Who should we be supporting Israel or the Palestinians

This HAS to be cleared up because this is a largely recurring argument, so I will deal with it specifically:

The Accusation:

Israel started the Six-Day War (i.e. an aggressive action)

The Accusers:

“In 1967 Israel started the Six Day War by launching an air attack on Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza and 1.5 million Arabs, mostly Palestinians, came under Israeli occupation. More than 300,000 Palestinians were forced to flee. Israel is still occupying the territories.” (Eva Bjoreng, secretary general of Norwegian People’s Aid, and Steinar Sorlie, secretary general of Norwegian Refugee Council)

The Reality:

Although Israel fired the first shot against Egypte–although not against Jordon–the war was begun by Egypt’s decision to close the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and to order the removal of U.N. troops from the Sinai.

The Proof:

Although Israel fired the first shots, virtually everyone recognizes that Egypt, Syria, and Jordan started the war. The Illegal Egyptian decision to close the Straits of Tiran by military force was recognized by the international community to be an act of war. As Egyptian president Nasser himself boasted, “We knew the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba meant war with Israel…the objective will be Israel’s destruction.” The Egyptian commander of Sharm al-Shekh, the point of entry to the straits from which the Egyptians warned they would shoot at any Israeli ship that tried to pass through on the way to or from Eilat, acknowledged that “the closing of the straits was a declaration of war.” However, according to Nasser, the war was not to be over the Straits of Tiran but over Israel’s “existence.” Nor was Israel’s surrender contemplated. This, like the 1948 war, was planned to be a war of extermination.

Damascus Radio incited its listeners: “Arab masses, this is your day. Rush to the battlefield…Let them know that we shall hang the last imperialist soldier with the entrails of the last Zionist.” Hafiz al-assad ordered his Syrian soldiers to “strike the enemy’s civilian settlements, turn them into dust, pave the Arab roads with the skulls of Jews. Strike them without mercy.” He characterized the forthcoming attack on Israel as “a battle of annihilation.” The Voices of the Arabs in Cairo exhorted its listeners with similar incitements to see that “Israel is liquidated.” The prime minister of Iraq predicted, “There will be practically no Jewish survivors.” Cairo was filled with anti-Semitic posters “showing Arab soldiers shooting, crushing, mangling, and dismembering beared, hook-nosed Jews.”

Nor was this only rhetoric. Arab armies were massing along Israel’s border poised to strike. Egyptian battle plans included the massacre of the Tel Aviv civilian population. Palestinian plans included the destruction of Israel “and its inhabitants.” Israeli intelligence reported that the invading Egyptian army was equipped with “canisters of poison gas.” The only question was whether the Arab armies would be able to strike the first military blow. As Prime Minister Levi Eshkol told his cabinet on May 21, 1967, “The Egyptians plan to close the straits or to bomb the atomic reactor in Dimona. A general attack will follow. A war could ensue in which the first 5 minutes will be decisive. The question is who will attack the other’s airfields first.” After exhausting all diplomatic options and learning that Egypt was preparing an imminent attack and had flown surveillance flights over Israeli territory, the Israeli air force attacked Egyptian, Syrian, and Iraqi military airfields on the morning of June 5, 1967. Would any reasonable nation faced with comparable threats of annihilation have acted differently?

Israel did not attack Jordan, hoping it would stay out of the war, despite its treaty with Egypt sent several messages to King Hussein promising not to attack Jordan unless it was attacked first. Israel made it clear that it had no designs on the West Bank or even on the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, with its Western Wall, unless it were to be attacked. It was the Arab legion that initiated the hostilities between Jordan and Israel.

Jordan ignored Israel’s repeated peaceful overtures and began shelling Jewish civilian population centers in and around Israel’s major cities and suburbs. Six thousand shells were fired into Jewish residential areas, wounding 1,000 civilians, many of them seriously. 20 civilians were killed and 900 buildings were damaged. Long Tom guns targeted the suburbs of Tel Aviv, and Jordanian planes joined Syrian and Iraqi MIGs in bombing civilian population centers in cities, towns etc. Damascus Radio proudly reported, “The Syrian Air Force has begun to bomb Israeli cities.” It was a repeat of 1948, in which the Arab armies deliberately and unlawfully targeted Israeli civilian population centers, while the Israeli army attacked legitimate military targets.

