Why be pro-American Foreign Policy?

  The more important point, though, is that the vast majority of Indians removed had committed no moral or legal infractions yet were subjected to legalized kidnapping and murder for the “crime” of being of the wrong blood. 

Since the Removal Act stipulated only voluntary relocations, these kidnappings and murders were not legalized, unless there is some other law that authorized them.

What problems? The only “problem” posed by the Cherokee is that he occupied land that politicians, speculators and developers wanted without having to acquire in a free market exchange.

The problem was the Indian position that since they had wandered around the state of Georgia (and elsewhere), they owned it and had the right to kill any white man that came on their land without permission.

It wasn’t voluntary.  It was enforced at the points of guns and bayonets. From the journal of Private John G. Burnett: “I saw the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes, and driven at bayonet point into stockades. And in the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep into six hundred and forty-five wagons and started toward the west.” http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_…val/burnett.cfm

I think this presents only one side of the story. How many of these “helpless Cherokees” had previously participated in the murder of whites? How many had given aid and comfort to those Indians that were effectively America’s first terrorists? How many had killed white hunters caught on Indian land?

When you judge the actions of others, you must judge them in context. For instance, Lincoln, the “great emancipator”, was in fact an avowed racist. He stated explicitly that blacks were inherently inferior and he favored deporting every black man, woman and child to Africa or to Central America. As president, he worked toward that goal. But to judge him, we must bear in mind what was known about blacks back then, not from the perspective of what we know today. Thus, I would not condemn Lincoln morally for his racism – I would say he was mistaken, not evil, whereas any such attitude today is evil.

(Slavery, however, was evil. Even if there were reason to believe, as Lincoln did, that blacks were intellectually inferior and incapable of existing with the white man, there was no reason to believe them to be rightless creatures.)

Similarly, we must judge the white man’s actions toward the Indian in the context of what was known then, not now.

When I came through the education system 35 years ago, I was taught that the Indian problem was a complex situation aggravated by atrocities commited by both sides – and that both sides broke numerous treaties and agreements. The Indians – including the Cherokees – had one non-negotiable demand: they wanted a large terroritory reserved exclusively for Indians with the white man forbidden. The settlers had a conflicting demand: the right to settle on otherwise vacant land.

The Removal Act was an attempt to reconcile those demands. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it evil? I don’t think so, not viewed in the context of what was known then.

The notion that “the only good Indian is a dead Indian” seems outrageous to us now, but like Lincoln’s plan for universal black deportation, it may not have been an unreasonable notion given what was known at the time.

Agreed, those claims may not have been entirely legitimate.  But the Indian Removal Act essentially nullified all Cherokee property, including all lands that had been tilled, all livestock that had been raised, all homes and villages that had been built.  You don’t respond to someone’s unjustified claim by legally canceling every property title that person holds!

I agree. However, as near as I can tell, the Removal Act itself did not nullify anyone’s property rights.

I’d like to point out that all this discussions concerning past atrocities committed by the US government is totally irrelevant to the war on terror and does not in any way make this war less moral or even immoral on the same level as the terrorists who seek to destroy us.  No individual (and therefore no group of individuals) is morally responsible for the actions of his ancestors; likewise, the current Administration is not morally culpable for Jackson’s forced relocation of the Indians, Roosevelt’s internment of the Japanese, or any other Administration’s purportedly immoral actions.  Americans have every moral right–and bear no moral culpability for the atrocities of their ancestors–to eradicate the terrorists and their supporting regimes, all the while standing on the moral high ground because theirs is the moral cause, the cause for individual rights.


Even the West German government would have had the moral right to wage a war of self-defense against Soviet Russia despite the fact that its predecessor was Nazi Germany.

I agree completely. And I can’t think of a better example than the situation of the West German government vis-à-vis the Soviet Union.

In fact, the Indian Removal Act of 1830 under President Andrew Jackson had nothing to do with preventing “vicious attacks on settlements.”  The Cherokee Nation had long been recognized as one of the most progressive among American Indian tribes.  The 17,000 Cherokees who were subject to Jackson’s forcible exile had been living not as hunter-gatherers but as farmers and tradesmen.  They resided peacefully alongside whites and often intermarried with them.  The “Trail of Tears” was the result not of self-defense but of government-sponsored racism and a desire for the undeserved.  The State of Georgia’s attempt to cancel Indian land titles was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled against the state and in favor of Indian land owners in Worcester vs. Georgia, 1832.  President Jackson ignored the court and proceeded with the ethnic cleansing, which left approximately 4,000 dead from hunger and exposure.  So much for the rule of law.

I have a question, what gives the Indian tribes the moral right to operate an entirely collectivist society within American territory–that encouraged the banishment or killing of those who didn’t share their property in the collective?

If you’ve heard Thomas Bowden’s “The Enemy’s of Christopher Columbus,” he mentions that all of the Indian tribes had the chance to be sent by riverboat for their relocation Westward (which was mandatory to do because they were operating a society contrary to American government). Since they believed in a primitive superstition that travelling over water would steal their souls, they chose to walk, and therefore died in the thousands. Those who travelled in boats arrived with very few problems.

