Windows Vista DRM:

so I don’t need to add much but to bring up the aspect of ‘fair use’ that protects the consumer’s right to transfer media to convenient means of playback, such as making a cassette copy to play in the car, or making an mp3 copy to play on their portable mp3 player.

Why should people be allowed to make multiple copies without the owner’s permission? This is the issue that you’re dodging. If I want to allow others to make copies of my creation for “their own personal use”, I’ll allow it (License type 1), otherwise I won’t (type 2). This is a market issue, and you’re arguing that the market should not be allowed to set such a distinction.

Mweiss,

I agree with a lot of what you have said. I’m still trying to work out what the basis for my issue with DRM is. Suffice to say something doesn’t seem quite right with the whole issue. I think DRM is something that is unique and doesn’t fit well with “classical” concepts of property. If I buy a table I buy the table not a right to the table (meaning the table maker could swoop in and take it back). If I get virus software it will protect my machine for as long as I pay to receive updates. If I choose not to however I still have the original protection. I hate the idea of needing “permission” every time I want to watch a movie or use a peripheral on my computer and I REALLY I hate the idea of a company using my own computer against me. I guess what I’m saying is that I agree that something doesn’t seem right here.

I hate the idea of needing “permission” every time I want to watch a movie or use a peripheral on my computer and I REALLY I hate the idea of a company using my own computer against me. I guess what I’m saying is that I agree that something doesn’t seem right here.

Do you accept the concept of copyright? Usually, people who don’t like such restrictions also don’t like (or sometimes understand) copyright.

Do you accept the concept of copyright? Usually, people who don’t like such restrictions also don’t like (or sometimes understand) copyright.

That’s a very good question. Looked up copyright on dictionary.com and this is what I got

the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

Even if this isn’t the best definition to use it is interesting due tio the fact that I’ve never actually looked into the definition or concepts of copyrights in ernest. I understand their importance in protecting intellectual property but I haven’t gone any deeper. DRM isn’t the first issue I’ve had with Copyright laws so it would seem I’ll have to do some reading. I know there is at least one thread dealing with copyrights so I’ll have to check that out.

I looked through some stuff including http://www.arl.org/info/frn/copy/timeline.html

So copyrights are a way for people to protect their intellectual property. The purpose of this protection would be for financial gain and for proper recognition. I understand that if I make a copy of a CD and give it to a friend I have robbed the company of money. I purchased something for my own enjoyment then I made a copy and gave it to a friend. But it’s not the making of the copy which harms the company it’s the fact that I have given it to another person. So when did the notion that it was copying that is immoral arise? If I buy something it should belong to me. I have the right to copy it, change it’s form, archive it, etc for my SELF.

If I buy a new CD I believe you’d say I can’t make a copy FOR MYSELF. This is due to the fact that while it seems as though I have purchased a CD I have only purchased a license. If that is the case shouldn’t I be forbidden from singing the song? Shouldn’t I be forbidden from discussing the lyrics with someone? I know I should defiantly be forbidden from being inspired by the song. After-all I just purchased a license to listen to it. I haven’t really purchased anything. It would seem that the current mode of thinking would produce these absurd results.

While I understand the importance of copyright laws I think they need a desperate overhaul. It is the undercutting of the copyright holder which is the immoral act. Bringing it back to Microsoft, it’s none of their business what I do with my computer (unless I’m hacking Windows and distributing it to my friends.) If Vista intentionally inhibits the functionality of a card I purchased form a separate merchant than something immoral is going on. Their product has been expressly designed to destroy/disrupt my property (probably without telling me) and THAT is immoral. Copying personal property for personal use would seem to fall under “fair use” it would seem that “fair use” was thrown to the wayside. Can anyone tell me when?

But it’s not the making of the copy which harms the company it’s the fact that I have given it to another person.

That isn’t really so. Copyright means that the owner of the right has the exclusive right to authorize copies. This means that you cannot make 10 or 2 copies for yourself. (Remember also that IP law is spaghetti-like, so the Fair Use doctrine is an exception to basic IP law). “Harm” isn’t really the right concept to be invoking, so from a legal POV, there may be no harm in violating a person’s rights.

So when did the notion that it was copying that is immoral arise?