Despite Jordan’s unprovoked attack against Israeli civilians, the Israeli army did not respond, hoping that Jordan would limit its military actions to a few opening salvos, but after Jordan sent its air force into the sky to bomb the residential neighborhoods of Netanya, Kfar Sirkin, and Kfar Saba, the Israeli air forces finally attacked Jordanian military airfields. The Israeli’s then accepted a cease-fire proposed by the U.N. chief observer, but the Jordanians fought on. Only then did Israel capture the West Bank and the Old City of Jerusalem–plainly in a defensive war against Jordan started by Jordan after Israel made it clear it wanted no military conflict with the Hashemite Kingdom.

The Six-Day War created yet another refugee problem, this one much easier to resolve in the context of a two-state solution. The 200,000 to 250,000 refugees who left Gaza and the West Bank following the Israeli occupation of those areas will surely have a right to return to those areas once a Palestinian state is established. (It will be interesting to see how many actually exercise that right, since the exercise of that right–unlike the claimed right of return to Israel-will have no major political or demographic effect on the Jewish state.) Most of the refugees left on their own accord.

In general, the casualties among civilians “were remarkably low” during the Six-Day War because Israel made sure that most of the fighting “took place far from major population centers”. Indeed, the major civilian casualties were inflicted by Arab mobs on innocent Jewish civilians in Arab cities that were not involved in the fighting. A summary:

“Mobs attacked Jewish neighborhoods in Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Morocco, burning synagogues and assaulting residents. A progrom in Tripoli, Libya, left 18 jews dead and 25 injured; the survivors were herded into detention centers. Of Egypt’s 4,000 Jews, 800 were arrested, including the chief rabbis of both Cairo and Alexandria, and their property sequestered by the government. The ancient communities of Damascus and Baghdad were placed under house arrest, their leaders imprisoned and fined. A total of 7,000 Jews were expelled, many with merely a satchel.”

This refugee problem has never been addressed by the international community. The other civilian casualties, as we have seen, were inflicted on Jewish residents of cities and towns that were targeted by Arab mortar shells. The tiny number of Arab civilian casualties was lower than in any comparable war in modern history–a fact never mentioned by those who accuse Israel of genocide or the indiscriminate killing of civilians. The major impact of the Six-Day War was the occupation itself.

The accusation is that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights following its victory in the Six-Day

War is without any justification.

The reality is that Israel was willing to trade land captured in a defensive war for peace, as it eventually did with the Egyptians and Jordanians, but neither the Palestinians nor the Syrians have been willing to offer peace in exchange for land, as required by Security Council Resolution 242.

Placing force under objective control is the purpose of law and law does apply to aggregates of individuals. But the UN does not rule objectively. If you want to discuss that point, I suggest a new thread

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I am only talking about those international laws that outlaw the initiation of force. These can be said to be moral laws.

This isn’t true. Laws, as we know, can be just or unjust. So the legality of annexation says nothing about the moral status of annexation. UN “law” should be discussed in another thread if you disagree, but for the purposes of this thread I position myself as an opponent of the UN in general.

True, but I am making a moral argument that amounts to Israel’s disregard for laws that outlaw stealing land is immoral. You are seeking to deprive me of ammunition. I doubt very seriously that taking your neighbors property through force can be considered moral whether there is a law against it or not -irregardless of who enforces it.

So, if I disagree with international law as an institution, what am I really saying? The acquisition of land during a war is legitimate only if that war was taken in self-defense. Furthermore, one of two things must be satisfied. The new territory must be better governed by the victorious nation, or the territory must be necessary to the continued self-defense of the victorious nation. Not only did Israel acquire its territory in self-defense (again I’ll re-present my case shortly), but they also deemed the territory to be objectively necessary to their continued safety. We might even argue that they govern much of the new territory better, but that’s a different discussion

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I find it odd that you would say that Israel governs better when it does not have the consent of the governed. For that matter, any dictator could be said to be as legitimate.

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Y

ou made an analogy about home invasion that I don’t particularly like. But if I were to play around with it I would say that you’ve got the homeowner/aggressor relationship mixed up. I’d say that Israel’s house is being invaded by a bunch of hostile neighboring landlords, and if a homeowner gets to defend himself by any means necessary, then Israel has the right to push out their aggressive neighbors and administer their newly acquired apartment complexes. The UN is the corrupt neighborhood association that has no ability to stop the criminal activity of the neighboring landlords and even refuses to recognize it.