Many people on this board are Pro-Iraq War and for increased intervention in the Middle East. I have read several comments like “Lets go take down Iran” or “We should take out Saudi Arabia” or “I wish Syria was on target next.”

With this in mind I have two questions:

  1. What makes you think that U.S intervention would make things better?

Ask someone SPECIFICALLY WHY any “intervention” (whatever that means) would

be of value to them.

My opinion,.. surgically removing the cancer of collectivist evil from the world

when it can affect proper human trade (“the trader principle”) is always a good

thing. Those who can do it, when a high enough “pain threshold” is reached for

them to be motivated TO do it, should morally do it.

If America can do it, and values doing it, then America WILL do it, regardless of

the collectivist protest of “What makes YOU so special..!?”

  1. Why is it that Objectivists routinely uphold that American foreign policy is morally superior to Muslim terrorists?

“American Foreign Policy” is not a thing that the phrase "morally superior or

inferior" can be applied to. Any more than the phrase “Earthbound Brown Guys”

can have a moral quality.

That is the collectivist principle of “primacy of consciousness” applied to make a

collection of things appear to be a single thing, so that it can be attacked (or

promoted). Just because you say it’s so doesn’t mean that reality will change to

suit your wish.

Some acts of individual and/or groups of Americans can certainly be immoral.

ALL acts of “Muslim Terrorists” (since they are defined here AS terrorists,

where “a terrorist” is inherently evil) are immoral.

Acts are commited by individuals. Those who commit immoral acts, regardless of

their “political affiliation”, are immoral.

The reasons for my questions are as follows:

Rreasons for question 1:

Vietnam. Our intervention there killed lots and lots of people…

More importantly, we are currently unable to prevent terrorists from entering via the Iraq-Syria border. We are also unable to protect Iraqi politicians and civilians from the terrorists…

Reasons for question 2:

If one is claiming to be morally superior to brutal rapists, you can’t support rapists with money and weapons can you?..

We claim to be superior to Muslim terrorists…but why isn’t anyone pointing out the obvious fact that many of our actions support terrorism in 2 ways:

a) Actual funding, training, and weapons selling…

B- It seems to me that several actions of the United States could actually be equated with terrorist actions. (Gee whiz)…

You should probably have asked:

  • “Is killing lots of people inherently immoral?”

  • “If you can’t guarantee even relative safety for civilians in a country you’ve invaded, is it moral to have invaded in the first place?”

  • “Is it moral to materially support a “bad guy” whom you can convince to control an even BADDER guy?”

  • “What IS a terrorist act, and is there ever a moral reason to commit one?”

These would be more likely to illicit actually useful answers.

My last question of the day is quite simple : If Objectivists recognize that the American government is a mixed bag (philosophically speaking) with often mixed results (both good and bad) then why the blatant jingoism and pro-America drum beating? Is it any real surprise that such mixed bag philosophies are applied with often poor results?

So you would propose a “non-mixed bag”, such as collectivist tyrany?

America is not a “mixed bag”. It is a market (or at least more so than other

places), and collectivists value the processes, goals, and results of markets.

What do you mean by, "Is it any real surprise that such mixed bag philosophies

are applied with often poor results?"

You are confusing the “productive chaos” of the market with “the bad results” that

you have selected from the results of all the multitude of acts that constitutes the

market that America is composed of.

You look at America and see some bad results from some possibly immoral acts,

and conflate that to be “American Foreign Policy” (or more likely "American

Culture", which is the typical REAL meaning of collectivists when they say

American Foreign Policy).

A rational person sees the market of America, and strives to strengthen the

market however possible to ensure that the natural product of the market, human

production and lessening of evil (ie reality), is maximized.

A collectivist sees the market of America, and condemns the market as crushing

the human right to get an equal share regardless of contribution.

“Why are YOU so special?” is your basic comment about America.

I suggest you find the many many answers to that question.

-Iakeo

As I’m supposed to limit what I say to increasing the intellectual content of the

topic in question, I’m rather limited how to respond to this leftist screed.

My contribution to the intellectual content is this:

What are you trying to clarify?

Give it to me in one sentence. If you then want to expand that sentence into a

paragraph or two, to illustrate your points, that would be fine.

But this regurgitation of whatever-that-was is not helpful.

Thanks chief..! :frowning:

-Iakeo

I’ve read all this before, except it was published by Noam Chomsky, and parroted by Martin Sheen, John Kerry, and Joan Baez, among others, and now Biggum Chief Ward Churchill. El Salvador, still? LOLOLOLOL :worry: :slight_smile:

(This was in response to a deleted post made by an anti-American troll. - CF)

It was never the indians property to begin with, just because they passed through an area and occasionally set up camp in an area did not mean they owned the property. They explicitly denied property rights saying the land was owned by everybody and nobody at the same time. Unowned land cannot be stolen by anyone.