That’s encapsulated in 17 USC 106, which states that the copyright owner has the exclusive right to copy or allow copying. The concept “owns” means that the owner has the exclusive right to dispose of, and “copyright” refers to the right to copy. Thus if you buy a book, you may burn, boil or bury (or give away) the book, because the physical book is your property. You do not own the right to copy. So to copy something – to claim ownership of something that is not your by right – is an immoral act. (Actually, it’s as frequently an ignorant act, since most people don’t understand that some other person owns the right to make copies). So basically, you just didn’t understand what you bought – the right to the one physical object, and not the right to make copies. The right to make copies still rests with the copyright owner.

If I buy a new CD I believe you’d say I can’t make a copy FOR MYSELF.

Yes, that’s correct (although you may actually be able to, that is, there could be a law that allows it: hire an IP attorney if you want a professional opinion).

If that is the case shouldn’t I be forbidden from singing the song? Shouldn’t I be forbidden from discussing the lyrics with someone? I know I should defiantly be forbidden from being inspired by the song.

Read the law again. You can discuss the lyrics and even quote the lyrics to a limited extent (given the Fair Use laws). You’re just being hyperbolic in implying that the law prohibits being inspired by lyrics. You can definitely get in real legal trouble of you steal someone’s song and start performing it – plenty of cases of that in the courts. (The law distinguishes public and private acts: copyright gives the owner the right to control public performances, but not private ones meaning singing in your shower of playing a DVD at home for friends).

After-all I just purchased a license to listen to it. I haven’t really purchased anything.

Why didn’t you purchase a performance license? That is what you’re supposed to do. Yes, it costs more, but it is not your property!!. I know DJs do it all the time, and it is wrong. Pay the fee. Pay the fee. PAY THE FEE!!

Bringing it back to Microsoft, it’s none of their business what I do with my computer (unless I’m hacking Windows and distributing it to my friends.)

True, but it’s none of your business what they do to their program. If you don’t like this new plan, switch to Linux / Unix. I think the fact that there are competitors will keep MS on their toes, so that this doesn’t become a major disaster.

If Vista intentionally inhibits the functionality of a card I purchased form a separate merchant than something immoral is going on.

No, not given that you agreed to allow this to happen. If men with boots and bats were to break into your house and beat you until you installed Vista, then we’d be having a different conversation. But if you get Vista, it will because you agreed to and you accepted all of the terms of their software. Please don’t say “but nobody reads those EULAs”. Read the EULA. Memorize it!

Copying personal property for personal use would seem to fall under “fair use” it would seem that “fair use” was thrown to the wayside. Can anyone tell me when?

Another “ask a lawyer” question. The fair use law doesn’t allow personal-use copying. Now if you want to know the one section of copyright law that really needs fixing, this is it. A reading of the law tells you “Or, maybe not”. I don’t know to what extent the original intent behind “fair use” has gotten officially twisted beyond the commenting / researching idea. As far as I know, making unauthorized personal copies has never been legal in the US, but it has become “de facto okay” because if I were to sue you for making a personal backup copy of my product, I would be limited to recovering actual damages, which would not be worth my while.

Anyhow, personal copies are not part of why there was a “fair use” exception, and the name “fair use” has been corrupted to mean “If I think it’s fair, then I can do it”. It has widely been taken to mean “any amount of copyright violation done in the name of education is okay” (makes life really sucky for somebody who writes textbooks for a living).

The question here isn’t one of what is actually legal but one of what ought to be legal. Law is based on politics, which is based on ethics, which is a branch of philosophy.

Previously I said that the DMCA makes things illegal that “aren’t otherwise.” I suppose what I am getting at is that I am comparing the legal system to a moral standard and that the legal system was worse, according to the moral standard, after the DMCA than it was before it.

Microsoft can produce whatever OS it wants. The problem is that the legal system is actually banning alternatives. Linux may soon become illegal because it fails to enforce copying restrictions and because its open-source nature would make it too easy for anyone to just remove any copying restrictions from the code and recompile. It is already illegal to write open-source drivers for wireless networking cards for a similar reason (it would be possible to alter the code for the drivers in such a way as to program the cards to violate FCC restrictions).

Also, it is not true that the DMCA preceded DRM. Various forms of copy protection were in use on microcomputer software in the 1980s. Software companies abandoned them because they weren’t effective and because they inconvenienced legitimate users. They were responding to market pressures in doing so.

DRM cannot survive in the marketplace apart from laws that make it illegal to produce stuff that doesn’t have DRM. These laws, that protect DRM from the market, infringe individual rights. The recently proposed PROTECT act is an example. (It makes it illegal to produce a device capable of recording satellite radio without putting DRM on the recording. It also requires any streaming broadcaster to put DRM on his broadcast.)