Have you forgotten that this “corrupt neighborhood” created your state in the first place? And just how has this this house been invaded? This makes no sense to me

Like I wrote earlier, the Six Day War was an act of self-defense by Israel. Threats are an initiation of force. Physical force can be used in retaliation to an objective threat. Israel’s strike was a response to an objective threat by surrounding nations, and the territory they continue to occupy is necessary for their continued self-defense. Do you disagree with anything in this paragraph and, if so, what part? Try to make your response concise.

Perhaps we should define our terms:

Force-

The use of physical power or violence to compel or restrain

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/force

It seems you are using an exotic definition of force. It means physical violence. Obviously rhetoric is not subsumed under physical violence so therefore what you consider force is not force. So if Israel attacked its neighbors when “violence to compel or restrain” was not used first, then it is the aggressor.

Perhaps we should define our terms:

Force-

The use of physical power or violence to compel or restrain

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/force

It seems you are using an exotic definition of force. It means physical violence. Obviously rhetoric is not subsumed under physical violence so therefore what you consider force is not force. So if Israel attacked its neighbors when “violence to compel or restrain” was not used first, then it is the aggressor.

I’ll address this first, because it exposes a huge misunderstanding of yours. We shouldn’t use the dictionary definition of force. We’re on an Objectivist forum and philosophy requires the use of precise definitions that are not found in common dictionaries. This should explain why threats of violence are force:

http://aynrandlexico…ical_force.html

I am making a moral argument that amounts to Israel’s disregard for laws that outlaw stealing land is immoral.

Annexation is about assuming jurisdiction, not taking property. This is one reason why I hate home-invasion analogies for international conflict. When one nation takes over another, private property is not always lost by everyone in the annexed territory. It is unfortunate that Israel hasn’t protected private property consistently throughout its history, especially with regard to some of the recent settlements. But they protect such property far more consistently than any Palestinian authority. Palestine has been in a state of de-facto anarchy for a long time.

Have you forgotten that this “corrupt neighborhood” created your state in the first place? And just how has this this house been invaded? This makes no sense to me

I told you I thought it was a bad analogy. I never invoked UN law for justification of Israel’s creation. The Jews in Israel declared Israeli statehood, that they did so in accordance with UN decree is immaterial. Israel was swiftly invaded by surrounding Arab nations in the war of '48.

I would be very interested in learning about mass killings against Israel, from my research, the ratio is about 100:1.

Then you seem to be ignorant of the explicitly stated goals of the Arab states and guerillas fighters in addition to their actions.

I submit to you that land expropriation,colonialism, political assassinations,control of commerce represent a threat against one’s life and should be met with the maximum force possible to resist and deter it. We are not talking about stealing a piece of gum.

Of course we are not talking about a piece of gum, we are talking about abstract principles. Think about the essences of the situations, not about the concretes like “gum.” You don’t have a right to commit indiscriminate slaughter because you are under the impression that Israel stole your land and is engaging in colonialism.

Then you have misunderstood. If Israel has sovereignty over land WITHIN the partition plan then it is a contradiction to say it also has sovereignty over land outside it.

Not at all. A contradiction is an incompatibility between to propositions. To say that Israel has “sovereignty” within the partition plan does not exclude it also having a moral right to take actions outside of this partition. Think more about the statement “two individuals cannot be the exclusive owner of one and the same plot of property at the same time” denotes a situation involving the impossibility of a contradiction, but the statement “Israel’s moral authority to act extends beyond this partition” does not.

Also, “Israel” does not validly own any land. You are still thinking collectively or making a personification about “Israel’s land” verses “the Palestinian’s land.” Only individuals in this area have a valid moral right to own land, and Israel is the only valid government which was formed by those individuals who had a moral right to the land they justly acquired and is the most relatively moral government in this area to assume jurisdiction and the alternative would mean destruction of a part of Western civilization in this inhuman part of the world. Also related, if Israel is overrun by Jihadists, we in America are less secure, making it a proper personal moral choice to support Israel.