Note to mods, this (the above post) is the kind of stuff you guys should be cleaning up, people like this who try and express their opinions when they are contrary to Objectivism. If he wants to understand how Objectivism explains what has been stated previously he should ask questions to that end, not make unsupported statements of his opinions.

Rational one, What, EXACTLY, is ownership then? They lived on that land (regardless of moving around on it.), used it’s resources, and it was there home. Are you saying that if you had 500,000 acres that you would not move around on it? Especially to protect it’s borders? Just because it’s a collectivist society, does not mean they do not own the land that they use (and that no one used before them.) You are saying that, because we saw them as not having ownership (despite living on that land for how many years, and living off of it), that gave us the moral right to slaughter them, tag them, and move them?

(Asking this question, by the way, does not make me an “Anti-American Troll.” I am interested in the answer, whether I agree with it or not.)

Rational one, What, EXACTLY, is ownership then? 

I know this question is directed at RO, but allow me to answer also.

Ownership is the exclusive right to determine the use and disposal of the property in question. Property is the product of human effort and, properly, belongs to its creator, unless they choose to sell or trade the property.

Following this principle, land per se is not anyone’s creation and therefore cannot be claimed as property. Property rights in otherwise unowned land can only be claimed by applying human effort to transform the land into something new, i.e. by adding something such that what we have is more than mere land. For instance, making a defined section of land productive, either by farming, grazing, mining, manufacturing, etc. transforms it into a productive asset, which, properly, belongs to its creator.

What, then, did the Indians do to qualify as owners of the land? What did they add that transformed the land into something more than mere land?

Exploring the land, hunting its animals, picking its fruits and berries adds nothing and does nothing to change the land into something that can be owned.

They lived on that land (regardless of moving around on it.), used it’s resources, and it was there home.

They lived on portions of the land. And according to the principles above, one can make a case that they could claim the ground under their tee-pee as property on the basis that it now constituted the foundation of their homes. However, one cannot stretch that to include the hundreds of thousands of square miles surrounding one’s home.

  Are you saying that if you had 500,000 acres that you would not move around on it? Especially to protect it’s borders?  Just because it’s a collectivist society, does not mean they do not own the land that they use (and that no one used before them.)

But how did they use it? I use the atmosphere in the sense that I breath it, yet I cannot claim to own it.

You are saying that, because we saw them as not having ownership (despite living on that land for how many years, and living off of it), that gave us the moral right to slaughter them, tag them, and move them?

No, the right that we had was to settle in these areas and make them productive by farming, building communities, etc. This does not mean we had the right to initiate force against existing Indian communities. We did not have the right to seize their tents or destroy whatever other dwellings they had.

However, the Indian’s position was that vast territories belonged to them by “tradition” or because they were the first to see it or live on some portion of it. Furthermore, they asserted (some of them did, anyway) the right to kill any white man that crossed into these territories without permission.

This is an untenable position. You cannot set foot on a continent and declare ownership of it merely because you got there first.

Exploring the land, hunting its animals, picking its fruits and berries adds nothing and does nothing to change the land into something that can be owned.

I can see your point here, but I disagree. I think the continued settlement (regardless if it’s only seasonal) qualifies for ownership. I was also under the impression that they, too, farmed the land. Maybe, I was wrong, but I thought I had read that somewhere.

No, the right that we had was to settle in these areas and make them productive by farming, building communities, etc.  This does not mean we had the right to initiate force against existing Indian communities.  We did not have the right to seize their tents or destroy whatever other dwellings they had.

I agree. However, does the man in Montana who “owns” 10 miles worth of land, open to having his land taken because he is not using (in anyway, shape or form) that land?

However, the Indian’s position was that vast territories belonged to them by “tradition” or because they were the first to see it or live on some portion of it.  Furthermore, they asserted (some of them did, anyway) the right to kill any white man that crossed into these territories without permission.

I agree with you here as well, with a slight differation. I think that had the Native Americans been worried about LOSING land, they might have had set boundries drawn up. It would seem to me that they had not expecting a conquering nation to come in and settle on their lands (used by them for hundreds of years). Had set boundries been made, it would have been easier to sell, or trade.

This is an untenable position.  You cannot set foot on a continent and declare ownership of it merely because you got there first.

Then how else do you claim unowned land? I see what you mean about claiming land by “tradition,” but the land they lived on…well isn’t possession 9/10ths of the law in that case?

Thanks for a well written and thought-out reply. Your stance was a bit clearer to me in this one than was in previous posts. :slight_smile:

First AisA gave an excellent responce that I fully confer with, so I’ll leave it at that.

Second though, the Anti-American Troll comments just had me laughing harder than anything I’ve ever seen on this forum, I still have a big smile on my face. :wink: Sorry Styles I’m not trying to be rude or anything, I just think it’s funny as hell. And I could never explain this to anyone outside this forum either. Damn!