To my knowledge, Objectivism supports the right to property, but the right to property is not arbitrary. Remember that the U.S. became a much more moral (and more capitalist) nation by abolishing a certain form of “private property” in 1863 or so.

I suppose what I am getting at is that I am comparing the legal system to a moral standard and that the legal system was worse, according to the moral standard, after the DMCA than it was before it.

I’d consider the possibility that things actually got better; so what makes things worse in your opinion? Doing something to protect property rights from the literally hundred of millions of rights-violators with computers out there who think “If I copy it, it doesn’t harm anyone” would be a good thing. Slamming the door shut on home-brew copyright violations is a positive move, and at least potentially, that is what this does.

Linux may soon become illegal because it fails to enforce copying restrictions and because its open-source nature would make it too easy for anyone to just remove any copying restrictions from the code and recompile.

Is there some part of the law (please cite the actual law) that suggests that this is a possibility? I.e. is there now a statute that requires all OSs to contain copy-protection code? That would be a good example of an immoral aspect of the law.

It is already illegal to write open-source drivers for wireless networking cards for a similar reason (it would be possible to alter the code for the drivers in such a way as to program the cards to violate FCC restrictions).

Okay, so that would be another thing I’d like to see evidence of.

Also, it is not true that the DMCA preceded DRM.

In this context, I was under the impression that we were discussing a specific law-driven move by MS.

DRM cannot survive in the marketplace apart from laws that make it illegal to produce stuff that doesn’t have DRM.

I suspect that you’re right, because the urge for the unearned seems to be very strong these days. Although MS could make money off of content-producers by helping to enforce the rights of the copyright owner, this will lead to legions of whingeing customers who are unhappy with MSs ham-handed implementation and their cooperation with evil money-grubbing industries, so I do think they will blink.

To the extent that the laws require businesses to self-sacrificially protect the rights of others, those laws are wrong. I don’t think such laws are implausible, I’m just not yet persuaded that such laws exist. Yet. If you know where in the Cornell compendium the statutes are, that would pretty much decide the matter.

I’d consider the possibility that things actually got better; so what makes things worse in your opinion? Doing something to protect property rights from the literally hundred of millions of rights-violators with computers out there who think “If I copy it, it doesn’t harm anyone” would be a good thing. Slamming the door shut on home-brew copyright violations is a positive move, and at least potentially, that is what this does.

You have to make sure that “doing something” doesn’t infringe the rights of anyone else.

It would actually be very easy for the government to set up a police force that surfed the internet just like everyone else – no special wiretapping or anything – and looked around for pirated media, just like any typical pirating kid would. Once they started to get a pirated file, they would have the IP address (or addresses) it was coming from, and it would be easy to start a legal proceeding. One problem is that the damages have to be high in order for it to be worth a court’s time – but why use a court every time? If these things were dealt with in the same manner as traffic tickets, it would get better results.

If the cops cannot be trusted to monitor the Internet, then let the good people turn the bad ones in. I think that much of our legal system, historically, used to be based on that sort of idea – that the government doesn’t have to monitor everything to discover crimes, because people will report suspicious activity. If a large percentage (like 90%) of the people are willing to tolerate piracy, such a problem cannot be solved by the government; it has to be solved by philosophy. But even 10% peer reporting would drive piracy far underground, as the pirates would have a hard time telling which peers were other pirates and which would turn them in. There can also be a bounty for catching pirates.

There is no need for the legal system to remove the “Record” button from people’s devices.

Is there some part of the law (please cite the actual law) that suggests that this is a possibility? I.e. is there now a statute that requires all OSs to contain copy-protection code? That would be a good example of an immoral aspect of the law.

I don’t think this is part of any existing law, but laws have been proposed (and defeated) that would have such an effect. The SSSCA was defeated.

Okay, so [the illegality of distributing open-source drivers for wireless networking cards] would be another thing I’d like to see evidence of.

Only certain wireless networking cards are affected. Some cards enforce FCC regulations in hardware, and therefore no driver can possibly cause the card to violate the regulations. In such a case, open-source drivers are okay. But some cards depend on software to enforce the FCC regulations. In this case, making the software open-source would allow users to tinker with the regulatory enforcement and possibly cause the device to no longer be certified (or maybe even be ineligible for certification).

It’s one thing if a radio transmitter, for example, has a variable resistor on the inside that, if the owner takes the device apart and adjusts it, puts the transmitter out of compliance with FCC rules. It’s another thing if the radio transmitter has a knob on the outside labeled “Do Not Touch”… A closed-source driver can be deemed part of the device, but an open-source driver is “outside” because it can be modified by the user.