The “sovereignty” of this group or that group is invalid. The land does not belong to the Arabs, for all the reasons already mentioned and again, whatever land that may legitimately belong to people outside of Israel’s borders, the Arabs have no right to establish a government there, given the kind of government they intend to establish. We are going around in circles here, so unless you offer something new other than “all land outside of Israel automatically belongs to Arabs so they stole it” then I will consider the point impassable and move on.

If individual rights are your benchmark then why is Israel more legitimate?

Again, refer to the posts made previously in this thread which explain, given individual rights as our political standard, that objectively Israel must be more legitimate and the Arabs totally illegitimate. The Israeli government is far more respective of individual rights than any Arab government on the planet, and would be far more in line with that standard than any proposed Palestinian state.

Is there not institutional racism in Israel? Does it not grant the right of return to Jews but not to Palestinians who have lived there all their lives? Isn’t it a socialist state too?

Again, refer back to posts # 20, 14, 12, 11, and 2, and importantly number 20 and 11. Nobody is denying Israel is a socialistic state which violates rights. However, America has no obligation to protect the rights of people in Israel. A government which violates rights is not automatically indistinguishable from a dictatorship.

What does non-western even have to do with it?

Just about everything. See post # 11.

There is no such thing as the right to enslave, morality ends where the gun begins.

I agree, so if country X is faced with slavery and annihilation at the hands of barbarians, it has a right to invade, occupy, and annex the land these people inhabit to keep that from happening. You would agree, no? That response really accomplishes nothing since you have not established why anyone would have a right to act on the demand that Israel cease to exist or face violence.

How odd…the UN had the right to CREATE, i.e. take land against the wishes of the indigenous population and create Israel AND define its borders but it cannot tell Israel that it cannot steal land outside its borders? Really? Then you have just made the case yourself that Israel is illegitimate.

Please proceed to point out where I ever made the case that Israel’s legitimacy is derived from a decree of the United Nations. If someone else made that case, they’re wrong.

And additionally, the indigenous population did not have a right to the land, as already mentioned for the fourth time now.

Oh, but I agree but does this apply to Israel as well? It is specifically the outlawing of the initiation of violence that I am speaking of but you seem to be suggesting that laws against occupation, disproportionality, pirating in international waters , etc…should have “no relevance to us and is not a frame of reference”

No, because as already explained these are legitimate acts of retaliatory force, therefore no international body has a moral right to stop them.

If international law should outlaw violence then how do you advocate stealing someone elses property?

Now I was thinking you were open to exchanging ideas over this topic and here you post something very dishonest. There is a disagreement over who has just title to property in this region, so to ask me “how I advocate stealing” is just plain dishonest.

Why is it that all actions of the UN are immoral except the one that created Israel?

I don’t know, go ask someone that thinks that. I don’t.

It seems you are using an exotic definition of force. It means physical violence. Obviously rhetoric is not subsumed under physical violence so therefore what you consider force is not force.

False. Communicating a threat is an initiation of force. The word “initiation” is absolutely key to understanding the non-initiation of force principle. You are not obligated to wait until the physical force is actualized. Force and threats of force, including demonstrated aggressiveness, justify defensive measures, including, sometimes, preemptive strikes. [HT to Grames on that one.]

Anyways, I think your position here has been made clear.

I’ll address this first, because it exposes a huge misunderstanding of yours. We shouldn’t use the dictionary definition of force. We’re on an Objectivist forum and philosophy requires the use of precise definitions that are not found in common dictionaries. This should explain why threats of violence are force:

http://aynrandlexico…ical_force.html

I am familiar with the lexicon and I am surprised you would mention it. Still it does not negate what force actually is , it only strengthens my argument. For instance:

“Man’s rights can be violated only by the use of physical force. It is only by means of physical forc e that one man can deprive another of his life, or enslave him, or rob him, or prevent him from pursuing his own goals, or compel him to act against his own rational judgment.The precondition of a civilized society is the barring of physical force from social relationships—thus establishing the principle that if men wish to deal with one another, they may do so only by means of reason: by discussion, persuasion and voluntary, uncoerced agreement”

“One does not and cannot “negotiate” with brutality , nor give it the benefit of the doubt. The moral absolute should be: if and when, in any dispute, one side initiates the use of physical force , that side is wrong—and no consideration or discussion of the issues is necessary or appropriate.”

