and enforce a valid constitution, one need not let that government’s legitimacy get in the way.

:wink: Interesting explanation but in my opinion not consistent with Objectivism.

EDIT: Personal attacks deleted by Mod RadCap

Even “elections” in the USSR and Iraq only got 99% in favor of Stalin and Saddam.

Actually, Saddam got 100 percent of the vote in his last re-election. And I don’t mean 99.999% – CNN reported that all 12 million Iraqis went out and voted for him – even the ones in the independent Kurdish region. Who says unanimity isn’t possible?

I can’t remember exactly where I read it, but Ayn Rand believes government should function only to protect individuals from harm. From reading The Virtue of Selfishness, Rand wrote an essay stating any group has the right to overthrow a government when its citizens are treated unjustly or they are being forced to comply with its political system against their will.