This Slashdot thread mentions that IBM was interpreting an FCC regulation to mean that their Lenovo laptop wasn’t FCC-certified (and therefore shouldn’t operate) if it has an uncertified wireless network card attached to it.

This article on ars technica says that Intel is making that claim about one of its wireless networking devices.

I’ve read that technically the FCC regulations apply to the user, not the manufacturer; “modifications may void the user’s authority to operate the equipment.” But if the driver enforces FCC regulations, it is technically part of the device. It may affect whether the FCC can certify the device.

In this context, I was under the impression that we were discussing a specific law-driven move by MS.

MS may be moving in anticipation of a law that they think will pass. But it is possible that they expect no such law and that they are taking the business risk of pushing an unpopular feature now, in the hopes that people will eventually warm up to it. Microsoft has done that before. (For example, Microsoft pressured computer manufacturers to include CD-ROM drives in their computers before the drives were popular. People now like CD-ROM drives.)

I suspect that you’re right [that DRM cannot survive in the marketplace apart from laws that require it], because the urge for the unearned seems to be very strong these days.

It is not “unearned” to want to control the media and devices that you paid for.

Although MS could make money off of content-producers by helping to enforce the rights of the copyright owner, this will lead to legions of [whining?] customers who are unhappy with MS’s ham-handed implementation and their cooperation with evil money-grubbing industries, so I do think they will blink.

It is good and honest for a company to want to make money. I begin to worry, however, when it looks like they are willing to give up money in exchange for having power and control. This comes from different sources:

(1) The “political entrepreneur” type of businessman who is just more interested in having power over people than making money

(2) Product liability laws requiring businessmen to try to prevent their customers from doing activities that will get the business sued

(3) Government regulations and laws requiring businessmen to enforce rules against customers

All three are products of the mixed economy. Under pure capitalism, (2) and (3) would be illegal, and (1) would likely be driven out of the market by better alternatives.

To the extent that the laws require businesses to self-sacrificially protect the rights of others, those laws are wrong.

Even if the business would benefit from it, the act of forcing it on them makes it wrong.

Although I don’t think copyright itself is debatable, I think it’s debatable whether copyright should be extended (and it is an extension) to allow the copyright holder, or the government acting on his behalf, to control every aspect of every device that your copy of his work passes through, on the grounds that you must be totally prevented from being able to make a copy.

I don’t think such laws are implausible, I’m just not yet persuaded that such laws exist. Yet. If you know where in the Cornell compendium the statutes are, that would pretty much decide the matter.

Even if the laws aren’t on the books yet, they’re coming. It seems that nothing stands in their way except a bunch of hippies who want to eliminate copyright altogether.

It seems that the DRM debate is shaping up to be one of totalitarianism versus anarchy.

It would actually be very easy for the government to set up a police force that surfed the internet just like everyone else – no special wiretapping or anything – and looked around for pirated media, just like any typical pirating kid would.

True, but this goes for businesses, governments, thieves and terrorists alike: surfing the internet is easy. As far as I know, it’s only the government (the US government, and a few other governments like it) which are legally restricted in the snooping that they can legally do. It’s a fact that in order to protect rights, the government ultimately has to use force; it doesn’t constitute an argument against government protecting rights that the government can also use the same methods to violate rights. However, in this case, I don’t believe that there is any reason to be concerned, since the underlying wrongful act (copyright violation) is not a crime against the state, so the government has no standing to initiate proceedings against illegal copiers. That responsibility falls on the copyright holder.

If the cops cannot be trusted to monitor the Internet, then let the good people turn the bad ones in.

Whether or not the cops can be trusted to monitor the Internet, good people should turn in the thieves, indeed. One version of such good people would be software and hardware makers who work to prevent thieves from violating copyrights. I don’t know whether the technology being invisioned includes a reporting function, or simply a blocking function. The thing is, I’m not certain whether a person can be sued for attempted copyright violation, though they certain should be. I’ll see if I can figure that out.

It is not “unearned” to want to control the media and devices that you paid for.

Right, I was referring to the fact that vast numbers of people want to use the devices that they paid for to violate the rights of others.

I think we agree that there should be no law forcing manufacturers to do this or that. There’s a separate question of whether a person who knowingly aids and abets the violation of other peoples right should be held liable (as in the Grokster case, or Moussaoui). I would say that they should.