"Whatever may be open to disagreement, there is one act of evil that may not, the act that no man may commit against others and no man may sanction or forgive. So long as men desire to live together, no man may initiate—do you hear me? no man may start—the use of physical force against others"

Based on the dictionary definition and the “precise definitions” you require then it should obvious that rhetoric is not physical force or violence.

Annexation is about assuming jurisdiction, not taking property. This is one reason why I hate home-invasion analogies for international conflict. When one nation takes over another, private property is not always lost by everyone in the annexed territory. It is unfortunate that Israel hasn’t protected private property consistently throughout its history, especially with regard to some of the recent settlements. But they protect such property far more consistently than any Palestinian authority. Palestine has been in a state of de-facto anarchy for a long time.

Are you actually defending taking property and keeping it by force? Seriously? It is immoral, unequivocally immoral PERIOD! If it is not done through treaty or purchase , or any other form of consent then it is wrong. A nation is just a group of individuals , so it can gain no additional rights such as the right to usurp the present owner and you are correct, it is not taking property -it is seizing TERRITORY.

I told you I thought it was a bad analogy. I never invoked UN law for justification of Israel’s creation. The Jews in Israel declared Israeli statehood, that they did so in accordance with UN decree is immaterial. Israel was swiftly invaded by surrounding Arab nations in the war of '48

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Let’s be serious, we are not talking about UN law, we are talking about whether a nation has the right to initiate force against other nations. I am attempting to establish that Israel is the aggressor according to moral law. I am suggesting that international law(in some cases) is moral and I am frankly in awe of the venom against the UN when it basically carved up Palestine to make a homeland for Jews-against the collective will of the Palestinians. This act alone is immoral according to Objectivist standards as Jews do not have the right to set up a theocratic socialist state. So please let’s dispense with the rants against the UN, we are talking about international laws that prohibit aggression. We both already agreed these were moral laws-correct? I am simply trying to establish who the aggressor is in this context. Once we do that then the rest is easy.

As for the war of 48, well …you simply do not know what you are talking about when you say they were “swiftly invaded”. I am choosing my words carefully- They were not invaded by the Arab League, it was the Arabs who fought a defensive war against an Israeli land grab. But I digress but I will revisit this later if you like but let’s take one thing at a time.

Now since the dictionary agrees that force is physical violence and the lexicon with its “precision” agrees then can we agree that a threat is not physical violence, so therefore if an aggressor(Israel) attacks its neighbors when physical violence has not been initiated then it is the aggressor?

If not, why not?

If not, why not?

Man’s rights can be violated only by the use of physical force. A threat to use force is initiating, starting, beginning, the process of using physical force. A threat of physical destruction is a violation of man’s rights.

Man’s rights can be violated only by the use of physical force. A threat to use force is initiating, starting, beginning, the process of using physical force. A threat of physical destruction is a violation of man’s rights.

To say that the threat of force is grounds for initiating actual force is to obliterate the non-initiation of force principle. According to your logic, then it really doesn’t have to be a communicated threat. One may simply purchase a gun for his personal defense and become a valid candidate for destruction. A threat is a subjective evaluation about someone’s intentions and since no one is omnipotent, there is simply no way to determine the contents of someone elses mind.This isn’t a moral principle to protect one’s life this is a cover to take someone elses. Any person in possession of a weapon coud be considered a threat-what then? Furthermore, now the principle is so muddled as to be non- existent. According to this expanded meaning then any ME state with the means has the moral right to destroy Israel as it has undeclared nuclear weapons or any state has the right to destroy any state by claiming omnipotence about the future.

Where do you draw the line? When is it valid? …there is no way to tell which is probably the intention of whoever thought of this cover for aggression.

The stated goals of the Likud is control of all of Palestine are they candidates for destruction too? It is my opinion that these fighters are fighting a moral war of self defense.

Of course we are not talking about a piece of gum, we are talking about abstract principles. Think about the essences of the situations, not about the concretes like “gum.” You don’t have a right to commit indiscriminate slaughter because you are under the impression that Israel stole your land and is engaging in colonialism

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Israel was granted 51% of Palestine but now controls ALL of it. I would say this is more than an impression.

Not at all. A contradiction is an incompatibility between to propositions. To say that Israel has “sovereignty” within the partition plan does not exclude it also having a moral right to take actions outside of this partition. Think more about the statement “two individuals cannot be the exclusive owner of one and the same plot of property at the same time” denotes a situation involving the impossibility of a contradiction, but the statement “Israel’s moral authority to act extends beyond this partition” does not.