Let’s say there’s a software manufacturer. We’ll call it “TinySquish.” It makes an operating system called “TinySquish Panorama.” The EULA is presented for acceptance after the end user opens the box, puts the disc in the drive, and runs the installation program. The EULA contains the following clause:

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

Furthermore, let’s say there’s a software retailer. We’ll call it “Most Advantageous Purchase.” It sells TinySquish Panorama. The store’s return policy contains the following clause:

Opened computer software, movies, music and video games can be exchanged for the identical item but cannot be returned for a refund.

Finally, let’s say there’s a customer. We’ll call him “Johnny.” Johnny can’t read the EULA unless he purchases and opens the software. Johnny does so, but decides to reject the EULA. Johnny tries to return the product pursuant to the EULA, but Most Advantageous Purchase refuses to accept a return, offering only to exchange the software for an identical copy (with an identical, equally objectionable EULA).

Here’s the question: Is Johnny hosed? The EULA only says he can have a refund “if applicable” from the retailer. The retailer says one isn’t applicable. Has Johnny essentially paid the full retail price simply to be given the opportunity to read and reject the EULA?

-Q

Too bad Johny didn’t buy from Microsoft because they solicit user feedback for their EULA’s and make them available online.

Here’s the question: Is Johnny hosed?

This is homework, right?? Well, at that level, who the hell knows? You’re only hosed when SCOTUS turns you down. I actually bought that software from that store, and yeah, I was hosed, though I didn’t hire a suit to recover the $25.99 in damages. I’d say he is facially hosed, but no doubt there is lots of doctrine out there that can be used for a non-hosing conclusion.

The store’s policy is prominently enough displayed, which is the primary consideration. The basic sales contract involves Johnny and the store, not Johnny and TSP (short for ToughSh*tProducts). Johnny elected to buy the product knowing the risks. He could have requested of a sales agent that he be allowed to read the EULA before buying (the store can spend the dime to open a pack, for such business purposes), and did not. He could have requested a printed copy of the EULA from TSP, in advance. He also knows, or should know, that software is licensed and not owned (you own the copy of the medium). The concept of “license” implies “conditions on use”, for example “can only be used on Sundays”. He acted in full knowledge and disregard of the actual or potential risks, and has no grounds for action against either the store of TSP (and indeed, the closest I could imagine there being a cause of action would be against the store and not the vendor). Hosed, and deservedly so.

No, not homework. Inspired by discussions of shrinkwrap agreements and duress in contracts class, though.

Both Davids make a similar point - Johnny should have read the EULA, made available by TinySquish in other ways, before purchasing. But what guarantee does Johnny have that the EULA offered for perusal is identical to the EULA in the box? It’s the EULA in the box he has to agree to, not the one on the website, or in the other box.

Could Johnny keep and use the software, but try to make the argument that he agreed to the terms of the EULA under duress; specifically that his only meaningful options were either to accept or lose his purchase price?

-Q

That seems like a stretch, the EULAs not being the same. It’s not like a fortune cookie.

It’s not like a fortune cookie.

Because chi forfend they sport differing lucky numbers.

But what guarantee does Johnny have that the EULA offered for perusal is identical to the EULA in the box? It’s the EULA in the box he has to agree to, not the one on the website, or in the other box.

Primarily this is between Johnny and the vendor: he should buy only if the vendor promises that the sample EULA is the same as what’s in the box, or makes an exception to the no returns policy. The fact that he can’t get the vendor to act in a way that benefits Johnny doesn’t mean that he has been coerced into buying the product. For one, he could just go directly to the right-holder – and if the right-holder doesn’t want to deal with him, Johnny should get a different product.

His only meaningful choices are to accept the risk, or refuse the offer.

I’m pretty sure I agree. I think it would be wise of Most Advantageous Purchase to make EULAs for the products they sell available on demand. It would avoid those problems of upset customers trying to return opened software, and would keep the customer in the store, rather than allowing the customer to leave (in order to research the EULA elsewhere) and perhaps end up making his purchase somewhere else. I might try asking for an EULA next time I visit my friendly neighborhood Most Advantageous Purchase and want to buy some software. It will be interesting to see if they’re willing to accommodate me.

-Q

I just spotted this on Slashdot… it appears that Microsoft has replied to the Peter Gutmann paper that sort-of indirectly started this thread.

I have not finished reading Microsoft’s reply yet, but I wanted to post the URL here so others could read it.

I’ll try to sum it up:

Either Microsoft excludes DRM and gets blasted for not supporting HD, or it includes DRM and is blasted for restricting viewing. If you don’t like DRM, complain to RIAA/MPAA, or just don’t patronize them.