Look this is simple. If Israel is inside the borders of the PP then it cannot also be outside of it. This means that to say that Israel has a right to land outside its borders contradicts the principle of sovereignty as it cannot have rights to ALL of Palestine when its borders are clearly defined. It is to say that what is not Israel is not Israel’s.

Also, “Israel” does not validly own any land. You are still thinking collectively or making a personification about “Israel’s land” verses “the Palestinian’s land.” Only individuals in this area have a valid moral right to own land, and Israel is the only valid government which was formed by those individuals who had a moral right to the land they justly acquired and is the most relatively moral government in this area to assume jurisdiction and the alternative would mean destruction of a part of Western civilization in this inhuman part of the world. Also related, if Israel is overrun by Jihadists, we in America are less secure, making it a proper personal moral choice to support Israel

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Okay, Israel has jurisdiction over this territory. It is a completely subjective evaluation that a theocratic socialist country is objectively better than a theocratic fascist one so there is no “justly acquired land”.As for the destruction of the Western world…pure speculation-unless you claim some special knowledge about the future.

The “sovereignty” of this group or that group is invalid. The land does not belong to the Arabs, for all the reasons already mentioned and again, whatever land that may legitimately belong to people outside of Israel’s borders, the Arabs have no right to establish a government there, given the kind of government they intend to establish. We are going around in circles here, so unless you offer something new other than “all land outside of Israel automatically belongs to Arabs so they stole it” then I will consider the point impassable and move on.

Please explain how a theocratic socialist country has more legitimacy than a theocratic fascist one. Second, you have no idea of what kind of government the Palestinians will create, once again you are claiming omnipotence.

I am only talking about those international laws that outlaw the initiation of force. These can be said to be moral laws.

In the context, what you mean by moral is also practical (i.e. they should be recognized and followed, considered as legitimate). Why? Remember we are speaking of international law. You are arguing from Libertarian positions not Objectivist ones. The source of the authority is something that cannot be obliterated, it is not simply about what the law says. It also matters who is making those laws.

As for the war of 48, well …you simply do not know what you are talking about when you say they were “swiftly invaded”. I am choosing my words carefully- They were not invaded by the Arab League, it was the Arabs who fought a defensive war against an Israeli land grab. But I digress but I will revisit this later if you like but let’s take one thing at a time.

The OP wishes for us to identify Israel’s actions as aggressive and insensibly initiatory and therefore immoral by the standards of Objectivist philosophy. As it is the actual source and cause for the initial aggression on which his argument rests on I will critique his claim:

Claim: The Jews started the first war with the Arabs.

Critique:

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would “fight for every inch of their country.” Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad against the Jews. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee’s spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench “the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood…”

Husseini’s prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN adopted the partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approx. 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back. In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947, until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan’s King Abdullah said:

“All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.”

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After 2 days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered. This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel’s declaration of independence.

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission, which was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution, reported to the Security Council on February 16, 1948, that powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

“The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.”

The British commander of Jordan’s Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:

“Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria . Some came through Jordan and even through Amman…They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.”

Despite the disadvantages in numbers, organization and weapons, the Jews began to take the initiative in the weeks from April 1 until the declaration of independence on May 14. The Haganah captured several major towns including Tiberias and Haifa, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem.

The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, war born May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

You raise some interesting points but it is a propagandistic version of events, in my opinion. I will respond to them but it does not seem appropriate yet as I am trying to prove my claim that Israel is the aggressor.I don’t think it controversial to say that Israel attacked first but it is now being suggested that rhetoric is equivalent to dropping a bomb. To begin discussing history at this point will only muddle the issue and it will deteriorate into your version against mine.

I will respond to them but it does not seem appropriate yet as I am trying to prove my claim that Israel is the aggressor.

Ah, but you must necessarily appeal to historical events, as I have done, to prove any such thing.

You raise some interesting points but it is a propagandistic version of events, in my opinion.

You can call it propagandistic if you want. All I need to know is that all of the events contained in my argument are well documented, and the timeline of events here and the intention regarding initiating these events is clear. While your arguments have had very little in the way of sources provided for them, which is a special concern in this case because you have a habit of making extreme statements regarding every element of this conflict re: atrocities, fault, deniability. Further, the statements that bolster my argument are not made by people within the Jewish/Israeli community, but by Palestinians, other discontented Arabs, and to quite an extent, the U.N. during public discussions. I would like to see what alternative historical knowledge you have that, even if presented, would refute the fact that these statements were made, etc.

You raise some interesting points but it is a propagandistic version of events, in my opinion. I will respond to them but it does not seem appropriate yet as I am trying to prove my claim that Israel is the aggressor.I don’t think it controversial to say that Israel attacked first but it is now being suggested that rhetoric is equivalent to dropping a bomb. To begin discussing history at this point will only muddle the issue and it will deteriorate into your version against mine.

You deciding to focus on everyone else’s statements first is of no issue actually. I am done participating in this thread any further unless things change course as to what kind of arguments are considered satisfactory and legitimate.

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Nope, try again. Of course a bomb is not the same thing as a verbal threat, however, only inasmuch as they are different stages of the same process. A threat of physical violence is the beginning of the process of the initiation of violent force.

If I say “give me your wallet or I’ll stab you” I can’t legitimately claim “oh but officer, I didn’t actually make physical contact with him, it was just rhetoric.” You don’t have to wait for the knife to be plunged into your body to act defensively. If I have used the intimidation or threat of invasion of your body to obtain your wallet, then this is morally equivalent the invasion itself because I have interposed the threat of physical destruction between your mind and reality, you cannot act on the basis of reason. Defensive action therefore may be legitimately used against the threatened invasion of a person’s body or property if the right to life is to have any meaning whatsoever. If a man has the right to live, we mean he may not be legitimately threatened with physical violence. You do not, and indeed it would be utterly foolish to wait for the physical force to be actualized to act.

You are mistaking individual rights with some kind of quasi-pacifism. Sorry, if your final answer is “Oh but it was just rhetoric! They didn’t really mean it!” then consider this my last post with you on this topic. It seems I overestimated your argument and your intellectual sincerity.

Are you actually defending taking property and keeping it by force? Seriously? It is immoral, unequivocally immoral PERIOD! […]it is not taking property -it is seizing TERRITORY.

No, I wasn’t defending the taking of property. I think you’re still confused about my position. Jurisdictional control is about which body administers laws in a given area. Private property is about who gets to use/dispose of property. I advocated the expansion of Israeli jurisdiction because the surrounding nations governed unjustly (or didn’t govern at all). I think property rights are better defended by Israel’s western-style system. I’ll condemn Israel for each failure to uphold property rights over the territories it has taken. But I don’t see any surrounding nation protecting property, life, or the pursuit of happiness in a way that even approaches Israel’s. Especially the Palestinian territories, which I have previously likened to anarchy.

In addition to jurisdictional expansion, there is jurisdictional creation. This is what happened when Israel was born. You seem to think that such a creation is moral only when a completely, unequivocally just government is created. Such a government has never existed, so it seems to me that you are holding Israel to a higher standard than every other nation. I propose that the Israeli government was an improvement to what existed prior and better than any other realistic alternative. For that reason, I am happy it was created and I support its continued existence.

I am familiar with the lexicon and I am surprised you would mention it. Still it does not negate what force actually is , it only strengthens my argument. For instance:

[…]

on the dictionary definition and the “precise definitions” you require then it should obvious that rhetoric is not physical force or violence.

This is a point you are going to have to concede if we are going to continue. Force presents a special evil because it disrupts the human mind’s capacity to reason. Rhetoric alone is not force. But threatening rhetoric combined with threatening troop movements combined with a previous history of violence are enough to present an emergency, disrupting the ability to reason. Do you think a man can reason when a thug with a history of violence gets his friends to surround you and tells you he’s going to kill you? Will you wait to defend yourself until he points his gun at you? Until he fires?

Here is a summary of things I think we need to agree on before we continue:

-Jurisdiction and property are different, and jurisdictional usurpation does not necessarily mean property exchanges.

-The right government is the one best suited to protect the rights of those it governs. We can address later which is best, UN, Israel, P.A., etc.

-Force is not reduced to mere physical action. A credible threat initiates force.

Here’s one question I forgot to address:

So please let’s dispense with the rants against the UN, we are talking about international laws that prohibit aggression. We both already agreed these were moral laws-correct?

No, we haven’t. You haven’t established that UN law actually prevents the initiation of force. Most of UN law is put into place to protect the status quo. In many places the status quo is a statism. Laws banning defensive actions against statists do not prohibit aggression nor are they moral. Such laws enshrine aggression. I’ve not yet begun to rant.

This argument really should wait until we have agreed on the second bullet point at the end of my last post, but it wouldn’t have been fair of me to let you assume I agreed with your statement.

I am and always was a supporter of Israel, but also a harsh critic of her. I hold her to the highest standards, and am dismayed at any errors she commits.

I particularly am against the power that the religious Jewish extremists wield there - it is imperative to keep separation of “church” and State, anywhere, for that matter - and am very glad when those extremists are forcibly removed from settlements.

I am, iow, no knee-jerk apologist for Israel.

However, one thing emerges every time one enters a debate with nice, reasonable people who only want to tell you that the poor Palestinians are being treated unjustly:

They infrequently apply double standards.

They hold Israel to one set, and Hamas/ PLO to another.

It is a bit of a reverse compliment, in a way; what they’re really saying is “we know Israel is better, but why don’t they treat their neighbours nicely - the poor Palestinians can’t think for themselves, or hold any morality.”

This is condemning the better, for being the better.

That’s why I consider this debate as futile.

‘Facts’ are raised - apartheid, starvation, land grabs - which are at best disingenuous, at worst, lies.

‘Principles’ are invoked, on the basis of these false premises.

The principle involved goes beyond International Law, or IOF, or any libertarian principles. It’s the principle of altruism that applies here.

When, and if, Hamas is overthrown by Gazan citizens, who commit themselves to lasting peace, Israel will respond with good-will; that is certain.

Israel is being held to hostage by its superior morality, and desperately wants peace. Not at all long- term costs, though.

But the Palestinians will, for once, have to begin thinking rationally, and SELFISHLY, for that peace to result.

As long as Hamas holds in its Charter the destruction of Israel, Israel will rightly treat it as the enemy.

A nation has to demonstrate self-respect, before it can be treated with respect.

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I am and always was a supporter of Israel, but also a harsh critic of her. I hold her to the highest standards, and am dismayed at any errors she commits.

I particularly am against the power that the religious Jewish extremists wield there - it is imperative to keep separation of “church” and State, anywhere, for that matter - and am very glad when those extremists are forcibly removed from settlements.

I am, iow, no knee-jerk apologist for Israel.

However, one thing emerges every time one enters a debate with nice, reasonable people who only want to tell you that the poor Palestinians are being treated unjustly:

They infrequently apply double standards.

They hold Israel to one set, and Hamas/ PLO to another.

It is a bit of a reverse compliment, in a way; what they’re really saying is “we know Israel is better, but why don’t they treat their neighbours nicely - the poor Palestinians can’t think for themselves, or hold any morality.”

This is condemning the better, for being the better.

That’s why I consider this debate as futile.

‘Facts’ are raised - apartheid, starvation, land grabs - which are at best disingenuous, at worst, lies.

‘Principles’ are invoked, on the basis of these false premises.

The principle involved goes beyond International Law, or IOF, or any libertarian principles. It’s the principle of altruism that applies here.

When, and if, Hamas is overthrown by Gazan citizens, who commit themselves to lasting peace, Israel will respond with good-will; that is certain.

Israel is being held to hostage by its superior morality, and desperately wants peace. Not at all long- term costs, though.

But the Palestinians will, for once, have to begin thinking rationally, and SELFISHLY, for that peace to result.

As long as Hamas holds in its Charter the destruction of Israel, Israel will rightly treat it as the enemy.

A nation has to demonstrate self-respect, before it can be treated with respect.

:thumbsup:

You raise some interesting points but it is a propagandistic version of events, in my opinion. I will respond to them but it does not seem appropriate yet as I am trying to prove my claim that Israel is the aggressor.I don’t think it controversial to say that Israel attacked first but it is now being suggested that rhetoric is equivalent to dropping a bomb. To begin discussing history at this point will only muddle the issue and it will deteriorate into your version against mine.

The Israelis didn’t bombed the Egyptian airforce because of rhetoric - the Egyptian army was massed on the border.